Trouble with our 5 year old....

[Harlie]

He still doesn't write his name. He knows how to spell it but refuses to when I try to get him to practice! His Teacher thinks he is behind when he isn't. He knows his alphabet in French and English, knows and recognizes numbers in english up to 40 and in French up to 30. He knows most sounds of letters (atleast it seems like it one day and then the next he claims he doesn't know though Im sure he does).

He is intimidated by our last name its over 10 letters long and hard to pronounce and ends in "ski" I grew up with an easy last name so I can't understand how it would be hard. But DH says He knew how to spell and write it when he was 3

Occasionally I catch him doing it on his own by singing it (he sings everthing when he is playing by himself) So I know he knows but why can't he show the teacher he knows this instead of pulling the "I don't know" Or "I can't" fit (he will cry and throw a tantrum) for her. She really believe he doesn't know

I am unsure how to get him to be more confident. I thought it was just a little phase he was going through. But we are half way through the school year and there is no progress and im my opinion it actually the opposite of progress.

I have read on the Dis how others have kids his age that already know how to read! How did you do it? My DS is sooo stubborn I can't encourage him to learn a thing and I am getting quite frustrated with it all

What do you recommend would help?

Thanks in advance!

 

[RangerPooh]

As a Pre-K teacher I have plenty of 4 and 5 year olds that still can not write/spell their first names at this point in the year. The majority started the scvhool year not even knowing what the first letter of their first name was. So for us, progress is good, but getting there can be frustrating.

Have you considered placing a plastic tablke cloth on the table and sparying shaving cream on it. Then your son can use his finger to spell his name in the shaving cream. It's messy and fun. You can do a similar approach with wet sand.

Perhaps try a variety of mediums. Crayons, pencils, amrkers, paint. Encourage him to display his best name writing work in the "gallery"; a framed bulletin board on display in your house. Where each peice that is better or just as good as the lastis hung for all to see.

 

[*pixie*dust*]

Have you considered having him tested, to rule out any sort of learning challenges? I know that can be a hard thing for a parent to think about but it might give you peice of mind to have him evaluated. Then you would know if he learns differently or if he is just being shy or stubborn. Many children who learn differently have high IQs and do very well once challenges are discovered and learning is adapted to their style.

 

[mommyof2princesses]

My 6 year old hates to write. In fact, we are doing handwriting practice right now. She can read on a 3rd grade level, does upper 2nd grade math and has an amazing vocabulary, but just doesn't like to write. Kids will develop at their own rate. Eventually, they all catch up.

 

[ChrisAlli]

My son has a long first name 11 letter and 9 last. we went with the first 5 of his first name.....that seemed to make it better. In K he would write the 5 letters and last initial

He still has very messy handwriting (printing), but now that he's started cursive 2nd grade, he's really good at it. Go figure

 

[princessmom29]

If he can't or won't write his name he is behind if he is in K, at least according to our state course of study. My DD is in K and they had to write first and last name on the enterance test. All the students in her class are doing that and are reading independently. They did letter sounds first quarter, but have long since moved on. Some kids are just naturally resistant to trying something new and potentially fail at it. It sounds like that is happening here. I would try a reward system. It always seems to work for DD. Mabye if he attempts to write his name at school without a problem (no whining or arguing) he gets a friday treat?

 

[Maleficient]

My 6 year old DS is very stubborn, and when he was 5 he didn't want to be told (by me) that he needed to work on something....but he did love going to the library, and I let him know that he was able to get his own library card - IF he could write his first and last name. Those were the library's rules, not mine, and he suddenly became interested in practicing his name! Worked like a charm and he took off writing from that point on. He actually writes his own stories now and really enjoys it - please don't worry. If he can spell what sounds like a challenging last name, he'll be able to write it when its what he wants to do.

I have 2 older DDs and its amazing the difference between boys and girls! The stubborness I see from this little guy is awe-inspiring! Good luck!

 

[tricia]

Is he at an English school, French School, or Immersion? I ask because that could be very relevant. My DSs are in immersion and have done OK, but another little girl we know was in my DSs JK class, and did very poorly. She never uttered a word for most of the year, did not participate, and did not make friends. The teacher thought for sure there was something wrong with her. They transfered her to an English school the following year and she has flourished. She is a very bright girl, but the language thing locked her into a shell.

 

[brergnat]

I would agree to having him evaluated. He might have issues with fine motor control or something as simple as poor hand strength that makes holding and using writing instruments difficult. Will he write ANYTHING? Can he write with chalk on the sidewalk? An easle or vertical whiteboard? Can he do stuff like play with Lite Brite?

Have you ever asked him to write his name and NOT hovered over him? Try to offer an enticing reward like a small piece of candy if he writes his name. If he will do it at home and not at school, he may just have problems performing under what he percieves to be pressure.

As for the knowing numbers, in K it really means nothing to have the numbers memorized. At this stage, the kids are learning about quantity and that numbers represent that. And, by the end of K, they are only expected to understand quantities up to twenty.

 

[ktlm]

If you figure it out, let me know. My DD is a couple of weeks away from 4. She knows all of her letters, letter sounds, can spell her name and several other short words easily if you ask her how or give her a stack of cardboard, plastic or magnet letters, and even is reading many words. Her preschool and dance teachers are constantly commenting on how incredibly smart she is. BUT she absolutely refuses to make any effort to write her name or any other word or even letters (unless it is an X or T). She has no patience to do it. She doesn't like to color or draw pictures unless it is just a quick scribble. She won't draw a straight line, or even attempt to draw anything that isn't "abstract". I've tried everything and she won't even try. The preschool teacher draws her name with dots and lets her connect the dots with lines and she will do that, but nothing independent of that. It drives me crazy. I don't know what to do. She is farsighted and wears glasses and I worry that her refusal to write has something to do with her eyes or depth perception, but she can pick up an adult book with tiny letters and pick and read certain words off the page, so I know she can see. It is not a confidence or shy thing- she is the most outgoing self-confident kid I've ever seen. I don't know what to do.

 

[princessmom29]

If you figure it out, let me know. My DD is a couple of weeks away from 4. She knows all of her letters, letter sounds, can spell her name and several other short words easily if you ask her how or give her a stack of cardboard, plastic or magnet letters, and even is reading many words. Her preschool and dance teachers are constantly commenting on how incredibly smart she is. BUT she absolutely refuses to make any effort to write her name or any other word or even letters (unless it is an X or T). She has no patience to do it. She doesn't like to color or draw pictures unless it is just a quick scribble. She won't draw a straight line, or even attempt to draw anything that isn't "abstract". I've tried everything and she won't even try. The preschool teacher draws her name with dots and lets her connect the dots with lines and she will do that, but nothing independent of that. It drives me crazy. I don't know what to do. She is farsighted and wears glasses and I worry that her refusal to write has something to do with her eyes or depth perception, but she can pick up an adult book with tiny letters and pick and read certain words off the page, so I know she can see. It is not a confidence or shy thing- she is the most outgoing self-confident kid I've ever seen. I don't know what to do.

I would think that would be a fine motor issue that will improve with time. She sounds much the same as my DD.She didn't write her name legibly until after she turned 4, even though she could spell it well before that. She just didn't have the fine motor skills to do it, and it hurt her hand to try, so the effort I got from her was limited at best. From what I have read it is a normal developmental stage at that age not to have full control of a pencil yet. I think it is supposed to come between 4 and 4 1/2 ?? My dd did better with a fat pencil. Hve you tired that?

 

[mommalissa]

Is your child in a school with more than one kindergarten teacher? If so you might talk to your child to see if the teacher is part of the problem. There are some really excellent teachers out there but there are also teachers out there who don't enjoy their job and are just there for a paycheck. If his teacher has not responded well to him not writing he may be feel bad or feel extremely pressured and would rather not try at all rather than try and be made to feel bad.

If you want to work with him at home, you could get the workbooks at Dollar Tree that work on writing or the books at Toys R Us that come with a dry erase marker and he can work on his letters and erase until he gets the motions down. You can break down each letter, discuss the shapes that make up the letters. He may think he cannot make a d but he can probably make a circle and a line, and making the letter is just a matter of putting the shapes together.

 

[Harlie]

Thanks everyone,

His teacher says he particpates very activly in class. He Loves school, to draw and to colour, he is friendly and partipates and is kind and helpful. He uses his words and is able to communicate when someone does something to upset him rather then smacking them one. He is also very descriptive and articulate with his words.

I am in Canada and I think the K curriculum here varies greatly from my American Neighbours. There is no requirements to start k here. and he already started knowing his alphabet in French and English.

DS is in a French Immersion program. I am not worried about his small motor skills he can draw better then our older DS and he can write his letters and knows most of the sounds they make in french and english. He just refuses to when we try to encourage him to practice (parents and teacher) he claims he can't or doesn't know how too and crys. We as the parents know that he does because he will when left to his own freewill and he will come to us and show it and we praise him for it. But he doesn't for the teacher so when she tries to evaluate him he gets a poor evaluation. I thought this was just a phase, it s just that this phase is taking longer then I hoped.

I have tried the reward system. I had him write his name before he could watch tv or play his leapster and he would. We stopped because it seemed like he knew it and we thought it was done, but it wasn't according to the teacher who said he is still not doing it at school. So when I tried to get him to at home he went back to the I can't I don't know how to crying fits. It could be because he is sick right now and is in need of some extra sleep, but I am not fond of the fits lol. I sent him for a nap and we are going to work on it again before he can earn some playtime.

I do like that shaving cream idea. He would really Love that!

 

[J'aime Paris]

I'm an aide in an American public school, so I'll give you my perspective.

A teacher can only evaluate a child on what the child will do for them. If your DS is unwilling to demonstate any of his skills/capabilities to the teacher, she has no choice but to believe that he cannot do it.

Example:
my best friend's son is autistic. She works will him diligently and gets good results at home. He's comfortable at home, and amazes her daily. However, at school, it is a different story. He often won't show what he knows. It is a big source of frustration for my friend, because she knows different. But, that is of little help to the teacher....and unfortunately his grades reflect it.

If you believe that your DS is learning and thriving, I'd give it some time.

If you have worries about his development, it couldn't hurt to get him assessed by a professional.

That is my 2 cents, good luck!!

 

[kohlby]

I homeschool and my oldest still struggles with our difficult last name. He's 6.5 years old. He could write his first name at 3 but refused most times until after 4. At 5, he wasn't interested in reading, so we didn't worry about it. He started his first grade year technically "behind" in reading. By the end of first semester, he was ahead. I feel that reading is like walking - some kids are ready for it sooner than others and it's okay to not be one of the first! If a child is still struggling at 8, then I can see how it's an issue. But it's perfectly normal for some 5 year olds not be ready for reading.

*We do radical unschooling for kindy. I can't imagine having to push him to learn what he "should" for the kindy year. I strongly believe in kids kindy and younger learning through play, not worksheets and flashcards. Things like coloring and doing playdough and legos are an excellent way to build up their fine motor skills. It's quite common for kids, especially boys, of this age to not enjoy writing because their fine motor skills aren't advanced enough.

 

[Mrs. Charming]

I think sometimes kids are just stubborn. I know my DD is! Drives me batty sometimes..

 

[deerhart]

My youngerst son is like yours. He would not "show off" what he knew etc..
My oldest also wouldn't even SAY his name until he was almost 4 (but was reading at age 2.. long story).

Does he have a copy of his full name on his desk to copy from? In our school the kids have their names on a strip on their desks until 3rd grade. While most do know how to spell and write their names by 1st grade, some kids have harder names and just need more reminding (we have a short last name but it doesn't sound like its spelled).

For many kids, they will just do it when they are darned good and ready to show they can do it. My youngest refused to recite the ABC's when asked, but we could hear him singing them in the bathtub! He also refuses to show anyone at home that he can read (but we know he can and he reads at his grade level or higher - 1st grade). Unlike my oldest, he had NO interest in learning to read (beyond what he was naturally picking up) until well into Kindy.

Now the type of behavior your describing is pretty typical with kids with some anxiety. This could be a more indepth issue, or it just could be the anxiety of getting it wrong in front of the teacher or nerves. For my youngest when he was 3-5 it was all nerves and getting things wrong, for my oldest he does a similiar thing but it is a much deeper anxiety issue (my oldest has several diagnosis, anxiety not being one of them, but his anxiety is a constant thorn in our side and something we work with on a daily basis)

If he draws and writes spontaneously, if he can spell the name spontaneously (and can spell other words) then the real issue is just with writing the name, there is probably nothing to worry about. Now if you were saying he's not writing at all, or can't spell other words either, then it's a different story. i've been there with a child who refused to touch buttons for no reason what so ever except that they were buttons, and since the "testing for fine motor skills" was done primarily with buttons... well you get the picture and so did the therapist when he brought out the legos!

 

[ktlm]

I would think that would be a fine motor issue that will improve with time. She sounds much the same as my DD.She didn't write her name legibly until after she turned 4, even though she could spell it well before that. She just didn't have the fine motor skills to do it, and it hurt her hand to try, so the effort I got from her was limited at best. From what I have read it is a normal developmental stage at that age not to have full control of a pencil yet. I think it is supposed to come between 4 and 4 1/2 ?? My dd did better with a fat pencil. Hve you tired that?

Thanks, that makes me feel better. She has some markers that are pretty good sized, but I think I will look for a really big pencil and see if that helps. Maybe she will be interested enough in the pencil that she will give it a try.

Harlie, do you think he might have an issue with the teacher? It sounds like you know he can do everything, he just won't. My DD is like that on some things too. She has a strong personality and questions authority- if a teacher tells her to do something she may very well insist on knowing why first. If she doesn't like the way someone tells her to do something, she may not do it and most times she does that by pretending she doesn't know how to do it, even with a few tears, because she thinks she won't get in trouble for refusing if we or the teacher think she just doesn't know how. I know my DD doesn't know how to write letters or her name- she won't even try. It sounds like your DS does know how to write the letters and name, he just doesn't want to. It really sounds to me like he is having some sort of issue with the teacher. Also, the fact you say his teacher thinks he is behind alerts me to maybe a teacher issue. I have a friend whose DD's teacher used to claim her DD (who tests off the scale in intelligence) was behind and tried to tell her she needed remedial courses as she just didn't have the ability to keep up with the other kids. My friend knew that was wrong, but the principal backed up the teacher. It was a pretty prestigious private school. My friend pulled her daughter out of that school and put her in another private school with a fantastic teacher, and her child immediately started doing all the things the 1st teacher said she couldn't do, went straight to the top of the class, and my friend has been told by the new school ever since how intelligent and advanced her daughter is. The new school believes that her DD was bored at the other school because she was so far ahead and lost interest, and the teacher didn't recognize that and know how to handle it. Her daughter is also a strong personality and did not like her 1st teacher and wasn't going to do what she said. Like your son, the easiest way to defy the teacher witout getting in trouble was to pretend she didn't know how to do the work. That way they don't get branded as uncooperative. Instead of recognizing the intelligence and working with her, the teacher wrote her off as being behind and of lesser intelligence.

 

[bumbershoot]

If he can't or won't write his name he is behind if he is in K, at least according to our state course of study.

And yet that's where we started to *learn* such things when I was in that age range (didn't go to K, was at Montessori before 1st grade). So this isn't an absolute; it's up to the silliness of the American public and where it thinks kids should be, up to the particular school district, etc etc.

Not a lot of paying attention to actual children, IMO, when they make up these rules for where kids should be before their formal schooling time actually begins.

I am in Canada and I think the K curriculum here varies greatly from my American Neighbours. There is no requirements to start k here.

So when I tried to get him to at home he went back to the I can't I don't know how to crying fits.

Ooh I like Canada's way.

I homeschool, and although I would love to just be hanging out, passively learning most of the time while answering questions and just exploring the world, DS started asking for workbooks before he was 4. (then again, both DH and I loved loved LOVED workbooks as kids in public school, so perhaps it's genetic)

We knew that we would NOT push him to read or write. I spontaneously started reading (out loud) at 2. DH had to be forced to learn to read at about 8. I can't see the use in a 2 year old reading, and DH learned to hate to read because of his experience, so we've really followed DS's leads on this.

And even though HE is the one who wants to read, it's taken a long long time for him to finally, just the other day, tell us that he's starting to learn. Before, he would cry when he felt "forced" to do it (even if he initiated the "lesson").

I'm telling you this to let you know that 5 year olds are bitty things, sensitive creatures, and crying IMO is very normal if they get frustrated. The hug is for their sweet hearts and for the adults who get to figure them out.


And with letters, sometimes DS wants to make the letters and sometimes he doesn't. If he feels pressured to do it, he will dig in his heels and say he can't. Say he doesn't know, he'll never know, etc. Then 30 seconds later, if I ask in a silly voice or make a show of turning away and closing up the "lesson"...he'll just pop over and write whatever it was he was going to write.

And that's the beauty of it being just the two of us together; I can take the time to figure out how to relax him. And it's the bummer of a classroom situation, where the teacher has many other students, and can't gear the teaching for each individual student.


Even though she has to mark him "down" for this...it's kindergarten. He won't do this for the teacher, so she can't grade him on it. As long as he knows this, and doesn't let the lower "grades" get him down, I would think it should be fine. If someone makes a huge deal out of it, that he's getting lower grades...even though HE knows he can do it when he wants to, I think the problem might continue and even grow (DH, despite having a near 4.0 GPA on graduation, thinks that he is stupid and a failure, thanks to how his parents reacted to even an A-...just to give an example of what negativity can do to a kid...he's almost 38 now and finally started realizing he is anything but stupid a few years ago).


And another example of how silly school can be when they get rigid...

I was 3 grades older than my brother. When I was in elementary school, the principal adored my shy, scared self. And he thought I should be tested for the gifted program. He knew I hid when pressed, so he administered the test himself since I trusted him. We sat in a room together, and he made the atmosphere relaxing for me. I got into the program.

3 years later, my brother, who is BRILLIANT in every single way imaginable, was there. By that time the nice principal was gone, the test had changed, and it had to be administered by the book. My brother failed. And it wasn't even because of the atmosphere, but because for some reason the test used *cartoon characters*. And my brother and I ONLY watched PBS, nothing else, and had NO IDEA who those cartoon characters were. My brother failed it because he couldn't relate the characters to what they were trying to ask him.

So sometimes things that schools do flies in the face of logic.

My brother didn't let that "failure" get him down, and had a brilliant school career.

So don't let this get DS down. He'll do it eventually. He's still bitty. From what I noticed yesterday at the Y, I think that when people have younger kids, they forget how little their older kids are. 5 is still very wee, and sensitivity is the name of the game, IMO. He'll get it. I wouldn't stress.

 

[princessmom29]

It is really funny how different kids need different things and parents can look at 2 things totally differently. My DD is intensely competitve and driven to know, learn, and do. She is constantly questioning the whys and hows and wants to learn to do everything right now. She is fustrated by not being able to do something and will work and work until she can, unprompted by me. She applys this to school, dance, and anything else she does. I see a lot of me as a child in her. The benchmarks and requirements set by school are right up her alley and really motivate her to learn and master skills. She thrives in a high expectation environment.
Children who enter private schools here are expected to have had one, preferably two years of preschool under thier belts before starting K. DD started going to school a half day when she was 2, turning 3 within a month. It was the best thing I ever did for her. She thrived on the structure and LOVED learning letters, numbers ect. She learned so much in 3 years of going to preschool, and loved every minute of it. Not just ABC's and 123's. They learned about the life cycle of plants, how the human body functions, solids liquids and gases ect. I think having aggressive goals set for her was a great thing. I have no problem with schools expecting skills to be mastered at specific times. Even the public schools here expect that children know letters and numbers coming in. A lot of kids odn't, but not because they are not capable.

I feel that kids at this age in general are capable of so much more than most adults give them credit for. They are capable of processing and understanding so much that they are not given the opportunity to because many adults assume they "won't get it so what's the point?" I think we need to have high expectations of them and challenge them to meet that standard. It has to be done in a non threatening low pressure environment, but there is no reason not to expect that a 5 year old can and should learn to write their name, read, and do simple addition and subtraction. They are capable of understanding basic scientifc principles and learning some basic history. The vast majority are perfectly capable of learning and doing these things. I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing that schools expect them to do so. I like that my DD is being challenged to achieve and that there are high expectations placed on her.