TSA mess and the police

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Oh my sweet Lord, tell me you are not comparing the horror of 9/11 to being frisked in an airport...PLEASE.

The straws being grasped at are mind boggling here.

No comparison drawn - it was an example of how a person can experience a trauma and collect disability. If a person has been raped and some random event were to cause a mental breakdown - well, follow the trail of breadcrumbs.

Ease up on the condescension. :rolleyes1
 
No comparison drawn - it was an example of how a person can experience a trauma and collect disability. If a person has been raped and some random event were to cause a mental breakdown - well, follow the trail of breadcrumbs.

Ease up on the condescension. :rolleyes1

Oh thank goodness. I thought for a minute...well. Whew!

I do still maintain that the number of folks suffering severe permanent trauma from a pat-down, in so much as they would be forever kept from flying and thus lose their jobs and have to go on disability is going to be nearly incalculably small.
 
Years later, some were still collecting long term disability for the mental trauma. So, I could see a similar thing here. If a person experiences a severe enough mental trauma, they could collect long term disability (assuming they have an LTD policy - I don't think that Social Security would deem the inability to fly because of a phobia a disability). But the burden of proof would be on the person making the trauma/disability claim.

I'm not so sure about the SS.. If the job demanded that a person fly and they are suffering from PTSD that would be aggravated in any way - such as the fear of the possibility of being chosen at random for a pat down - or an actual bad experience with one that worsened their condition, I'm pretty sure they would qualify for SSD..

I know 2 people who receive SSD on the basis of PTSD (that was totally unrelated to the actual job itself), but other issues that increased the problems associated with the PTSD put them in the classification of being unable to work at all... I'm not saying that it's easy to get - especially with PTSD - lots and lots of professional documentation required - turned down the first time (which the majority of those applying are - regardless of the reason), but with the help of an attorney, one was approved in 12 months, the other in 5 months (after the initial denials)..

Workman's Comp might not be a possibility - but until someone actual applies for it (assuming they had a very bad experience based on these new measures) and also assuming that very, very frequent flying is a mandatory requirement of the job, we really don't know what would happen in that situation..
 
Former VP of HR here -
No to workers comp - there is no injury/incident that occured
Nope to wrongful termination - the company has not changed any rules - the government did
ADA - what would that matter?
(now of course I am speaking broadly and cannot account for the laws/regs of every state)

Again there is NOTHING stopping any person with a disability from flying. The TSA has not banned flights by the handicapped - have they?

The only thing stopping the disabled from traveling is themselves. And it is simply a falsehood to claim otherwise.

I am flying to Nassau next week and considering it was snowing this morning am thrilled to do so. If selected for extra security - eh - so what.

You can't say that, being a HR employee does in no way qualify you to make such determinations. Even Dr would have to weigh each case individually, same would go for a judge. WOW, for a good part of the post, just WOW.
 

Oh thank goodness. I thought for a minute...well. Whew!

I do still maintain that the number of folks suffering severe permanent trauma from a pat-down, in so much as they would be forever kept from flying and thus lose their jobs and have to go on disability is going to be nearly incalculably small.

May I ask if you are a mental health professional? Because I am, and I am seeing in your posts as well as others a distinct lack of understanding of the very real trauma that these scanners and pat downs can inflict on those with certain mental health issues (phobias, PTSD, panic attacks and numerous others). Whether a chain of events can be established that leads to disability payments, who knows? Sadly, probably not, given the rampant disregard that our society in general displays for those with these issues. Instead, it's more likely that they will lose their jobs and not receive the benefit of disability payments.

Contrary to what many here seem to believe, mental health issues are every bit as real, as painful and as difficult to overcome as any physical disorder. Yet those are being minimized nearly to the point of exclusion. Some people would love to just "get over it" but they can't. And that shouldn't mean that they simply cannot fly.
 
Oh thank goodness. I thought for a minute...well. Whew!

I do still maintain that the number of folks suffering severe permanent trauma from a pat-down, in so much as they would be forever kept from flying and thus lose their jobs and have to go on disability is going to be nearly incalculably small.

I think that number will be zero, but some may have a previous trauma that created a mental condition that has not healed sufficiently to allow them to submit themselves to something like this. They might either lose their job or need some additional therapy

But there will be many who will try to make money from this. Such is life in America today. :sad2:

A little story from my flight home from Chicago last night. It was a 5:04 flight from ORD to Allentown, and our flight was delayed. We finally board, about an hour late but looking fine. As we wait for de-icing, after the doors were closed and the gangway pulled back, a man in the front of the plane has a panic attack. He didn't scream or rant - he just turned white and told the stewardess that he had to get off the plane - that he might die if he flew on that plane last night.

Well, it took almost an hour, but they got a crew back out to pull the gangway back up and open up the door to let the guy off. I really felt bad for the guy. He was clearly sorry for the delay that he was causing everyone else, but he was terrified. Not logical, and he knew it, but he could not help himself.

People have phobias, and panic attacks and anxiety and all sorts of other mental issues. I can see how this sort of heightened security could raise anxiety levels.
 
I'm not so sure about the SS.. If the job demanded that a person fly and they are suffering from PTSD that would be aggravated in any way - such as the fear of the possibility of being chosen at random for a pat down - or an actual bad experience with one that worsened their condition, I'm pretty sure they would qualify for SSD..


SSD does not care what your current job is - you have to be unable to work, period. Flying is not a requirement for more than 90% of the working world. I don't see it happening.
 
You can't say that, being a HR employee does in no way qualify you to make such determinations. Even Dr would have to weigh each case individually, same would go for a judge. WOW, for a good part of the post, just WOW.

Unless the initial trauma came from the search, there would be no injury. In cases like this, they trace it back to the root cause. So, in the case of the girl who was raped, she was not harmed or injured during the patdown. Her injury (physical and mental) came at the hands of her rapist. Workers Comp would not cover that kind of thing.
 
May I ask if you are a mental health professional? Because I am, and I am seeing in your posts as well as others a distinct lack of understanding of the very real trauma that these scanners and pat downs can inflict on those with certain mental health issues (phobias, PTSD, panic attacks and numerous others). Whether a chain of events can be established that leads to disability payments, who knows? Sadly, probably not, given the rampant disregard that our society in general displays for those with these issues. Instead, it's more likely that they will lose their jobs and not receive the benefit of disability payments.

Contrary to what many here seem to believe, mental health issues are every bit as real, as painful and as difficult to overcome as any physical disorder. Yet those are being minimized nearly to the point of exclusion. Some people would love to just "get over it" but they can't. And that shouldn't mean that they simply cannot fly.

:thumbsup2

(Bolding in the above post mine..) Thank you once again for bringing this issue to the forefront.. Many people have very little knowledge in this area - or just choose to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.. It breaks my heart that people with these types of issues have to see, hear, and/or read some of the heartless comments that uninformed indviduals make..:(
 
May I ask if you are a mental health professional? Because I am, and I am seeing in your posts as well as others a distinct lack of understanding of the very real trauma that these scanners and pat downs can inflict on those with certain mental health issues (phobias, PTSD, panic attacks and numerous others). Whether a chain of events can be established that leads to disability payments, who knows? Sadly, probably not, given the rampant disregard that our society in general displays for those with these issues. Instead, it's more likely that they will lose their jobs and not receive the benefit of disability payments.

Contrary to what many here seem to believe, mental health issues are every bit as real, as painful and as difficult to overcome as any physical disorder. Yet those are being minimized nearly to the point of exclusion. Some people would love to just "get over it" but they can't. And that shouldn't mean that they simply cannot fly.

I don't think she was saying to just get over it. I'm not Jennais so I can't speak 100% for her but what I got from it was that the % of people suffering from PTSD etc and not being able to go through the scanners may be very small. Out of the total flying population those with these type of disabilities may be very very small.


I think the overall point is that with any system, there is going to be a small percentage that may be "exceptions". We are not saying that they are not important but maybe some type of procedure may need to be put in place to handle those exceptions.

Similar to let's say the ADA act, where hotels had to put in systems to help the disabled navigate. You don't change your entire hotel but simply enhance a portion of it to accomodate those with special needs.

There has always been a small % of the population that flying in general is very traumatic so it continues to be a balancing act. It doesn't mean you have to throw the entire security process out the window, maybe more of a "how do we handle the exceptions" situation.

So I don't think she meant we are totally disregarding those with special needs simply that out of the general population they may be a small percentage.
 
Flying is not a requirement for more than 90% of the working world. I don't see it happening.

I understand that (and thought I made that clear in my post - but maybe not).. If flying is a mandatory job requirement, then the game changes..
 
Please tell me you are not saying that the PTSD that retired so many of my friends who survived 9/11 is not in their imagination because it sounds like you are saying their pain isn't real. I really hope I just misread you but I'm not sure what to think.

PTSD is real and it causes ongoing pain for many people, I don't think its ok to make light of real disabilities, any disabilities whether they are visible or not.



I read what Jennasis is saying is that these pat downs alone should not cause PSTD.

However, what I read others as saying is that they may have traumas where this enhanced pat down would be a problem even if it isn't to the a drags Joe or Jill.

You can't really predict how a rape or molestation survivor would handle such a search.

However, it is unlikely a disability (in this discussion re: flying for work) since it doesn't rule them out of working. Just means they cannot do that job perhaps if the trauma from a minute chance of being selected would be that great.


Example: I am afraid of heights. I cannot work as a window washer in Manhatten. My fear is not a disability. So I just get another job. Same deal with the job requiring flying and a potential search. Keep in mind thus doesn't take into account your ability to get a job elsewhere. Just that yOu physically could work elsewhere.
 
I understand that (and thought I made that clear in my post - but maybe not).. If flying is a mandatory job requirement, then the game changes..

So what we have to do is to try and stop working in "absolutes". If flying is only mandartory for 10% of the population (like me. lol) and of that 10% maybe another 5% have some sort of disability that make the pat downs not feasible, lets work on some alternatives to handle that very small part of your population.

I think one of the problems we have is that we are always searching for the "magic bullet", one size fits all, works all the time solution.
We do that with security, with the economy, with the environment, with education.

The scanners and patdowns won't be feasible for every one, that does not mean get rid of them for the 90% they may work for, but rather come up with alternatives to help the others.
 
WOW, for a good part of the post, just WOW.

:confused3 Can you explain your wow to the statement below?

The only thing stopping the disabled from traveling is themselves. And it is simply a falsehood to claim otherwise.

The TSA is not telling the disabled to stay home. The disabled person is making that determination. And they are well within their right to do so. Just like anyone for any reason can decide to stop getting on an airplane.

It is not really wow-worthy. Very sad actually when someone listens to the fringe.
 
I understand that (and thought I made that clear in my post - but maybe not).. If flying is a mandatory job requirement, then the game changes..

Disability isn't paid to someone because they can't do one job. It is paid when they cannot do a portion or none of any job.

My mom had medical discharge from military. She could not do military. She tried other jobs. When it was determined her body could not do any job, that is what got the ball rolling to permanent disability status. Of course it gets more complicated than that.
 
I read what Jennasis is saying is that these pat downs alone should not cause PSTD.

However, what I read others as saying is that they may have traumas where this enhanced pat down would be a problem even if it isn't to the a drags Joe or Jill.

You can't really predict how a rape or molestation survivor would handle such a search.

However, it is unlikely a disability (in this discussion re: flying for work) since it doesn't rule them out of working. Just means they cannot do that job perhaps if the trauma from a minute chance of being selected would be that great.


Example: I am afraid of heights. I cannot work as a window washer in Manhatten. My fear is not a disability. So I just get another job. Same deal with the job requiring flying and a potential search. Keep in mind thus doesn't take into account your ability to get a job elsewhere. Just that yOu physically could work elsewhere.

I never said the search would be significant enough to trigger PTSD in an otherwise healthy person who does not already suffer some degree of the condition
 
I never said the search would be significant enough to trigger PTSD in an otherwise healthy person.

I was repsonding to what I thought Jennasis was saying. I made no assumptions. As it were, I thought we were discussing the part of the population that will or might be traumatized due to being a victim in the past of a rape or molestation. I fall in the latter category and really really do not want to be searched for reasons I have already posted about.

The search alone won't cause trauma, but it could make me go to a place I do not wish to go. IOW, I could/would relive a past trauma. I have had some medical treatments that have done the same thing. So the idea is not unlikely.

I made no assumptions out of your post. I am simply adding to the discussion from my perspective.
 
I don't think she was saying to just get over it. I'm not Jennais so I can't speak 100% for her but what I got from it was that the % of people suffering from PTSD etc and not being able to go through the scanners may be very small. Out of the total flying population those with these type of disabilities may be very very small.


I think the overall point is that with any system, there is going to be a small percentage that may be "exceptions". We are not saying that they are not important but maybe some type of procedure may need to be put in place to handle those exceptions.

Similar to let's say the ADA act, where hotels had to put in systems to help the disabled navigate. You don't change your entire hotel but simply enhance a portion of it to accomodate those with special needs.

There has always been a small % of the population that flying in general is very traumatic so it continues to be a balancing act. It doesn't mean you have to throw the entire security process out the window, maybe more of a "how do we handle the exceptions" situation.

So I don't think she meant we are totally disregarding those with special needs simply that out of the general population they may be a small percentage.

OK, you've raised some very valid comparisons here. I think the ADA is an excellent example. The problem then becomes, what determines who does or does not fall into the "exception" group, and how are the people in that group processed through security? If the supposed "point" of all of this is that either "everyone" or a "random sampling" goes through enhanced screening, then wouldn't exempting those who have these issues defeat that point? What's to stop a terrorist from faking a mental health disorder, going through security with the "exceptions" and then blowing up the plane?

If there is a different type of security that is just as effective but not so intrusive as to trigger these mental health concerns, then why use it only the "exceptions"? Why wasn't that rolled out in the first place?

I'm not trying to pump you for answers. These are rhetorical questions, based on the points that you raised. I'm not sure there are any good answers here.

However, it is unlikely a disability (in this discussion re: flying for work) since it doesn't rule them out of working. Just means they cannot do that job perhaps if the trauma from a minute chance of being selected would be that great.


Example: I am afraid of heights. I cannot work as a window washer in Manhatten. My fear is not a disability. So I just get another job. Same deal with the job requiring flying and a potential search. Keep in mind thus doesn't take into account your ability to get a job elsewhere. Just that yOu physically could work elsewhere.

But I think you have to take the ability to get another job into consideration. If someone who can't fly due to panic attacks on the plane itself takes a new job knowing that he'll have to fly for work, that's kind of his own fault. But if a rape survivor with PTSD triggered by the new security procedures was able to fly for work, but can't now, that's a whole different ball game. The person WAS able to do the job at the time of hiring, but now the rules have changed. To use your example, suppose you were happily working on the ground floor of a Manhattan office building. The next day you went into work and your employer had expanded the job requirements--now you HAVE to be a window washer one day a month. What do you do? In this case it isn't the employer's fault, but it isn't the employee's fault either. I don't know what should happen. But it doesn't seem right for the employee to be out in the cold.

:confused3 Can you explain your wow to the statement below?

The only thing stopping the disabled from traveling is themselves. And it is simply a falsehood to claim otherwise.

The TSA is not telling the disabled to stay home. The disabled person is making that determination. And they are well within their right to do so. Just like anyone for any reason can decide to stop getting on an airplane.

It is not really wow-worthy. Very sad actually when someone listens to the fringe.

That's so wrong on so many levels. If you CAN'T do something, then you can't do it. If it's a requirement of the TSA that you are not able to meet, then effectively it's the TSA stopping you from flying on the airplane.

Disability isn't paid to someone because they can't do one job. It is paid when they cannot do a portion or none of any job.

My mom had medical discharge from military. She could not do military. She tried other jobs. When it was determined her body could not do any job, that is what got the ball rolling to permanent disability status. Of course it gets more complicated than that.

This was my parents' experience as well. This just sort of falls into a weird gray area. It's not the employer's fault, it's not the employee's fault, but ultimately both are going to lose out if the employee can no longer do the job.
 
... If you CAN'T do something, then you can't do it. If it's a requirement of the TSA that you are not able to meet, then effectively it's the TSA stopping you from flying on the airplane...

No, it is your condition stopping you.
 
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