TSA mess and the police

[Tricia1972]

How do you know all this? What is your security clearance? What is your profession? What is your need to know, even if you have a security clearance?

Do you really believe that those who really know the answers to these questions release all the answers? Do you really believe they should? Did you ever think about National Security? Have you thought about releasing some of those answers could increase danger?

I have been a military spouse for twenty years. I have learned that there are many times and many things, even at times concerning where my husband is and what he is doing, that I don't have clearance or need to know. For example, he was gone for three weeks last summer that I still have no idea where he was or what he was doing. I don't have a need to know.

Sometimes we just have to accept that we don't have all the answers. We don't have to like it, but we do need to acknowledge it. Remember the saying from WWII? Loose lips sink ships. As spouses we are taught not to talk, even with each other, about anything that could risk operational security. Those with the actual clearances and need to know have even more reason to keep their mouths shut. Security leaks are bad. Sometimes very bad. Sometimes getting people killed. Personally, I don't think your curiosity or feelings of entitlement are worth my husband's, or any soldier's, life.

Thank you for sharing this. I think you made some excellent points.

A little off topic, but this is something that bugs me in general about the media. We know too much too soon for the sake of news. I'm ok finding out later or not at all if it saves the lives of those that work to protect us or if it works better to protect us as a general public.

 

[JLTraveling]

With the government employees, at least, we can be sure that there is some kind of process put in place to determine what their qualifications and standards should be, and a process put in place to administer those qualifications and standards.

I can only assume from this statement that you have never actually been employed by the federal government. My father spent 15 years in a reasonably high level federal position with secret clearances. When his supervisor retired, he was replaced with someone who not only did not meet the documented qualifications and standards for a supervisory role, he did not meet the documented qualifications and standards for an entry-level position in that field! That wasn't an isolated incident, either. It was just the most egregious example. So no, I for one can't "be sure" that there is an actual process that is evenly applied across the board.

 

[kaytieeldr]

"New methods of security implemented at airports across the nation are being described as invasive and invasive by passengers,

Invasive and invasive? There's a difference? I have trouble trusting the content of any news report where the writing is inaccurate.

Not directed at the person who posted the article/link in ANY way, but specifically at the article, its writing and its content.

 

[teskak]

OT, but I would be interested in hearing the comments from anybody who has read Tom Clancy's novels.

Yes novels, but he published a story based on a passenger plane being driven into a joint sitting of Congress in the mid 90's as a suicide attempt - but in this one the baddie was Japanese.

Similarly he published in the mid 2000's (Tail of the Tiger??) a novel based on a group of terrorists using unregistered fully automatic weapons to go mad in a set of shopping centres. In my view that is far more of a risk as nobody checks the gym bags of shoppers in the malls and while from other threads there are many posters with concealed carry permits, are the non-law enforcement people in a position with skills & determination to go against a group of terrorists with AK47s?

Do you think Mall Cops have the goods either? What is the point of submitting to groin pats by TSA when some lunatics adopting a plan published several years ago can cause devastation beyond that of a commercial aircraft if they were to attack at the busiest time of the year?

Back to regularly scheduled debates...

 

[DMRick]

I found this part of the post you quoted very interesting. I wonder if the TSA has insurance, so we don't end up having to pay to defend these lawsuits:

Although the lawsuits have publicized the privacy concerns associated with the screening techniques, some professors at the Law School have expressed doubts that the TSA's new system could actually be declared unconstitutional.
"I'm glad that our students are learning how to be lawyers, but I wouldn't bet on their winning this lawsuit," Prof. Mark Tushnet said in an e-mail to the Harvard Law Record. "It might survive a motion to dismiss, but once the TSA puts forward something about the technology and the threats it's dealing with, the lawsuit's chances will drop precipitously."

****************

Someone up thread asked about lawsuits. Interesting reading:

Harvard Law Students Sue TSA
Federal suit claims "nude body scanners" and enhanced pat-downs are unconstitutional

By Jenny Paul and Joey Seiler

Published: Wednesday, December 1, 2010

..."The lawsuit claims the mandatory screening techniques violate the students' Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure. The suit seeks a permanent injunction against the use of either screening method without reasonable suspicion or probable cause and a declaratory judgment stating that mandatory screening using these techniques is unconstitutional where probable cause or reasonable suspicion do not exist."...

 

[olwyngdh]

A little off topic, but this is something that bugs me in general about the media. We know too much too soon for the sake of news. I'm ok finding out later or not at all if it saves the lives of those that work to protect us or if it works better to protect us as a general public.

I agree, even though when I was younger and more naive (more innocent?) I did want all the answers *right now!* Now that I am an old soldiers wife, I have a little better idea of why we don't need all the answers all the time. The whole WikiLeaks idea, whatever form it comes in really bothers me because I know how dangerous it can be for not only those in uniform, but for those they protect.

 

[OceanAnnie]

I found this part of the post you quoted very interesting. I wonder if the TSA has insurance, so we don't end up having to pay to defend these lawsuits:

Although the lawsuits have publicized the privacy concerns associated with the screening techniques, some professors at the Law School have expressed doubts that the TSA's new system could actually be declared unconstitutional.
"I'm glad that our students are learning how to be lawyers, but I wouldn't bet on their winning this lawsuit," Prof. Mark Tushnet said in an e-mail to the Harvard Law Record. "It might survive a motion to dismiss, but once the TSA puts forward something about the technology and the threats it's dealing with, the lawsuit's chances will drop precipitously."

****************

Someone up thread asked about lawsuits. Interesting reading:

Harvard Law Students Sue TSA
Federal suit claims "nude body scanners" and enhanced pat-downs are unconstitutional

By Jenny Paul and Joey Seiler

Published: Wednesday, December 1, 2010

..."The lawsuit claims the mandatory screening techniques violate the students' Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure. The suit seeks a permanent injunction against the use of either screening method without reasonable suspicion or probable cause and a declaratory judgment stating that mandatory screening using these techniques is unconstitutional where probable cause or reasonable suspicion do not exist."...

Good question. I have read articles stating there are experts on both sides of the issues that are quite confident they are right. It will be interesting to see the outcome.

 

[OceanAnnie]

Then again, I was reading an article this morning where TSA officials were criticized for their reckless spending. We are already paying for that.

Report: TSA recruiting led to reckless spending
Per capita recruitment cost in Kansas totaled $143,000 per airport screener


"WASHINGTON — In the rush to hire airport screeners after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the newly formed Transportation Security Administration spent as much as $143,432 per screener on recruitment in Topeka, Kan., according to a report released Monday.

The TSA hired a company, NCS Pearson, to recruit screeners soon after Congress ordered it to replace private airport screeners with a government work force by Nov. 19, 2002.

Lawmakers later criticized the TSA for its spending after they learned the recruiters worked out of lavish resort hotels with golf courses, pools and spas.

The new report, written by the Homeland Security Department’s inspector general, concluded that the TSA didn’t have the staff or organization needed to manage such a contract.

“As a result, TSA made critical decisions without the benefit of sound acquisition planning or adequate cost control,” said the report by Inspector General Richard Skinner....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10781257/from/RL.4/

--------------------------------------------

Yes, I noted the date. Still money spent. Our tax dollars.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Thanks for the articles Ocean Annie. I really like the fact the 2 students are jumping on this, they are uniquely qualified to draw focus from the academic community and fellow students alike. Well played Jeffrey Redfern and Anant Pradhan, well played

 

[C.Ann]

Invasive and invasive? There's a difference? I have trouble trusting the content of any news report where the writing is inaccurate.

Not directed at the person who posted the article/link in ANY way, but specifically at the article, its writing and its content.

Seriously? You never see any misprints or the same word accidentally repeated twice in your morning newspaper; magazines; books; etc.??

When I really kicked my reading into high gear at the lake in June, I ended up reading 127 books before I returned here to my DD's for the winter - fiction and non-fiction both.. I can't even tell you how many "oops" I came across.. Those types of things happen every single day..

 

[bicker]

I can only assume from this statement that you have never actually been employed by the federal government.

I can only assume from your assertions that you don't know what you're talking about, but what is the point in posting such statements in the thread? This is what I was talking about before. Speak to the topic: Stop trying to distract attention away from points you don't like with such self-serving and meaningless slights. They add nothing to the discussion. Nothing.

I was a regulatory auditor for many years. What I wrote is indeed the case. Your rebuttal relayed anecdotal examples, which we cannot even verify. My personal experience involved taking representative samples and ensuring both that there were documented standards and that they were employed, and my audits included both the public and private sector.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Report: TSA recruiting led to reckless spending
Per capita recruitment cost in Kansas totaled $143,000 per airport screener


"WASHINGTON — In the rush to hire airport screeners after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the newly formed Transportation Security Administration spent as much as $143,432 per screener on recruitment in Topeka, Kan., according to a report released Monday.

The TSA hired a company, NCS Pearson, to recruit screeners soon after Congress ordered it to replace private airport screeners with a government work force by Nov. 19, 2002.

Well, paid for since it was eight years ago - but thank you for the research and the link. Not saying there's no waste, but likely this kind of waste isn't occurring now.

 

[OceanAnnie]

TSA advertises jobs on pizza boxes
Published: Nov. 24, 2010

..."TSA spokesman Greg Soule said the pizza box job ads are aimed at gaining a wider pool of applicants for the available positions and is part of a campaign posting ads at gas stations, movie theaters and on trains.

"A Career Where X-Ray Vision and Federal Benefits Come Standard," the pizza box ad reads." ...

http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2010/11/24/TSA-advertises-jobs-on-pizza-boxes/UPI-75441290631130/

 

[DMRick]

We were still working on some heavy emotions on that date. I hope they aren't spending that now.

Yes, I noted the date. Still money spent. Our tax dollars.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Seriously? You never see any misprints or the same word accidentally repeated twice in your morning newspaper; magazines; books; etc.??

Seriously.
We're not talking about discussion on an internet forum, i.e. informal 'writing' which, tecnically, could be equated to casual conversation.
This isn't even somebody, as you claim, accidentally repeating a word. This is a so-called reporter who used the identical word twice while - apparently - intending to use two different words.
If the reporter can't take the time to reread the article before submitting it, and the editor at the Daily 49er can't be bothered to proofread it, why should I be expected to trust that the content is accurate?

 

[OceanAnnie]

TSA does not perform psychological evaluations on officers, should they?


..."If TSA officers want to be given authority similar to exercise discretion like police officers can, they should also face the same screening process we use for police. Nearly every police jurisdiction requires officer applicants to undergo psychological screening."...

..."invasive searches are forbidden even for soldiers in Afghanistan searching citizens there, unprotected by the presumptions granted Americans in the US Constitution. TSA officials are not above the law, and they should not have full discretion to decide when they can violate American’s constitutional rights. Writes a US Army staff sergeant at The Atlantic:

"At no time were we permitted or even encouraged to search children or women. In fact, this would have been considered an extreme violation of acceptable cultural practice and given the way word travels here, been a propaganda victory for the Taliban."...


http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs...m-psychological-evaluations-officers-should-t

 

[kaytieeldr]

TSA advertises jobs on pizza boxes
Published: Nov. 24, 2010

..."TSA spokesman Greg Soule said the pizza box job ads are aimed at gaining a wider pool of applicants for the available positions and is part of a campaign posting ads at gas stations, movie theaters and on trains.

"A Career Where X-Ray Vision and Federal Benefits Come Standard," the pizza box ad reads." ...

http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2010/11/24/TSA-advertises-jobs-on-pizza-boxes/UPI-75441290631130/

This information is, I believe, cited upthread. I could be wrong, it could be in one of the closed threads from earlier this month

At any rate, there's nothing wrong with creative recruiting. I hope everybody realizes that pizza delivery customers, train passengers, movie-goers, etc., come from a WIDE range of backgrounds.

 

[DMRick]

C.Ann..Great news for your sister. It looks like neither Sanford or Albany are using the new scanners. Your sister may still be able to make the trip and just go through the regular scanners like we all did before. Hope this helps.

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/2010-11-18-airports-with-scanners_N.htm

 

[OceanAnnie]

This information is, I believe, cited upthread. I could be wrong, it could be in one of the closed threads from earlier this month

At any rate, there's nothing wrong with creative recruiting. I hope everybody realizes that pizza delivery customers, train passengers, movie-goers, etc., come from a WIDE range of backgrounds.

I hadn't seen it before.

The quote stood out to me as, "wrong".

"A Career Where X-Ray Vision and Federal Benefits Come Standard,"

X-Ray Vision touted as a benefit to the job doesn't come across as, "sensitive" to those that have to endure it. YMMV.

 

[DMRick]

"A Career Where X-Ray Vision and Federal Benefits Come Standard,"

That's what the box says? If so, that's not good at all.