Transgenders and bathrooms....

[Teresa Pitman]

This question makes me wonder what trans people did all along,at Disney and all other places. I imagine they went in the bathroom they thought appropriate and no one noticed or cared. Now this is a huge issue...

Most of the time that was the case, and you have likely shared the rest room many times with someone who is transgender. But sometimes trans men and women were attacked when people felt they were using the "wrong" room. That's why some places have passed or proposed laws to protect them. Pretty simple.

 

[wvjules]

So these laws are about protecting transgender people? Are you being serious? I've got a bridge to sell you.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

Okay. What do YOU say the laws are about?

 

[damskipi13]

This question makes me wonder what trans people did all along,at Disney and all other places. I imagine they went in the bathroom they thought appropriate and no one noticed or cared. Now this is a huge issue...

That's exactly what they did, and nobody cared because nobody knew. Except there was a tiny percentage of the time when they did know and sometimes that led to transgendered individuals being harassed for being in the bathroom of their gender. The germane part of this conversation, though, is that I and others have been following this issue for months and nobody has been able to unearth a single instance of a non-transgendered person pretending to be transgendered in order to enter the bathroom of the opposite sex. Not one. This NC law was literally passed to protect against a non-existent situation. And yet the people in favor of it can't seem to figure out why people are against this law

In the meantime, it now places transgendered individuals into a really bad situation where they are now forced to use a bathroom where they will stand out, because their public appearance doesn't "match their plumbing" as so many people like to say (I hate that phrase!). So now you will have female-to-male transgendered individuals who are walking into the women's restroom looking like a male. This is the part that is so crazy to me! Well okay it all makes me crazy, but let's walk though this part. The proponents of this law are like "I don't want a man in the women's restroom" but that is literally exactly what they have asked for! So they defend the law by saying "this prevents perverts from entering the women's restroom" but if I was a smart, male, non-trangendered pervert I'd be jumping for joy because now all I'd have to do is say "Oh no, I'm really female. I'm supposed to be here. It's the law" This law is creating situations that allow the problem it was designed to protect against.

Anybody who has thought this through should be able to see that, but no. Because it's not about protecting women. It's about people who don't understand transgenderism and don't want to have to deal with it. So the way they chose to do that is by literally forcing themselves to be confronted with the problem in the bathroom. I swear to God, I'd laugh hysterically if it didn't make me want to cry and scream so much.

 

[Hikergirl]

I'm feeling a bit feminine today, and I think I'll wander into the ladies room. I'm dressed, and look like a man.

Dollars to donuts say I wind up in the pokey.

MG

My dh had a long day and was out pretty late at one of those 24 hour diners and wasn't paying attention and wandered into the ladies room. I didn't have to bail him out.

 

[fly girl]

Sweet baby Jesus, I was floored when this thread had 9 pages! Lol, 17 pages over this issue -- I don't get it, but that's just me.

 

[SirDuff]

So these laws are about protecting transgender people? Are you being serious? I've got a bridge to sell you.

Okay. What do YOU say the laws are about?

Are you, maybe, talking about different laws? Clearly, the law (in NC) stating that you have to use the bathroom that matches the sex you were born with is not about protecting transgender people. However, laws that state that establishments must allow people to use the bathroom of their gender (I saw on the elevator TV (so have to look up details) that public schools are going to be told this today) are (could be?) about protecting transgender people.

 

[SirDuff]

That's exactly what they did, and nobody cared because nobody knew. Except there was a tiny percentage of the time when they did know and sometimes that led to transgendered individuals being harassed for being in the bathroom of their gender. The germane part of this conversation, though, is that I and others have been following this issue for months and nobody has been able to unearth a single instance of a non-transgendered person pretending to be transgendered in order to enter the bathroom of the opposite sex. Not one. This NC law was literally passed to protect against a non-existent situation. And yet the people in favor of it can't seem to figure out why people are against this law

In the meantime, it now places transgendered individuals into a really bad situation where they are now forced to use a bathroom where they will stand out, because their public appearance doesn't "match their plumbing" as so many people like to say (I hate that phrase!). So now you will have female-to-male transgendered individuals who are walking into the women's restroom looking like a male. This is the part that is so crazy to me! Well okay it all makes me crazy, but let's walk though this part. The proponents of this law are like "I don't want a man in the women's restroom" but that is literally exactly what they have asked for! So they defend the law by saying "this prevents perverts from entering the women's restroom" but if I was a smart, male, non-trangendered pervert I'd be jumping for joy because now all I'd have to do is say "Oh no, I'm really female. I'm supposed to be here. It's the law" This law is creating situations that allow the problem it was designed to protect against.

Anybody who has thought this through should be able to see that, but no. Because it's not about protecting women. It's about people who don't understand transgenderism and don't want to have to deal with it. So the way they chose to do that is by literally forcing themselves to be confronted with the problem in the bathroom. I swear to God, I'd laugh hysterically if it didn't make me want to cry and scream so much.

You said it much better than I did. But that is what I really don't get. Ignoring the question of right/wrong, the law is just stupid because it creates the situation that it was designed (or said to be designed) to remove (even though said situation didn't exist until the law was created).

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Ahh, the old you're intolerant because you don't tolerate my intolerance. When someone has to pull that out, they've lost the argument. It's like saying you have no real reasoning or justification for your stance.

Huh?? Tolerance works both ways.... Doesn't it? You know, otherwise it would be "agree with me otherwise you are wrong".
I don't see how that is losing an arguement. I am more than happy to debate that, but I don't think this is the proper forum.

MG

 

[sunshinehighway]

Huh?? Tolerance works both ways.... Doesn't it? You know, otherwise it would be "agree with me otherwise you are wrong".
I don't see how that is losing an arguement. I am more than happy to debate that, but I don't think this is the proper forum.

MG

Tolerance works both ways but not the way you are using it.
Disagreeing with an opinion does not make you intolerant.

 

[Hrhpd]

Huh?? Tolerance works both ways.... Doesn't it? You know, otherwise it would be "agree with me otherwise you are wrong".
I don't see how that is losing an arguement. I am more than happy to debate that, but I don't think this is the proper forum.

MG

Works both ways? Yes and no. Simple beliefs yes. Bigotry in action (not you, but what is being hid behind for these laws) is never a cause for tolerance. I can be tolerant of a person's views, usually hidden behind religion, as long as they keep them to themselves. But when those views are put into action, creating and supporting laws that take away rights from fellow citizens, that is not and should never be tolerated.

Back in the civil rights movement, I could tolerate a person believing races that should not mix. I have to tolerate that. It is a person's right to believe what they want. I can secretly think what an idiot they are, but in person, I have to respect their right to their beliefs.

However, when those beliefs are put into action and equal rights are denied such as the right to marry each other, the right to use the proper bathroom in public places, the right to be a fully equal citizen in society, that should never be tolerated.

In other words, your belief that transgender people should use the bathroom of their DNA assigned sex should be tolerated. It is your right to believe that. Putting those beliefs in action and creating laws to keep people in the transgender community from using the bathroom of their gender should never, ever be tolerated. So, I tolerate your beliefs. I do not tolerate your support of the NC law.

Thank goodness those beliefs were not tolerated in the 60's and those beliefs are not being tolerated by the majority for another group of marginalized citizens in the 2010's.

 

[wvjules]

I am talking about the law in NC that prohibits transgender people from using the bathroom with which they identify....you have to use the bathroom that matches the "parts" you have. That is in no way meant to protect transgender people.

 

[L&Lfan]

Try dealing without toilet seats. I've visited parts of Asia where squat toilets are still pretty common. I walked into a KFC restroom with only squat toilets, and just waited untill I got back to the hotel.

OMG, if I had to squat to do my thing, I'd never be able to get back up!

 

[Laz]

As a retired high school teacher who taught for 27 years, I have to say that this could be a world of trouble. I have "surprised" many young people doing improper things in restrooms that have restrictions (yes, male and female in the stalls of male restrooms on occassions), and can't begin to imagine what will happen if you make changes. Remember you are dealing with under developed minds that have poor decision making skills.

 

[bcla]

It's been mentioned previously, but the part of the NC law that deals with bathrooms is really just a smokescreen. That part is or actually unenforceable and from I've read doesn't even set penalties.

What the law is really about is preempting local laws that provide civil rights protections based on LBGT status. The special session was held before Charlotte's local ordinance would go into effect. What's rather galling is that the text specifically couches its justification as providing uniform civil rights protections. It also makes it impossible to sue for civil rights violations in court.

http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2015E2/Bills/House/PDF/H2v4.pdf

 

[Uncle Remus]

It's been mentioned previously, but the part of the NC law that deals with bathrooms is really just a smokescreen. That part is or actually unenforceable and from I've read doesn't even set penalties.

What the law is really about is preempting local laws that provide civil rights protections based on LBGT status. The special session was held before Charlotte's local ordinance would go into effect. What's rather galling is that the text specifically couches its justification as providing uniform civil rights protections. It also makes it impossible to sue for civil rights violations in court.

http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2015E2/Bills/House/PDF/H2v4.pdf

The bolded part above is what should anger any American, that if you live in this particular state you have no legal recourse to file suit in a state court for a violation of any civil right.

 

[luvsJack]

As a retired high school teacher who taught for 27 years, I have to say that this could be a world of trouble. I have "surprised" many young people doing improper things in restrooms that have restrictions (yes, male and female in the stalls of male restrooms on occassions), and can't begin to imagine what will happen if you make changes. Remember you are dealing with under developed minds that have poor decision making skills.

So, in other words, transgenders NOT having the right to use the restroom of the gender they identify with has NOT stopped any of what you described? But some how the assumption is that it will make it worse? How so?

Someone on FB this morning talked about their 2nd grader having a transgender child (female to male) in her class and that if the child is given the right to use the male restroom her dd will not even be able to go pee at school because she will be too afraid. Whaaaaa??? I couldn't figure out the connection of a child using the boy's restroom to her daughter being afraid of going to the girl's restroom. Made no sense but then neither do most of the arguments about this.

 

[bcla]

The bolded part above is what should anger any American, that if you live in this particular state you have no legal recourse to file suit in a state court for a violation of any civil right.

It shunts all complains to a human rights commission.

If anything, this law seems to be more of a liability reduction for businesses that might intend on illegal discrimnation. That's on top of preventing local government from passing their own anti discrimnation laws.

 

[Hrhpd]

As a retired high school teacher who taught for 27 years, I have to say that this could be a world of trouble. I have "surprised" many young people doing improper things in restrooms that have restrictions (yes, male and female in the stalls of male restrooms on occassions), and can't begin to imagine what will happen if you make changes. Remember you are dealing with under developed minds that have poor decision making skills.

It works in our school district. There are several elementary school children in the transgender community in our district, thus the bathrooms are all gender friendly.

I don't think you give young children enough credit. These young children will stand up for the rights of their transgendered friends. I remember one day volunteering in the kindergarten. A sub did attendance and read off the names. While the legal records had been changed, for some reason she had an old class list with the old name on it. She referred to the child as the wrong gender. The entire class corrected the teacher, acting surprised that anyone would think their friend any different than they knew them.

If we start the learning early, hopefully the hate will be erased or at least tempered. We want those underdeveloped minds to develop accepting their classmates.

 

[Laz]

So, in other words, transgenders NOT having the right to use the restroom of the gender they identify with has NOT stopped any of what you described? But some how the assumption is that it will make it worse? How so?

Someone on FB this morning talked about their 2nd grader having a transgender child (female to male) in her class and that if the child is given the right to use the male restroom her dd will not even be able to go pee at school because she will be too afraid. Whaaaaa??? I couldn't figure out the connection of a child using the boy's restroom to her daughter being afraid of going to the girl's restroom. Made no sense but then neither do most of the arguments about this.

It is not about anything you mentioned. It is about a young, undeveloped mind. You can not just open the doors and say make a decision. The President can not just write a letter and dictate an open door policy in a school full of teenagers and expect them to behave responsibly. A methodical, careful education process must be planned and implemented.