To the DISer whose husband was looking for a teaching job

[fac]

But the issue at hand, it seems, is whether or not it was fair that these teachers were fired. To me, it does seem fair under the circumstances. The teachers were given a set of conditions, were told what they had to do to keep their jobs, and they chose not to do that. So they were fired WITH warning, despite (because of?) having a union. It really seems that it was the union that led the teachers to believe they had job security when in fact, they didn't. Doesn't sound like the union is working for the teachers or the students, actually.


.

Well said.

union is a touchy subject. It is good to protect working Americans, but on the other hand, it is a shelter for many lazy, unmotivated individuals. May be I do not understand the school system, but I just don't know how the teachers' be evaluated. Without a union, do we just consider a teacher as incompetent or lazy just because of parents complain? or does the principal have the absolute power? and what happens to bad administrators?

But then isn't it happening across America, that good people was let go, if, for any reason, they do not get along well with their managers? or work is not assigned evenly?

I certainly do not have an answer, and can only wish the teachers to enjoy their union while they still have it. I am puzzled by the rep's statement on "right to nefotigate time and money" that he expected the rest of the world to wait for him to negotigate forever.

 

[disneyandme]

I have yet to read a post on this thread with a possible solution to this problem. Doesn't anybody have any ideas?

I have worked in several low performing schools. You are looking for solutions and here are a few that have worked:
1. Hired additional teachers to teach remedial reading and math. A child can't learn history well if they can't read close to grade level. They can't learn algebra well if they don't know basic math. keep these classes extremely small so that kids have alot of one on one attention. Keep kids in remediation until they are ready to handle coursework. trickle this down into the feeder middle/junior schools and elementary schools so that the problem doesn't continue year after year.
2. Do not pass kids who are not at or near grade level. Mandate summer school for those who need it. Change laws that require parents consent for retention.
3. Hire a trunancy officer who checks daily on kids who are absent. Take steps against families who have children who are consistantly absent.
4. Provide ESL classes for both kids and parents until they are fluent and can manage in English the normal course load.

Problems- This costs money not saves as the firing of everyone does. Laws/Rules must be change about retention and pulling kids out for remediation. An investment has to be made across all levels of schools in the district and maintained overtime. The extra money/help for low performing schools usually dries up as soon as they pull up scores minimally and the cycle begins all over again.

 

[fac]

Personally, I don't think there is one person on this board that would be happy to add another 4-14 hours to their work week, unpaid. Period.

not exactly. I tended to put extra time on my work because it was fun. It bugged me if I could not resolve a problem. Then at the time when I managed, I was mindful that my team stayed long because they felt they were obligated to stay, I constantly reminded them to go home.

A lot depends on the profession, the environment, the culture of the firm and the time in your life.

 

[MM27]

NCLB is no joke.

No, NCLB is a huge joke. NCLB doesn't help kids. It sets them up for failure.

 

[MrsPete]

And everyone thinks they know how to do the job.

Everyone went to school . . . so everyone knows everything about being a teacher, right? You'd think so to hear all the experts rant and rail about what teachers do and don't do!

Thanks. I do know. I had taught a few years in the college level (not as a TA, but as a full time instructor) while in graduate school, therefore I would be entitled to my pension had I stayed for 25 years. (Not going into why I left) LOL.

My point was that the pension, the medical benefit are part of the teaching package, and those are nice benefits not in many professions . . .

Who's whining? I'm pointing out incorrect information, misconceptions about teaching. If I were going to whine, I could talk about how we've had two pay cuts and a huge increase in insurance costs over the last year. I could talk about how our supply budget's been cut and we're spending even more out of our own pockets than ever. There are things in teaching about which we could whine.

I fully acknowledge that our benefits are nice, although I can only wish that they were as nice as people seem to think they are. Without those benefits -- specifically without the pension -- I wouldn't be teaching. What I do isn't worth JUST the paycheck.

And I don't think teaching college for a few years in graduate school is really the same as teaching public school. College students choose to be there and -- at least in theory -- they are more intelligent, more motivated, less in need of special ed-type modifications, and less in need of discipline than a public school class.

Never thought about that point. Are they able to collect unemployment during that time period?

No, but many young teachers who are low on the pay scale do work another job during the summer. In fact, many of them work a second job during the school year.

In Alabama, you can't collect unemployment, because it's an unpaid leave of absence. You also don't get benefits, such as medical insurance. You have to either buy private insurance or purchase COBRA.

We continue to have our same medical insurance, but we have double deductions taken out in May and June to cover the premiums for the two months when we don't get checks.

Similarly, I used to have a car payment directly deducted from my paycheck, and the teachers' credit union set it up so that I made a payment 10 times a year (one for each of my 10 paychecks), and I didn't owe anything in the two months when I don't receive a paycheck. A regular bank won't do that, so teachers like to use the credit union; it just makes life a little more simple.

 

[daughtersrus]

I certainly do not have an answer, and can only wish the teachers to enjoy their union while they still have it. I am puzzled by the rep's statement on "right to nefotigate time and money" that he expected the rest of the world to wait for him to negotigate forever.

Why do you think that unions are going to go away?

All of what happened in RI happened pretty quickly. I think that from the time the district was notified until they fired the staff was about 30 days. We don't know exactly when the union became involved in this process. They have a contract in place so of course the union would want to be involved with any changes that the district was wanting to make. After all, they (both the union and the school district) signed a legally binding contract that is in effect until 2011.

 

[MrsPete]

To paraphrase MrsPete: the union also protects teachers from false allegations, protects teachers from getting fired because they dared to give a school board member's child a detention (or a friend of a school board member) and provides them with a sense of stability in their pay and benefits.

Yes, other professions can have their pay sliced, be fired for no reason, have their benefits taken without any say other than to quit their job, but no one likes living that way.

It seems to me people are just plain jealous that the teachers have a modicum of job stability that other people don't have. Rather than wanting to take that away from teachers, people should try to get that in their own profession.

Not quite. I'm in a non-union state. TENURE gives experienced teachers, teachers who've proven their worth over time stability. Tenure means that we cannot be fired WITHOUT CAUSE.

Most of us have LITIGATION INSURANCE through the unions (NEA being the big boy on the block, but certainly not the only one -- personally, I'm with PENC). NOthingi can protect us from false allegations, but this insurance pays our legal costs IF someone accuses us of something (falsely -- it doesn't pay if you lose in court).

I am not particularly a fan of unions. It seems to me that they cost a great deal to operate, and although I'm sure they did serve an important purpose in past generations, today we have laws to govern the way employees are treated. I think they hurt just as much as they help today. However, I have never been a member of a union, so I'm not an expert on that topic.

union is a touchy subject. It is good to protect working Americans, but on the other hand, it is a shelter for many lazy, unmotivated individuals.

Again, I'm not an expert on unions -- not at all -- but my impression is that they're a bit like political parties: out to perpetuate themselves rather than to help the people whom they claim to support.

 

[MrsPete]

I have worked in several low performing schools. You are looking for solutions and here are a few that have worked:
1. Hired additional teachers to teach remedial reading and math. A child can't learn history well if they can't read close to grade level. They can't learn algebra well if they don't know basic math. keep these classes extremely small so that kids have alot of one on one attention. Keep kids in remediation until they are ready to handle coursework. trickle this down into the feeder middle/junior schools and elementary schools so that the problem doesn't continue year after year.
2. Do not pass kids who are not at or near grade level. Mandate summer school for those who need it. Change laws that require parents consent for retention.
3. Hire a trunancy officer who checks daily on kids who are absent. Take steps against families who have children who are consistantly absent.
4. Provide ESL classes for both kids and parents until they are fluent and can manage in English the normal course load.

Problems- This costs money not saves as the firing of everyone does. Laws/Rules must be change about retention and pulling kids out for remediation. An investment has to be made across all levels of schools in the district and maintained overtime. The extra money/help for low performing schools usually dries up as soon as they pull up scores minimally and the cycle begins all over again.

Yes, those things would lead to improvement in the kids' education -- especially #1 and #3.

 

[MrsPete]

not exactly. I tended to put extra time on my work because it was fun. It bugged me if I could not resolve a problem. Then at the time when I managed, I was mindful that my team stayed long because they felt they were obligated to stay, I constantly reminded them to go home.

A lot depends on the profession, the environment, the culture of the firm and the time in your life.

And in this mindset, consider that many teachers choose this job because it is mom-friendly. It allows us more time with our kids, and we have the freedom to do much of our grading/planning at home in the evenings. If you take away the nice, flexible schedule, where's the motivation to accept the low paycheck? It's a trade-off.

 

[fac]

No, NCLB is a huge joke. NCLB doesn't help kids. It sets them up for failure.

lack of a better alternative, I happen to like NCLB.. Now, I am going to see how Obama is going to change it...
Bottom line, no matter what policy, there will always be people not doing their jobs.

 

[fac]

Why do you think that unions are going to go away?

I don't know, probably they won't go away. My apology if you mis-read it as I think it will go away.

 

[TheDisneyGirl02]

I have worked in several low performing schools. You are looking for solutions and here are a few that have worked:
1. Hired additional teachers to teach remedial reading and math. A child can't learn history well if they can't read close to grade level. They can't learn algebra well if they don't know basic math. keep these classes extremely small so that kids have alot of one on one attention. Keep kids in remediation until they are ready to handle coursework. trickle this down into the feeder middle/junior schools and elementary schools so that the problem doesn't continue year after year.
2. Do not pass kids who are not at or near grade level. Mandate summer school for those who need it. Change laws that require parents consent for retention.
3. Hire a trunancy officer who checks daily on kids who are absent. Take steps against families who have children who are consistantly absent.
4. Provide ESL classes for both kids and parents until they are fluent and can manage in English the normal course load.

Problems- This costs money not saves as the firing of everyone does. Laws/Rules must be change about retention and pulling kids out for remediation. An investment has to be made across all levels of schools in the district and maintained overtime. The extra money/help for low performing schools usually dries up as soon as they pull up scores minimally and the cycle begins all over again.

Those sound like great suggestions and a way for teachers and parents to work together to help the kids succeed.

No, NCLB is a huge joke. NCLB doesn't help kids. It sets them up for failure.

It is a huge joke.

lack of a better alternative, I happen to like NCLB.. Now, I am going to see how Obama is going to change it...
Bottom line, no matter what policy, there will always be people not doing their jobs.

There is a bottom line with NCLB too - there is no way that every child will be proficient in every subject. It just won't happen regardless of how much information is crammed down their throats, it just won't happen.

Is the idea that everyone will be on the same page a good idea? Yes but it's not practical.

 

[chobie]

Not quite. I'm in a non-union state. TENURE gives experienced teachers, teachers who've proven their worth over time stability. Tenure means that we cannot be fired WITHOUT CAUSE.

Most of us have LITIGATION INSURANCE through the unions (NEA being the big boy on the block, but certainly not the only one -- personally, I'm with PENC). NOthingi can protect us from false allegations, but this insurance pays our legal costs IF someone accuses us of something (falsely -- it doesn't pay if you lose in court).

I am not particularly a fan of unions. It seems to me that they cost a great deal to operate, and although I'm sure they did serve an important purpose in past generations, today we have laws to govern the way employees are treated. I think they hurt just as much as they help today. However, I have never been a member of a union, so I'm not an expert on that topic.
Again, I'm not an expert on unions -- not at all -- but my impression is that they're a bit like political parties: out to perpetuate themselves rather than to help the people whom they claim to support.

Well, I think when most people bash the teachers unions it is the tenure part that they have a problem with and they associate tenure with the union. So, unions or not, tenure is not something teachers are going to willingly give up, nor should they give it up.

Having worked at union and non-union jobs, I can say that the union is a lesser evil. BTW, my DH has taught in two union states and in both states, the teachers did not have to pay extra for medical insurance during the summer months and in Florida the pension does not come out of their paychecks -- it is considered part of their benefits package though.

 

[chobie]

no, nclb is a huge joke. Nclb doesn't help kids. It sets them up for failure.

ita.

 

[chobie]

Well said.

union is a touchy subject. It is good to protect working Americans, but on the other hand, it is a shelter for many lazy, unmotivated individuals. May be I do not understand the school system, but I just don't know how the teachers' be evaluated. Without a union, do we just consider a teacher as incompetent or lazy just because of parents complain? or does the principal have the absolute power? and what happens to bad administrators?

But then isn't it happening across America, that good people was let go, if, for any reason, they do not get along well with their managers? or work is not assigned evenly?

I certainly do not have an answer, and can only wish the teachers to enjoy their union while they still have it. I am puzzled by the rep's statement on "right to nefotigate time and money" that he expected the rest of the world to wait for him to negotigate forever.

Right, but those aren't good things are they? If all over America people could be pushed off bridges by their bosses, would that make it okay?

 

[fac]

Who's whining? I'm pointing out incorrect information, misconceptions about teaching. If I were going to whine, I could talk about how we've had two pay cuts and a huge increase in insurance costs over the last year. I could talk about how our supply budget's been cut and we're spending even more out of our own pockets than ever. There are things in teaching about which we could whine.

I fully acknowledge that our benefits are nice, although I can only wish that they were as nice as people seem to think they are. Without those benefits -- specifically without the pension -- I wouldn't be teaching. What I do isn't worth JUST the paycheck.

And I don't think teaching college for a few years in graduate school is really the same as teaching public school. College students choose to be there and -- at least in theory -- they are more intelligent, more motivated, less in need of special ed-type modifications, and less in need of discipline than a public school class.

I didn't say you were whinning, did I ?

On the other hand, I was pointing out the fact that when people complained the pay is lower than other profession, they should not work extra hours without pay, they neglected to bring up some of the benefits. As you have honestly admitted that without those benefits, you won't be teaching. In fact, I recognized that you even included pension early on..

But it is an unfair (yes, it is whinning) for someone to argue that he/she works long hours, the pay is low, no time for lunch etc... they know about this,along with the benefit package, before going into teaching. I can understand when people argue the extra time is outside of their contracted hour, hence they are not willing to be taken advantage of, but don't just give us the we already worked long hours, underpaid etc.. my only suggestion is to get another job, as many people work extra hours without pay. Obviously, the teachers have the right not to work overtime as in the RI case.

Did I equate college teaching as public school teaching??I brought it up only to show that I am aware of the pension... probably you know too, depends on the college, the pressure to tenure is unreal. Bottom line, we can't really compare one profession with another.

 

[fac]

And in this mindset, consider that many teachers choose this job because it is mom-friendly. It allows us more time with our kids, and we have the freedom to do much of our grading/planning at home in the evenings. If you take away the nice, flexible schedule, where's the motivation to accept the low paycheck? It's a trade-off.

I agree. I suspect it may be a major reason many teachers argue against the extra hours because it wasn't what they expect to go into the profession.

 

[fac]

Right, but those aren't good things are they? If all over America people could be pushed off bridges by their bosses, would that make it okay?

No, as you can see from my posts. We live in an imprefect world, I hope I have a good answer for it.

 

[chobie]

I didn't say you were whinning, did I ?

On the other hand, I was pointing out the fact that when people complained the pay is lower than other profession, they should not work extra hours without pay, they neglected to bring up some of the benefits. As you have honestly admitted that without those benefits, you won't be teaching. In fact, I recognized that you even included pension early on..

But it is an unfair (yes, it is whinning) for someone to argue that he/she works long hours, the pay is low, no time for lunch etc... they know about this,along with the benefit package, before going into teaching. I can understand when people argue the extra time is outside of their contracted hour, hence they are not willing to be taken advantage of, but don't just give us the we already worked long hours, underpaid etc.. my only suggestion is to get another job, as many people work extra hours without pay. Obviously, the teachers have the right not to work overtime as in the RI case.

Did I equate college teaching as public school teaching??I brought it up only to show that I am aware of the pension... probably you know too, depends on the college, the pressure to tenure is unreal. Bottom line, we can't really compare one profession with another.

It's not whining when its brought up to counter the claims of "teachers work 4 hours a day and make massive amounts of money" BS that perpetuates on boards like this. It's simply stating a fact that most teachers already put in many more hours than they are contracted to work and most teachers throughout this country do not make 70,000-80,000.

 

[Halbleib1]

My dear, you are sadly mistaken. We are NOT compensated for every minute over what is required. As I mentioned earlier. I have to tutor after school twice per week for 45 minutes AFTER our 7:20-3:50 workday. I am NOT compensated for that. I am not compensated when I have meetings with parents during my lunch time because that is the only time they can meet me. I am not compensated when I have to stay after school to meet with parents who can only meet at that time. My list can go on and on. You have some misguided idea of what a teacher endures. Please do not get me wrong. I love my job. I love working with students inspiring and helping them. I work at a school where parents could care less if their child learns what they need to let alone read a book to them.
I have not refered to it as slave labor and I haven't read where anybody else did either. The point the teachers in this thread are trying to make is that it is unreasonable to ask us to give up our very brief lunch break when we already bust our behinds on a daily basis as it is.
On another note; why don't you look into the statistics of how long many teachers teach. There are tons of teachers who teach for one year or a couple and then quit. These are the people who have this jaded view of reality like you do. They realize that teaching isn't such the cush job people like you make it out to be and they decide they don't want to put that much time or effort into it.

When you are paid salary you do not normally get paid for extra work in any job unless you are paid salary plus overtime. Teachers are not the only ones asked to work extra hours without extra pay. When they pay you a salary vs an hourly wage and you take the job they figure they are paying you enough to make up for any extra work that may be required. Some people depending on the job actually do not always work 40 hours in a week so when they do have to work more some weeks it about evens out in the end. Not saying this is true for all jobs but it is for some.


When teachers say they do not get paid for time off in the summer this is not totally true. How many other people working salary jobs get that much vacation time in a year? None that I can think of until they have been at a compay for years and years. More and more though companies are giving less vacation even to those there for years. Being salary without overtime their yearly pay is not changing because they work two extra months that teachers do not. And some of these people are making less or about the same as teachers on these boards are saying they make. The big difference being that non teachers are being paid that same wage for 12 months of work vs teachers being paid the same for 10 months of work.

For example: My husband had a job making 30,000 a year no matter how many hours he put in. He only got two weeks of paid time off a year. This two weeks included his vacation/sick and personal time off. He had no other benefits at this job. Healthcare was offered but was very expensive and did not cover much. What it did cover had co- pays and high deductibles to meet.

Another Example: My husband worked as a drafter/design instructor at a local college for a year and he did not get paid for overtime there either. If he had to stay late he did not get paid any extra. If he did not finish his lesson plans/grading papers etc. during his free time at work he had to finish it at home without being paid extra. He had to attend graduation without extra pay as well. That is what a salary position with no overtime is. You work what is required for a set amount of pay for the year. Also they did not get summers off because they had classes all year. While the students would get two weeks off between semesters my husband did not. He was expected to show up to work and get ready for the next semester. Unless he used his two weeks of vacation during this time. Which they were encouraged to do so as not to interupt class.

That being said he enjoyed his job there. He enjoyed interacting with the students. He worked more hours than at most other jobs but he liked arriving home most nights earlier than from other jobs. Even though once he was home his job was not usually over. He had papers to grade or tests to prepare etc.

BTW: He did not choose to leave this job he was laid off because of changes they were making in that department.