Thoughts on visiting other cultures

[disneysteve]

I apologize if there is another thread on this topic but I didn't see one.

I have very mixed feelings about the discussion on the show about visiting Egypt, Tunisia, etc. Certainly, if any individual feels personally unsafe or uncomfortable about a particular place, by all means don't go there.

However, suggesting that Disney Cruise shouldn't stop in a port because guests were sent back to the ship to change their clothing kind of typifies the "ugly American" stereotype that causes other cultures to dislike Americans. There are plenty of places around the world, and even many places right here in the US, where visitors are expected to dress and behave a certain way. I think it is incumbent upon us to respect the views and beliefs of others even if we don't agree with them or practice them ourselves. In many churches, synagogues and mosques throughout the US and the world, visitors need to be dressed modestly, no shorts, no exposed shoulders or bellies, etc. When I visited the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, I removed my shoes along with every other visitor because that was the rule in that culture. In Orthodox synagogues, women and men are separated for services and events. I can't sit with my wife and daughter if we go to an Orthodox temple. Do we share that belief? Nope. But we honor and respect it when we are in their place.

I have not traveled to Egypt but I can tell you that many Jewish-run trips to Israel, including past trips sponsored by our synagogue, included visits to Petra (one of the Indiana Jones films was filmed there). So I have many Jewish friends and relatives who have been to Egypt, some of them multiple times.

So perhaps I read too much into the podcast comments, but it sounded like they were suggesting that ABD and DCL shouldn't go to ports and destinations where the cultures have different rules and expectations of visitors. I think visiting those places is very educational and eye-opening for a lot of people.

 

[jcb]

I didn't take the discussion the same way you did. I took it as DCL/ABD not going places where guest safety had a reasonable chance of being compromised or where the state sponsored practices were oppressive toward women and gays.

I didn't hear any of the podcast crew say not to observe local customs. I suppose you might could read that into telling folks to go back on the ship and change but considering the entire comment, I think it was more about safety/practices than customs.

I seem to recall a prior discussion where Kevin talked about conforming to local customs, such as not wearing shorts in the Sistine Chapel. I could be imagining things, however.

 

[FireDancer]

I think when you visit another country you should do your best to assimilate to their culture. If I were visiting a country where men were expected to cover their heads, not wear shorts, or remove their shoes when entering a building I would do so. If I didn't want to do any of these things I would not go there or, in the case of a cruise, stay on the ship. I don't think Disney or any other country should boycott traveling somewhere because their culture is different then ours. While I don't like some things about the way other countries treat women, censor news, or integrate their religion too much with their government it is their right to do so. If the people living there have a problem with it then they need to take it up with their government. I would not avoid traveling to a place where I want to because of any of these things. There are some places I would avoid because it is just too dangerous to go there as an American (or even a westerner), but I wouldn't expect others to do the same if they didn't want to.

I think it is an important part of being a good traveler.

All of this is merely my opinion of course.

 

[corky441]

I think when you visit another country you should do your best to assimilate to their culture. If I were visiting a country where men were expected to cover their heads, not wear shorts, or remove their shoes when entering a building I would do so. If I didn't want to do any of these things I would not go there or, in the case of a cruise, stay on the ship. I don't think Disney or any other country should boycott traveling somewhere because their culture is different then ours. While I don't like some things about the way other countries treat women, censor news, or integrate their religion too much with their government it is their right to do so. If the people living there have a problem with it then they need to take it up with their government. I would not avoid traveling to a place where I want to because of any of these things. There are some places I would avoid because it is just too dangerous to go there as an American (or even a westerner), but I wouldn't expect others to do the same if they didn't want to.

I think it is an important part of being a good traveler.

All of this is merely my opinion of course.

I'm sorry, but these are the reasons I would not travel to a particular place and or country ...

And as you said, This is just MY opinion

 

[mikelan6]

I think what the podcast crew was refering to was more of a sentiment that if the country has an issue against my religion, or homophobia, then I don't want to spend any money there and I also don't want my company (I'm a Disney shareholder) to spend money there.

 

[cathie1327]

I think in the instance of being told to go back on the ship and change, it was more than just a cultural expectation, and more about a danger to the women if they didn't comply. And I think what the podcast team was saying (I could be totally off base) is that they're not sure if Disney should be taking people to places where it could be very dangerous for them. Part of the fun of an ABD trip is the free time you get to explore on your own and interact with the local people and atmosphere, and as they discussed, being on your own in Egypt might be very scary, especially for women, from what I understand.

And also, as a side note, as my own personal opinion (respecting everyone else's, of course), it DOES make me want to NOT visit a country based on how they treat their women, minoritorities, censorship, etc. as previously mentioned. I believe in cultural diversity but I also believe in freedom and human rights, and if I feel a country is doing something that crosses those lines, I'm not supporting them by spending money to be there, and I think Disney needs to decide where they stand morally on issues like that, as well. Mike brought up a great point saying that he's a shareholder and doesn't support those things, therefore doesn't want a company he's invested in to support it either.

Again, just my personal opinion, and not meant to be disrespectful toward anyone else's.

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

I think the wardrobe issue is totally separate. I don't have any issue at ALL with Disney telling people what to wear when they get off the ship in different countries. Yeah, they should tell you in advance, but you should abide by local custom.

As to the Jewish/homophobia issue, my personal opinion is that if you're going to boycott an entire country because of the opinions/actions of a fringe group, that's you're right. I'm sure there are plenty of Europeans who take a look at what's going on in our political scene right now and say, "No, thank you."

I, personally, a Jew and member of the GLBT community, can't wait to get to Egypt. But that's a personal decision that I've made for myself.

 

[Miss SD]

If I remember correctly, Pete also said the Tunisian officials delayed the cruise ship's departure because they didn't want to deal with the female officer the ship sent as its representative. Now that bothers me. The clothing issue not so much. Guest should be respectful of their host country's standards. And that also applies to foreigners who visit here. This might come as a shock to some, but Americans don't corner the market on "ugly" behavior.

 

[fall08CP]

I do want to note that I had several friends on the most recent Mediterranean cruise, and they said there were no "clothing checkers" when disembarking into Tunisia. They said there were many guests dressed inappropriately and they were not forced back to change. I wonder if Disney has changed their rules a bit since Pete + Walter took their trip in the Spring?

 

[DisneyKevin]

I think, as a person's travel agent, that it's my responsibility to alert a client to the as many possibilities as I can.

I would be remiss if I didnt let a gay couple know that homosexuality is against the law in their destination country and that gay people have been known to be badly mistreated / harmed.

I would be remiss if I didnt remind a woman traveler that women are not treated equally in their destination country and that they would be required to follow the local customs, including dress.

If I have done these things, than I feel I have done my job and the decision is up to my client.

Personally, I dont want to visit a country where I'm not welcome. I realize that's a personal choice. Everyone, once armed with information, is entitled to make that choice for themselves.

 

[Joshua_me]

For me, traveling to other countries and cultures where homosexuality is repressed and looked down upon and even presented as a possibility of some sort of violence would be like stepping back into the closet.

Not that Keith and I travel with rainbow flags or feather boa's, but we've reached a stage in our lives where pretending to be something we're not is no longer an option.

Not that America is some sort of panacea of acceptance, but at least here we're on "home turf" and know the options available.

Would I like to travel to Egypt or Tunisia ? Of course. But I have to weigh the options. Do I want to participate in a culture that treats women and gays like second class citizens ? I really don't think that I would.

That being said, I completely agree with observing another culture's traditions. But, I also agree with knowing when that willingness to participate is no longer an option.

 

[dizneedoll]

I think when you visit another country you should do your best to assimilate to their culture. If I were visiting a country where men were expected to cover their heads, not wear shorts, or remove their shoes when entering a building I would do so. If I didn't want to do any of these things I would not go there or, in the case of a cruise, stay on the ship. I don't think Disney or any other country should boycott traveling somewhere because their culture is different then ours. While I don't like some things about the way other countries treat women, censor news, or integrate their religion too much with their government it is their right to do so. If the people living there have a problem with it then they need to take it up with their government. I would not avoid traveling to a place where I want to because of any of these things. There are some places I would avoid because it is just too dangerous to go there as an American (or even a westerner), but I wouldn't expect others to do the same if they didn't want to.

I think it is an important part of being a good traveler.

All of this is merely my opinion of course.

So, is it the right of a country to cut off the ears and nose of a woman that runs away from an abusive husband? Check out the Aug 9, 2010 issue of Time Magazine featuring an 18 year old muslim girl who ran away from her husband because of abuse and the court...the judge ordered that she be made of example of what happens to women if they leave thier husbands. The husband himself cut her ears off in the courtroom, she passed out from the pain and then he cut her nose out. They left her die on the side of a hill but US troops found her and took care of her and kept her safe. And that's one story out of thousands. Women have acid thrown in thier faces for going to school and young girls are subjected to mutiliation. I'm sorry people, I DO NOT RESPECT ANY CULTURE, COUNTRY OR RELIGION THAT PRACTICES THESE HORRIFIC ACTS AND I DON'T THINK ANY COUNTRY OR RELIGION HAS A RIGHT TO DO IT! And personally, I would object to any American going into countries that support and promote these ruthless kinds of acts. And shame on Disney for supporting this and rewarding these kinds of things.

I should note that the country that this happened to the young woman was not Tunisa but Afghanistan. Both, however, are totaltarian regimes that disregard all human rights and both act according to muslim law (sh'aria law).

From Wikipedia:
Tunisia has an authoritarian regime in the guise of a procedural democracy led by Zine El Abidine Ben Ali who has governed as President since 1987 and has systematically diminished freedom of press and political pluralism while keeping appearances of democracy...Tunisia is considered a procedural democracy, it is often referred to as an authoritarian regime and police state. Independent human rights groups, such as Amnesty International, Freedom House, and Protection International have documented that basic human and political rights are not respected.

An authoritarian police state that doesn't respect human rights? Yeah, I can't wait to go.

 

[Emiel]

However, suggesting that Disney Cruise shouldn't stop in a port because guests were sent back to the ship to change their clothing kind of typifies the "ugly American" stereotype that causes other cultures to dislike Americans. There are plenty of places around the world, and even many places right here in the US, where visitors are expected to dress and behave a certain way.

The problem with this year's first Med cruise was that the "clothing issue" was not announced on neither the navigators nor in the excursion descriptions. DCL changed that (we had friends on the next cruise and it was announced up front there). That was what was bothering us. When visiting Rome for example in the description of the excursion it said that you needed appropriate clothing for visiting the Vatican, so no problem there..
People were sent back by DCL by the way to change their clothes, before the leaving the Magic.

Not visiting Tunesia had more to do with the fact that many of us did not feel safe visiting the Medina of Tunis (I personally felt safe all the time) and the fact that Tunisian officials did not want to deal with the female officer the ship sent as its representative on arrival.

I would like to add that in my humble opinion it is important to show respect for other cultures, but I expected other cultures to show respect for my believes too.

 

[FireDancer]

So, is it the right of a country to cut off the ears and nose of a woman that runs away from an abusive husband? Check out the Aug 9, 2010 issue of Time Magazine featuring an 18 year old muslim girl who ran away from her husband because of abuse and the court...the judge ordered that she be made of example of what happens to women if they leave thier husbands. The husband himself cut her ears off in the courtroom, she passed out from the pain and then he cut her nose out. They left her die on the side of a hill but US troops found her and took care of her and kept her safe. And that's one story out of thousands. Women have acid thrown in thier faces for going to school and young girls are subjected to mutiliation. I'm sorry people, I DO NOT RESPECT ANY CULTURE, COUNTRY OR RELIGION THAT PRACTICES THESE HORRIFIC ACTS AND I DON'T THINK ANY COUNTRY OR RELIGION HAS A RIGHT TO DO IT! And personally, I would object to any American going into countries that support and promote these ruthless kinds of acts. And shame on Disney for supporting this and rewarding these kinds of things.

I should note that the country that this happened to the young woman was not Tunisa but Afghanistan. Both, however, are totaltarian regimes that disregard all human rights and both act according to muslim law (sh'aria law).

Is it alright? No

Do I feel it is my responsibility to fix it? Also no. I feel no need to be an activist in a country in which I don't live. That is what their citizenry is for.

I would also make sure that while in the country I don't do anything to suffer the above punishment.

As far as I know Disney isn't going to be cruising to Afghanistan anytime soon though (or any country we are currently at war with). As for Tunisia, it is a historically significant place and while not perfect it is one of 3 countries in Africa I would visit in a heartbeat if given the chance (the others being Morocco and Tanzania).

By all means though if you or anyone else doesn't feel comfortable there don't go. That is the advantage of free will and choice of which I am quite a fan.

 

[disneysteve]

The problem with this year's first Med cruise was that the "clothing issue" was not announced on neither the navigators nor in the excursion descriptions.

That certainly shouldn't have happened. As Keven said, travel agents should have shared that info. The cruise line should have shared that info. Nobody should have stepped off the ship not knowing what was expected of them.

Not visiting Tunesia had more to do with the fact that many of us did not feel safe visiting the Medina of Tunis (I personally felt safe all the time)

And this is a personal decision that we all must make no matter where we go, foreign or domestic. My wife and I battle on this one periodically. I like to wander and explore. She does not. We had that disagreement on a cruise stop in Progreso, Merida a few years ago.

 

[dizneedoll]

Is it alright? No

Do I feel it is my responsibility to fix it? Also no. I feel no need to be an activist in a country in which I don't live. That is what their citizenry is for.

I would also make sure that while in the country I don't do anything to suffer the above punishment.

As far as I know Disney isn't going to be cruising to Afghanistan anytime soon though (or any country we are currently at war with). As for Tunisia, it is a historically significant place and while not perfect it is one of 3 countries in Africa I would visit in a heartbeat if given the chance (the others being Morocco and Tanzania).

By all means though if you or anyone else doesn't feel comfortable there don't go. That is the advantage of free will and choice of which I am quite a fan.

Well, I am a fan of freedom too so we can agree on that. The problem is, the objective is not too just oppress their own people but to spread the oppresion to as many countries as they can, including ours. I've been married into this world and I know first hand the hatred they have for us. They do not care if you are respectful or not. I mentioned Afghanistan because you said "any country" and didn't limit your opinion to just where ever it is that DCL is sailing to. Maybe we cannot, as individuals, fix these things but neither do I think it should be swept under the carpet and be treated as flippantly as you are treating it. But as Kevin said on the podcast, we can speak with our dollars and not give any to any country that supports torture and brutality to its own citizens.

 

[ragtopday]

Not to belabor the point (aw, who am I kidding?), but for me there is a big difference in experiencing other cultures (which I embrace) and visiting a culture which has a well known record of human rights violations of any kind. Respect is a two way street. As a non-religious person I would respectfully follow any customs when visiting a house of worship, even if they are not my own beliefs. That is part of experiencing something new and different. But putting myself, or my fellow travel members in possible physical (or psychological) harm due to sanctioned oppression (even if by a "fringe" group) is not acceptable to me personally.

The nice thing is we're all able to make the decisions about this that we feel we can live with. I think that's what the Podcast team was trying to say also.

 

[disneysteve]

But as Kevin said on the podcast, we can speak with our dollars and not give any to any country that supports torture and brutality to its own citizens.

I guess what I wonder is if this actually works. Do boycotts really accomplish the intended goal or do they end up hurting the little guy and having little to no effect on the government or the big corporation? We talked about this after the BP spill and people were not buying BP gas. That ended up hurting all of the independent station owners who don't work for BP and had absolutely nothing to do with the spill.

Is the same true of travel? By not going to a country with a government that has oppressive policies, are we hurting the folks who are being oppressed? Would we accomplish more toward empowering those oppressed citizens by visiting their country, spending our money in their shops and restaurants, buying their goods and putting money into their pockets?

I certainly don't know the answer but I think it is worth thinking about.

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

Not to belabor the point (aw, who am I kidding?), but for me there is a big difference in experiencing other cultures (which I embrace) and visiting a culture which has a well known record of human rights violations of any kind. Respect is a two way street. As a non-religious person I would respectfully follow any customs when visiting a house of worship, even if they are not my own beliefs. That is part of experiencing something new and different. But putting myself, or my fellow travel members in possible physical (or psychological) harm due to sanctioned oppression (even if by a "fringe" group) is not acceptable to me personally.

The nice thing is we're all able to make the decisions about this that we feel we can live with. I think that's what the Podcast team was trying to say also.

Right, but again, as an American, I live in a country where there is sanctioned oppression, possible physical harm, etc.

 

[DisneyKevin]

I guess what I wonder is if this actually works. Do boycotts really accomplish the intended goal or do they end up hurting the little guy and having little to no effect on the government or the big corporation? We talked about this after the BP spill and people were not buying BP gas. That ended up hurting all of the independent station owners who don't work for BP and had absolutely nothing to do with the spill.

Is the same true of travel? By not going to a country with a government that has oppressive policies, are we hurting the folks who are being oppressed? Would we accomplish more toward empowering those oppressed citizens by visiting their country, spending our money in their shops and restaurants, buying their goods and putting money into their pockets?

I certainly don't know the answer but I think it is worth thinking about.

Personally....I can not spend my hard earned dollars in a country that has outlawed my life and doesnt feel strongly about my safety while visiting.

I understand that something unfortunate can happen anywhere you travel, but when one is breaking the law simply by being....then I cant, in good conscience, support that economy.

I would never support any organization that espoused hate and violence.

Just cant do it.