Troubles at Disneyland....

[Douglas Dubh]

"Hey douglas dubh....
Could you please enlighten me on how there are MORE rides now then in 1991?? Name one NEW ride. (Not including Indiana Jones). "

Why wouldn't I include Indiana Jones? It's a new ride that wasn't there in 91, right? But besides that, they opened Toontown in 93 and added Fantasmic in 92.

Attractions closed since 91: Mission to Mars, Motor Boat Cruise, Skyway, PeopleMover, Big Thunder Ranch, Submarine Voyage, Rocket Rods, and Country Bear Playhouse. Total: 8.

Attractions opened since 91: Fantasmic!, Mickey's House, Minnie's House, Goofy's Bounce House, Donald's Boat, Gadget's Go Coaster, Jolly Trolley, Roger Rabbit's Cartoon Spin, Indiana Jones, Rocket Rods, Innoventions. Total: 11.

That's plus 3.

 

[roymccoy]

Uh....WHAT?? +3 rides since 1991?? Could you come do my taxes please?? You could creatively save me a ton of dough!
Let's go over your list. New rides - Mickey's House, Minnie's House, Goofy's Bounce House, Donald's Boat, Jolley Trolley. Let me get this straight....you consider these rides? You're cool with them replacing the Submarines, People Mover, The Ranch, Skyway, Country Bear, etc?? These are bad carnival rides. The "Jolley Trolley" goes about 100 feet in a circle. Cartoon Spin almost killed a kid. Mickey and Minnies Houses would look good at the Orange County Fair. (4 coupons)
I think I saw Goofy's Bounce House in my neighbor's yard for their son's 8th B-day.

Let's go on....Fantasmic is not a ride, it's a show. (And it is on it's last legs.) Innoventions is like a big, spinning Circut City and it was just about the most cost effective thing they could have done with the that building.
Rocket Rods is gone and I contend that Indiana Jones does not a theme park make.

It's blind devotion like what you are displaying that feeds right into their hands. All they'd need is a few refrigerator boxes and a string of X-mas lights and you'd tell me that it was worth every bit of the $43 bucks. Get the pixie dust out of your eyes and take a look around Disneyland next time you're there. It's got more holes than Augusta. It's missing more teeth than the front row at a Willie Nelson concert. They need to....hold on.....I'm going to use profanity here, better move the kiddies into the next room....they need to SPEND SOME MONEY and build some good, innovative rides at Disneyland or it's ALL going to flush with DCA. If your saying that Disney's big guns in the theme park patron fight is a Bounce House and a Jolley Trolley, sell that share of stock on your wall NOW! While it's still worth $18.

Roy :-(

 

[WDW2002]

Roy,


Can I ask you a question?

Why are you on a Disneyland board if it is such a horrible place? I am just curious.

 

[roymccoy]

Ya know, I never buy into that question. "If you don't like it, why are you here?" I'm here for the same reason you're here...I love Disney and I have since I was a kid. I just CAN NOT stand by and let them strip it down to a corporate icon. Disney USED to be more than that. Walt didn't care about money. He would have had twice as many rides for the same price. The powers that be now at Disney don't share your "Mickey Mouse" enthusiasm I'm afraid. If these people didn't work for Disney, they'd be at Microsoft or Merrill Lynch or Qualcomm, etc. They have no love for Disney. They will push YOUR love for Disney to the brink of you finally saying, "Forget it, it ain't worth it anymore." They will threaten to take out a ride JUST TO SEE what the core following says. If the level of disgust and complaints doesn't get to a certain level, then they will take out the ride. They tried it on Mr Lincoln and Mr. Toad and found that it would have cost the bottomline too much if they took it out. They were going to remove these attractions to save money. They weren't planning on putting anything in their place, They were just going to cut them out. They would cut Disneyland down to Innoventions and the teacups if we would let them. We allow them to do this by NOT COMPLAINING. These people take "not complaining" as a sign that they have the green light. We have to remember that we must protect Disney FROM the new corporate types in charge. We must complain, hoot, holler, fuss, etc. just to keep what we've got. They have in essence decided that Disneyland has too much in it. They have decided that Walt was too generous. They want Disneyland parred back to a smaller, cheaper park. You know what they want Disney to look like?!? DCA...that was the current bosses idea for a perfect Disney park. Basically, if they had Disneyland to "do all over again" it would be DCA... Cheap, empty, expensive and cost effective. My dad used to tell me a story that seems to fit right now....Back in the 70's NASA needed to build a spaceship for getting satellites into orbit faster and cheaper than they could before. They put out the usual requests for contractors to bid on buliding the different components. Along with the bids, they also listed the minimum specifications that the different components needed to be built to. Well, the yahoo that was in charge of picking the different contractors to build the ship was an awful lot like the new Disney brass. He lost site of the finished product and got mired down in saving money and making it as cheaply as possible. As it came out, he picked all of the LOWEST bidders. The lowest bidders all used the very MINIMUM specifications allowed. Well, when it came time to launch the first prototype, it blew up. It structurally wasn't sound. It hadn't been built strong enough. When they asked the original designer who came up with the plans why it blew up he said, "I didn't take into account that every single nut and bolt would be manufactured to the lowest common denominator of my plans. The lack of any quality whatsoever was the reason that it did not hold together."
See my point? Disney has lost site of the big picture. They are using the "lowest common denominator" theory in their parks...and if they don't watch out, it's going to shake apart like that spaceship.

Roy

 

[Douglas Dubh]

"Let me get this straight....you consider these rides?"

No, I consider them attractions.

"You're cool with them replacing the Submarines, People Mover, The Ranch, Skyway, Country Bear, etc??"

They didn't replace those rides. Pooh will replace Country Bears. Other new things will go into Tomorrowland.

"Cartoon Spin almost killed a kid. "

RRCS is a good dark ride. It wasn't the ride's fault that kid was injured.

"Let's go on....Fantasmic is not a ride, it's a show. (And it is on it's last legs.)"

Earlier you were complaining about Big Thunder Ranch and the Hunchback stage not being used. They are not rides either. And Fantasmic is not on it's last legs.

"Innoventions is like a big, spinning Circut City and it was just about the most cost effective thing they could have done with the that building."

It maybe cost effective, but my kids enjoy going in for a while each time we go to DL. I can't say that about Circuit City.

"Rocket Rods is gone and I contend that Indiana Jones does not a theme park make. "

Which is why I listed Rocket Rods as both opening and closing. Something will replace it. Would you rather have the PeopleMover over Indiana Jones?

"It's blind devotion like what you are displaying that feeds right into their hands. "

It's hardly blind devotion. I recognize that Tomorrowland '98 was a bust and that TL needs some new attractions. But ranting and raving about problems that aren't as bad as you make them because you got your facts wrong doesn't make your arguments stronger - it makes them weaker.

"All they'd need is a few refrigerator boxes and a string of X-mas lights and you'd tell me that it was worth every bit of the $43 bucks. Get the pixie dust out of your eyes and take a look around Disneyland next time you're there."

I have never and will never pay full price to go to DL. And after a visit, I write them a letter to let them know which things they did right and which things need work. Accusing them of problems that aren't true is just going to get you labeled a nut, and your criticisms will be dismissed. Get your facts straight.

 

[roymccoy]

Hey, if you're saying that you like Disneyland more now than you did in 1991, who am I to argue with you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. As for me, I miss The Submarines, The PeopleMover, The Ranch, America Sings, Rocket Rods, The Skyway, The Motorboats, The Country Bear Jamboree, Circlevision, etc and have you noticed that ALL of the areas that those rides were in are now empty? (I consider America Sings WORSE than empty.) I'm glad that you are willing to let Toon Town "fill the void" of the rest of the empty park. I cannot ignore the fact that about a quarter of Disneyland is abandoned. Quality rides were taken out with NO plans for replacement but $43 is still charged. I'm not even mentioning the restaurants and shops that have closed since 1991 nor do I mention the fact that the only new idea's that seem to come in are temporary "cardboard cut-out" covers on existing rides. I will not have the wool pulled over MY eyes. I would be the guy yelling at the Emperor, "Hey dude...where your clothes??!?"

Roy

 

[Douglas Dubh]

"As for me, I miss The Submarines, The PeopleMover, The Ranch, America Sings, Rocket Rods, The Skyway, The Motorboats, The Country Bear Jamboree, Circlevision, etc and have you noticed that ALL of the areas that those rides were in are now empty? . . . I'm glad that you are willing to let Toon Town "fill the void" of the rest of the empty park. "

America Sings and Circlevision were both closed before 1991. I do not believe that Toontown "fills the void" - I noted in my previous post that TL needs a lot of work. If I believed that TL will stay like it is, then your point would be valid. It won't.

"I would be the guy yelling at the Emperor, "Hey dude...where your clothes??!?" "

Which would be a silly thing to say if he was wearing some. Does Disneyland have problems? Yes. Is it a perfect park? No. There have always been rides closed, some for rehab, some to be replaced. Is the park better now than in 91? Yes. Will it better in the future? Yes.

It's fine to criticize, roy, but if you criticize for things that aren't true, you will not have credibility.

I'd love to see some new rides in TL and Frontierland, but at the same time, I have enough sense to see that they're spending a lot of money redoing all the pavement in DL, one land at a time. There's no big "wow" factor to pavement, but it's needed and it looks very nice. Once that project is done, then they will turn their attention to other things.

 

[roymccoy]

You're happy about pavement?? I, for one, would like to see a little more ON TOP of the pavement. I'm sure I am not alone in thinking that Disneyland was better in the early 90's. There certainly was much more to do then. Tomorrowland was more complete and buzzing with activity. The submarines filled the lagoon. The Ranch was humming with activity and the smell of BBQ. I know that I sure felt that I got more for my money then. Longer hours. More parades and shows. More restaurants. Gift-giver games and prizes. Too much empty space at Disneyland today. Too much cost cutting. Hopefully, it won't be too late to fix the problems......I don't know

Roy

 

[Douglas Dubh]

"You're happy about pavement??"

Yes.

"I, for one, would like to see a little more ON TOP of the pavement."

I'm sure everyone would. But most people recognize that their wants need to be reasonable. Our economy will rebound, people will return to the DL resort, and it will continue to grow and improve. Somethings will be put in or changed that I will not care a lot for, and somethings will be put in or changed that I will like a lot. That's the way life works.

 

[roymccoy]

If people complain about DL the way they complained about DCA, we'll see the same results. You don't hear them talking about raising the prices over at DCA, do you? Even though they are adding a lot of new stuff? Nope. They thought they were getting away with something but they got bit. Now we need to tell them that we aren't too happy about the direction DL is going in, either. (Unless, of course, you're happy with DL)

Roy

 

[Douglas Dubh]

"If people complain about DL the way they complained about DCA, we'll see the same results."

The results we're seeing at DCA are not because of people on the internet making unfounded accusations. They're the result of less than hoped for attendence.

"Now we need to tell them that we aren't too happy about the direction DL is going in, either. "

Which I have in the past and which I will in the future. But my criticism will be based on fact, not fiction.

 

[roymccoy]

We'll agree to disagree. That's what makes America great.

Roy

 

[Douglas Dubh]

"We'll agree to disagree. "

What are you proposing to agree to disagree about? I'll agree to disagree about whether there is more to do now at DL than 91. I won't agree to disagree that you were wrong in many of your facts.

 

[roymccoy]

What facts are we disagreeing about?? That there are big ole holes in Disneyland?? That there is nothing in Submarine Lagoon, The Ranch or the Motorboat area or the Country Bear Jamboree Playhouse? That Tomorrowland is a ghost town? How does someone diagree with those FACTS?? That is the reality, Doug. I'm sorry if we can't agree on what that means to Disneyland, but those facts are irrefutable. There is nothing in those areas. They have ceased to be. You have even admitted that YOU think that Tomorrowland is a waste of space. Tomorrowland is a MAJOR part of Disneyland, and it didn't used to be a waste of space. How can a major portion of Disneyland be a waste of space but somehow Disneyland is better because of it?? I just don't get it. We can argue all you want, but I don't follow your logic. I have agreed to disagree and I am standing by it.

Roy

 

[Douglas Dubh]

The fact that there are more attractions now than in 91. The fact that many of the attractions you listed as being there in 91 were removed prior to it. The fact that Tomorrowland is not a "ghost town" and I never said it was "a waste of space" - I said it need some more attractions.

"We can argue all you want, but I don't follow your logic."

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just pointing out when you make statements that do not match the facts.

 

[roymccoy]

I don't feel that the rides in Toon Town (where you get 3/4's of your "new rides") count all that much. Why not count every single game in the arcade? Why not count the top floor of StarCade as a loss of one ride because is empty. See what I mean?
The facts are this....Submarine Lagoon, The Ranch, The Motorboat River, The People Mover tracks, the Skyway Lines, The Country Bear Playhouse, The Plaza Pavillion and most of Tomorrowland are abandoned....If all of that is worth a Toon Town, I wanna play poker with you someday!

Roy

 

[Douglas Dubh]

"I don't feel that the rides in Toon Town (where you get 3/4's of your "new rides") count all that much."

Which is fine, but please recognize that some people my disagree.

"The facts are this....Submarine Lagoon, The Ranch, The Motorboat River, The People Mover tracks, the Skyway Lines, The Country Bear Playhouse, The Plaza Pavillion and most of Tomorrowland are abandoned...."

Those are not the facts. The Country Bear Playhouse is not abandoned, it's being replaced. Naming a bunch of places in Tomorrowland and then adding in "most of Tomorrowland" makes your list longer, but not accurate. Tomorrowland needs work, true, but I admitted that in my first post on this thread.

"If all of that is worth a Toon Town, I wanna play poker with you someday! "

I never said it was. But I'll take Indiana Jones, Roger Rabbit Cartoon Spin, and a Winnie the Pooh dark ride over the People Mover, the Motorboat Cruise, the Skyway, and the Country Bear Playhouse anyday.

 

[raidermatt]

Seriously, just a few more drinking fountains, and Tomorrowland will be back on track...

Wow, the debate has certainly become rather intense... Roy, I tend to agree that Toontown isn't chock full of "E-ticket" rides, but for my 3 year old son, it outweighs just about anything they can put in Tomorrowland. Just depends on who the audience is.

I think DL hasn't seen much in the way of "adds" lately because of DCA. That's where the attention has been, and for the most part, will continue to be for awhile. I know Disney has the money to do both, but they have stockholders to please, and they have to watch their capital expenditures, especially in an already existing and successful park. I do think we will see some additions to Tomorrowland, and some of the other areas, but it won't be in the next year or two.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

"I think DL hasn't seen much in the way of "adds" lately because of DCA. "

That may be part of it, but it's also true they've been working on rehabbing older stuff that needed it, and there is a philosophy, first advocated by Judson Greene, that Disneyland is a "mature" park, so they can afford to close an older ride when a new one premieres.

 

[raidermatt]

Good points, Doug. I have heard that philosophy before, and I can't logically disagree with it.

Of course I always want to see new things added, but the DCA/DD additions have done more to satisfy that want than any attraction in Tomorrowland could.