The Running Thread - 2016

This is an excellent question. I've had some days like that, and in my case came up with fatigue as the issue... Meaning muscle fatigue that accumulated over a number of runs. I had a run just like that today. I walked for a mile until it became bearable and then picked back up for the last mile of my workout. I think the bigger question is, "how does this feeling of dead, heavy legs factor into perception of effort?" I'd like to hear some input from the more experienced runners.

To ME - and, again, this is another thing that varies from person-to-person ... dead legs means I'm not putting in the work OUTSIDE training runs. I'm not mixing up workouts (i.e. riding my bike, swimming, etc.) to give my muscles a break from the same motion over and over again. I'm not mixing up terrain and elevation (mixing up track, treadmill, hills, etc. instead of running the same path and camber every day). I'm not rolling, stretching, icing or indulging in other muscle recovery techniques (massage, ice/Epsom bath), or that I'm simply on my feet too long without requisite recovery time (the simplest solution for this is GOOD sleep, so your body can recover).
 
What do you do when you hit a wall? I went for what should have been a short (30 min) run today, but 5 minutes, I just couldn't do it. My legs felt like rocks, it was as if there were no reserves to draw from. I did make myself walk the full 30 min, jogging a minute here and there.

How do you diagnose the cause? I know I didn't sleep well, but nothing else off. I have my first 10k this weekend, and I'm worried this will happen again. I'm sure it's psychological as much as physical, but I'm not sure what it is.


When I have a bad run, I like to look at everything that's going on around me. For example: your poor sleep. Maybe I didn't eat well the night before or before running? Am I sick? Hung over? Did I drink enough water? Stressed about something? As a woman, I feel like where I am in my cycle plays a big part in my energy level. Usually right before my period, I'm bone tired. Overtraining is always a big concern. I can tell I've overtrained when my resting heart rate is high, it's extremely difficult to run, I have poor appetite, and most importantly, I can't sleep. I had to take 2 weeks off running to return to normal.

When I've hit walls during races, it's always 2 things. I ran too fast and couldn't sustain my pace and perhaps didn't fuel correctly. My true wall around mile 10 was tough because I wasn't mentally prepared for it and got really down that my pace had jumped up a whole minute and couldn't will my legs to move any faster.

But hitting a wall 5 min into a run is probably one of the earlier things I listed. Also, perhaps you increased mileage too rapidly?
 
What do you do when you hit a wall? I went for what should have been a short (30 min) run today, but 5 minutes, I just couldn't do it. My legs felt like rocks, it was as if there were no reserves to draw from. I did make myself walk the full 30 min, jogging a minute here and there.

But hitting a wall 5 min into a run is probably one of the earlier things I listed. Also, perhaps you increased mileage too rapidly?

To ME - and, again, this is another thing that varies from person-to-person ... dead legs means I'm not putting in the work OUTSIDE training runs. I'm not mixing up workouts (i.e. riding my bike, swimming, etc.) to give my muscles a break from the same motion over and over again. I'm not mixing up terrain and elevation (mixing up track, treadmill, hills, etc. instead of running the same path and camber every day). I'm not rolling, stretching, icing or indulging in other muscle recovery techniques (massage, ice/Epsom bath), or that I'm simply on my feet too long without requisite recovery time (the simplest solution for this is GOOD sleep, so your body can recover).

@dis_or_dat is right when she says the real wall is not going to appear five minutes into a run. Unless you haven't eaten or slept for a full day or two, it's nearly impossible to run out of energy so quickly. Dead legs are not the wall. Dead legs are legs which have been overworked and not given enough time and opportunity for recovery. As @Keels explained very well, varying your route, pace, and run length can all help to keep your legs from being worn down.
 
To add, about the dead legs, this is where training on back to back days can really help a runner. You teach yourself to run on really tired legs. In preparation for the Dopey, I have run 103 of the last 105 days as I built my base. I am not trying to complete some sort of running streak goal - I am just acclimating my legs to that type of work, and training my mind. I would say about 5 or 6 of the 100+ runs during this span have been on dead legs, but I finished them all. As Keels said earlier, some of them took every trick that I had in my bag to get me home, but I simply would not allow myself to stop just because I was tired. Getting through these runs makes us better runners.

That said, after each of these tough runs I make it a point to slow down on my next run or two and to sleep more at night for the next few nights. I have never had 2 of these runs in a row.
 

To add, about the dead legs, this is where training on back to back days can really help a runner. You teach yourself to run on really tired legs. In preparation for the Dopey, I have run 103 of the last 105 days as I built my base. I am not trying to complete some sort of running streak goal - I am just acclimating my legs to that type of work, and training my mind. I would say about 5 or 6 of the 100+ runs during this span have been on dead legs, but I finished them all. As Keels said earlier, some of them took every trick that I had in my bag to get me home, but I simply would not allow myself to stop just because I was tired. Getting through these runs makes us better runners.

That said, after each of these tough runs I make it a point to slow down on my next run or two and to sleep more at night for the next few nights. I have never had 2 of these runs in a row.

Learning to run on tired legs is a great skill to teach yourself...it doesn't come without hard work but the results are worth it. Like you said, it trains your mind as much as your body. Your body is usually capable of far more than you think it is. For example, how many times in a race have you felt completely done, only to put in a kick once you see the finish line? That's mental. Your body was capable, but your mind had shut it down. Training on tired legs (while letting them adequately recover prior to race day, or race DAYS when it comes to runDisney!) can lead to great results, especially over the back half of the race when you see others struggling. You've already been there and know you can overcome that struggling feeling!

Congrats on the IronMan @CheapRunnerMike! I have a friend who has done 3 now and he is one of the reasons I started running! You are inspiring more people than you can imagine!

Aw, thanks @girliea :blush:
 
On a random subject. Those of you who take shot blocks. How often do you consume them and what is/are your favorite flavor/s?

Does anybody have advice on getting rid of side-cramps while running? I have never experienced this before (although only started running in May) but the last few times I have been out for a run I have noticed my side cramping up. Today it was so bad I had to stop and walk a few minutes - then when I started running again it came back - ugh! A quick google search indicates that this is likely due to fluids intake before a run (which I didn't do) or breathing issues. I don't think I have changed my breathing patterns recently, although my pace has increased a bit so perhaps I am breathing differently as a result? I tried to focus on breathing after my walk break during today's run but it didn't seem to help. Any suggestions from the experienced runners here? It is making me a bit nervous for my next 10k in a couple of weeks!
Everyone covered the reasons it sometimes occurs. I usually don't get them but I was told when they happen to put your arms over your head to open up your airways.

What do you do when you hit a wall? I went for what should have been a short (30 min) run today, but 5 minutes, I just couldn't do it. My legs felt like rocks, it was as if there were no reserves to draw from. I did make myself walk the full 30 min, jogging a minute here and there.

How do you diagnose the cause? I know I didn't sleep well, but nothing else off. I have my first 10k this weekend, and I'm worried this will happen again. I'm sure it's psychological as much as physical, but I'm not sure what it is.
As many other have mentioned it's personal. When I have a day like that where there's no specific reason I can diagnose (no tired legs from back to backs) I usually get 1/2 mile - 1 mile in and head home. Usually when I go out the next day it's better.

It obviously differs from person-to-person and is definitely situational.

I've been hurt and really struggled this weekend at the Disneyland Half. No joking, I feel like I hit about nine walls during that damn race. I pulled out all my "mental" tricks - I changed up my playlist, I turned off the pace/interval alerts on my watch so I wouldn't feel like I was falling behind and instead would let myself naturally fall into a groove and get something going, I ate more Margarita ShotBlocs than I normally eat (again, imagining I was having a cocktail and not running), I BioFreezed, I stopped to stretch, I stopped to pet two different dogs (yes, their owners probably thought I was crazy), I went through all my mantras, I texted my friends for helpful words and when all that failed ... well, then I cried. But at least I finished, but man - it was not pretty.

I feel like "walls" are most often mental and I've found that when I hit them during training, I ask myself "Are you really hurt or are you just lazy?" and then I try to find some way to change up the run and make it fun - do dance steps for a bit instead of run or stop at a track and run laps, or run up and down a dam crossing - anything to change up my mindset. That usually works. Also, if I'm not in to a run and go in with the mindset that it's going to suck, well, it's going to suck. But lace up and get out there - garbage run or not. Do the miles. There's always another run after it. Nobody ever has a perfect training cycle.

Glad you pushed through it. I like your methods of distraction. Especially the margarita method and the dog petting. Also, "Are you really hurt or are you just lazy?" is such an intense question. It would end in me thinking to myself "If I admit I'm lazy can I stop?" which is obviously the wrong answer. I may have to try that.
 
What do you do when you hit a wall? I went for what should have been a short (30 min) run today, but 5 minutes, I just couldn't do it. My legs felt like rocks, it was as if there were no reserves to draw from. I did make myself walk the full 30 min, jogging a minute here and there.

How do you diagnose the cause? I know I didn't sleep well, but nothing else off. I have my first 10k this weekend, and I'm worried this will happen again. I'm sure it's psychological as much as physical, but I'm not sure what it is.

There have been a lot of great replies and information given, so far. One additional thing I'd like to add, though, is that bad runs and bad running days happen. There are some days where, for some reason things don't click, the legs feel dead and it's a chore to get out there. Is this a one time thing for you (or very infrequent)? If so, I'd just chalk it up to a bad day and move on. Obsessing and overthinking it is liable to cause more problems than it will solve. If this is something that is happening routinely or every time you go out after a certain amount of training (ie, there's a pattern to it) then it needs to be analyzed for root cause and corrective actions.
 
On a random subject. Those of you who take shot blocks. How often do you consume them and what is/are your favorite flavor/s?

I have used Honey Stinger chews and would take one every 20 minutes right from the start. I like every flavour I have tried so far, with my favourites being Limeade & Pink Lemonade.
 
On a random subject. Those of you who take shot blocks. How often do you consume them and what is/are your favorite flavor/s?

I also used Honey Stinger chews in the past. I'd take a pack every 45 minutes or so (or 1/2 a pack every 20-25) and my favorite flavors were Cherry Cola and Limeade. I switched to gels because I couldn't stand how sticky my fingers got eating the chews. I know it's OCD, but the last thing I need in a race is something aggravating to obsess over.
 
QOTD: So its that time of year, when we are starting our "official" training for our big race of the season. Some of yall may already be in full training mode for a fall race and could provide even better answers. For those of us with a late December / early January race we are somewhere around 18-20 weeks to go. Which training plan are you going to follow for this training cycle? How do you feel about your base miles leading up to the training program?

ATTQOTD: For a training plan, I am using a combination of Pfitz 18/55 and 18/70 plans. So my planned peak week will end with a total of 66 miles. However, with the flood event and a bad case of don't wants I find myself unprepared as the first week of training starts next week. I may have to reduce some miles for the first few weeks to get back to where I need to be and then pick up from there. I hope I don't need to do that, but based on last nights 7 miler went, I am a little concerned.
 
ATTQOTD: We have a local race that we always train for, so we've been training already this summer. We use a Galloway plan with the race set in early November. Galloway as many of you know doesn't do particularly high overall mileage but rather focuses on the long run. The peak week for us is still about a month away but even then maxes out at just around 35 miles for the week. We will continue training on through for Goofy with a few more long runs and some long back to back runs as well.
 
QOTD: So its that time of year, when we are starting our "official" training for our big race of the season. Some of yall may already be in full training mode for a fall race and could provide even better answers. For those of us with a late December / early January race we are somewhere around 18-20 weeks to go. Which training plan are you going to follow for this training cycle? How do you feel about your base miles leading up to the training program?

I will be using Hansons Advanced for my Dopey training. I am feeling good about where my base is and think I should be able to jump in with no issues. The only slight change I'm making is there was a half marathon that came up that piqued my interest. I was scheduled for 14 miles that day, but may just do the 13.1. Either way the half will be at long run pace.
 
Thanks all (I'm not great at multi-quotes). It felt like I did when I first started running--when the 30 second jog would kill me. I've been doing great lately, so it's not a common thing. I'll chalk this one up to too little sleep, which affected both my mind and body, or just a bad day, and try again.

I'm sure there's also an element of the psychological, that I've never run a 10k before, and I'm crazy to think I can do it. I'm at that point in training (for GSC) that 75% of the time I'm like "Oh, I think I can actually do this!" but the other 25% is still "You've lost your mind". That 75% keeps getting higher, but the nagging doubts remain. I also got a new Garmin, which does a MUCH better job of accurately tracking my runs, and it's clear my pace isn't quite a great as I'd hoped. But accurate data are good, and I'll just keeping plugging along.

Thanks for the therapy session!
 
QOTD: So its that time of year, when we are starting our "official" training for our big race of the season. Some of yall may already be in full training mode for a fall race and could provide even better answers. For those of us with a late December / early January race we are somewhere around 18-20 weeks to go. Which training plan are you going to follow for this training cycle? How do you feel about your base miles leading up to the training program?
Well I am really following a modified Galloway. Instead of Tuesday Thursday, I run Monday Wednesday Friday and longer run on Saturday. That just works best with my schedule right now. I also probably won't go as high as Galloway suggests. After reading Higdons marathon book I'll likely top out around that 20ish mile mark. I feel good so far. Hopefully everything continues to go well.
 
On a random subject. Those of you who take shot blocks. How often do you consume them and what is/are your favorite flavor/s?

I use them on runs over 6 miles. I like the Clif shot bloks Margarita flavor, as it mirrors my favorite cocktail:). That said, I had trouble finding them for a while and found I also like sport beans and honey stinger chews. But the extra salt in the margarita block is something I need, so it's my go to. I start taking them at 20 minutes, and continue every 20.

There have been a lot of great replies and information given, so far. One additional thing I'd like to add, though, is that bad runs and bad running days happen. There are some days where, for some reason things don't click, the legs feel dead and it's a chore to get out there. Is this a one time thing for you (or very infrequent)? If so, I'd just chalk it up to a bad day and move on. Obsessing and overthinking it is liable to cause more problems than it will solve. If this is something that is happening routinely or every time you go out after a certain amount of training (ie, there's a pattern to it) then it needs to be analyzed for root cause and corrective actions.

I agree with this! Bad runs happen, and learning they do and the next one will be better is part of the process in my opinion.

QOTD: So its that time of year, when we are starting our "official" training for our big race of the season. Some of yall may already be in full training mode for a fall race and could provide even better answers. For those of us with a late December / early January race we are somewhere around 18-20 weeks to go. Which training plan are you going to follow for this training cycle? How do you feel about your base miles leading up to the training program?

ATTQOTD: For a training plan, I am using a combination of Pfitz 18/55 and 18/70 plans. So my planned peak week will end with a total of 66 miles. However, with the flood event and a bad case of don't wants I find myself unprepared as the first week of training starts next week. I may have to reduce some miles for the first few weeks to get back to where I need to be and then pick up from there. I hope I don't need to do that, but based on last nights 7 miler went, I am a little concerned.

I had to defer my fall race, so fall for me will be a long base building period, leading to marathon training starting in January. My hope is to get up to 5 runs a week and 20 miles a week by the end of December. I'm at every other day right now.
 
QOTD: So its that time of year, when we are starting our "official" training for our big race of the season. Some of yall may already be in full training mode for a fall race and could provide even better answers. For those of us with a late December / early January race we are somewhere around 18-20 weeks to go. Which training plan are you going to follow for this training cycle? How do you feel about your base miles leading up to the training program?

To be honest I have been on a plan since February, with every single workout being scheduled. Since wrapping up my Ironman I have really enjoyed being 'off-plan'. I have one last triathlon this weekend and a 50K trail race in October, then it is Dopey. I'll come up with a loose plan to follow but mostly just going to make sure I maintain a good base. Really looking forward to just being able to run again because I want to run, and not because I have a run scheduled. I'll be running Dopey with my wife, at least the 5/10 and 26.2...I am debating whether or not to let it rip for the half and see how that goes. I haven't run an open half marathon in almost a year and a half, curious to see how it would go.
 
On a random subject. Those of you who take shot blocks. How often do you consume them and what is/are your favorite flavor/s?

When I am using bloks, I use the Mountain Berry ones from Clif. I take one every 20 minutes on the run or whenever my bike computer alerts me to another five miles when riding. I tend to mix up what fuel I use, though, between bloks, gels, and sport beans. I don't like to eat the same thing all the time during a race. Well, except for salted potatoes. I can eat those all day long.

QOTD: So its that time of year, when we are starting our "official" training for our big race of the season. Some of yall may already be in full training mode for a fall race and could provide even better answers. For those of us with a late December / early January race we are somewhere around 18-20 weeks to go. Which training plan are you going to follow for this training cycle? How do you feel about your base miles leading up to the training program?

I've been in training for my race since January and all of my workouts are scheduled for me by my coach. I think it's the "how to survive indoor and parking lot training for an Ironman" plan. She and I will put together my plan for Dopey once the IM is complete and my extended rest period is over. It'll be a careful balance of doing the least amount of training it will take to get me through the full since my usual rest period after a major race like this is 1-2 months.
 
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QOTD: So its that time of year, when we are starting our "official" training for our big race of the season. Some of yall may already be in full training mode for a fall race and could provide even better answers. For those of us with a late December / early January race we are somewhere around 18-20 weeks to go. Which training plan are you going to follow for this training cycle? How do you feel about your base miles leading up to the training program?
I have a custom training plan which I developed myself, but with feedback from too many sources to list. I will run 7 days/week, taking off a day here or there if I need to, until my taper for Dopey begins.

As for my base - it has been at 45 miles/week for 9 weeks now, so I feel great heading into my official training cycle. My legs feel as strong as they ever have. My speed isn't quite where I would like it to be, but since I have no time goals for the Dopey races, that is not a problem. I'd rather arrive on race day strong and healthy than risk injury at this point. I am a middle of the pack runner, and I am happy to be so.
 
What do you do when you hit a wall? I went for what should have been a short (30 min) run today, but 5 minutes, I just couldn't do it. My legs felt like rocks, it was as if there were no reserves to draw from. I did make myself walk the full 30 min, jogging a minute here and there.

How do you diagnose the cause? I know I didn't sleep well, but nothing else off. I have my first 10k this weekend, and I'm worried this will happen again. I'm sure it's psychological as much as physical, but I'm not sure what it is.

So there are several types of walls that runners commonly refer to:

1) Wall because of glycogen depletion or poor fueling. This occurs when you've used all of your energy storage. Our bodies are capable of storing a very large reserve so it's almost impossible (is impossible) for this to occur after 5 minutes, unless you just haven't eaten for days. If someone just eats normally, they likely won't meet this wall until at least mile 15-17 of a race and in general most don't meet this wall. If you're able to pick the pace up again at all then again this is likely not the problem. Thus, not the likely cause.
2) Wall because of lactate threshold. Lactate is a good marker for fatigue. Too much lactate means too much fatigue and thus it forces you to slow down. The lactate threshold is the point at which you accumulate fatigue faster than you can get rid of it. In general, unless you were running way beyond mile pace it is very difficult to induce the lactate threshold in 5 minutes time. This is the most common wall people hit. It isn't because of a lack of fueling. It has to do with training and appropriate race day pacing. Thus, not the likely cause.
3) The mental wall. SOOO many things can contribute to the mental wall that others have pointed out.

My best two guesses as to why your wall occurred.

1) You've recently dramatically increased/reduced your training load either through mileage or pace. Commonly when you're this close to a race people's training plans taper. The taper induces a period of time where you are no longer making physical gains that will assist you in performing better. Rather this period of time is focusing on allowing the body to recover from all of the training you just completed. It assists in allowing you to reach race day fresh. I have found on countless occasions that my "easy" days seem suddenly more difficult during the taper. Did I lose all of my fitness during this brief taper period? Should I push harder to ensure I can run the distance or the pace I desire? Nope. Just continue about the taper as designed. During this period of time your body is focused on recovery and isn't allocating all the necessary resources to make running "easy" still easy. Don't worry as it will be there on race day.

2) Fear/Negativity. Your first 10K is coming up. You might fear the distance, or fear the pace, or fear something about the race. In general it makes you worried/stressed out. This can alter your perception of effort. So what you would have considered an easy training run becomes really difficult. It's really important to learn how to push back on this fear/negativity because it can make a dramatic difference come race day. In all likelihood the race isn't going to go perfectly. And having tools in the toolbox of your mind on how you can best deal with these mental gymnastics will allow you to push through and lower that perception of effort.

So what if the "dead legs" happen again in training. Well, if it's close (dependent on the distance of the race) to race day, then I'd suggest to do what you did. Just take it easier, don't worry about it, and move on. Everyone has these types of runs. If it's far away from race day, endure. Try to push the wall away and learn to overcome. Teach your self positive thought, or motivational tactics to learn how to overcome that feeling. Such that when it occurs on race day you've learned you are stronger physically then you thought. Just be cognizant that you might need some extra rest/recovery after pushing through a "dead leg" run because of the extra exertion physically you might have done.

Now if these types of "dead leg" runs start to happen consecutively on back to back training runs, then you need to reevaluate your training plan. This could be a sign that you're doing too much (either in distance, duration, or pace).

This is an excellent question. I've had some days like that, and in my case came up with fatigue as the issue... Meaning muscle fatigue that accumulated over a number of runs. I had a run just like that today. I walked for a mile until it became bearable and then picked back up for the last mile of my workout. I think the bigger question is, "how does this feeling of dead, heavy legs factor into perception of effort?" I'd like to hear some input from the more experienced runners.

Depends. Perception of effort can be manipulated by a multitude of different factors. I would believe intuitively that if you have a feeling of "dead, heavy legs" then it's going to make the run seem harder (higher perception of effort). Commonly, I run Friday night and Saturday morning. Both are "easy" runs. Yet, the Saturday run "feels" harder because I've typically had less rest/recovery between these runs then I typically do. The whole point of cumulative fatigue training is to teach your body physically and mentally that it's capable of much more than you believe.

Your "dead leg" run you had yesterday is almost assuredly because you have a half marathon this weekend. You're dramatically reducing your training load (pace/duration) and allowing the body to recover. Thus, your body is focused on that and not on the super easy run. Thus, you perceive the run to be harder than it is because physically your body isn't giving you all the tools to do it easily. It's a trap. Some people believe they should push through this run. Or the next day they should pick up the pace just to ensure they can run the pace they want for their upcoming race. Don't do that. Just take it easy and save it for race day. You're too close to race day that any physical gains likely won't occur prior to race day and all you will do is induce a higher level of fatigue than necessary going into the race.

QOTD: So its that time of year, when we are starting our "official" training for our big race of the season. Some of yall may already be in full training mode for a fall race and could provide even better answers. For those of us with a late December / early January race we are somewhere around 18-20 weeks to go. Which training plan are you going to follow for this training cycle? How do you feel about your base miles leading up to the training program?

I'm almost to the end of my training (:woohoo:)! I've been at or above 60 miles (or 9 hrs of running) for the last 14 weeks. This is my peak week at 71 miles and 10 hrs 4 min spent running. My fall marathon is on October 2nd and I've been training since January for it. This is my "A" race and everything all year has been building towards it. Every day, every meal, everything with the sole focus of nailing race day to get one step closer to the ultimate goal of a sub-3 hr marathon (and BQ). Although admittedly, I'm completely comfortable no matter the race day results because one day doesn't make or break all of the training I've been doing (if it's 100 degrees nothing I can do about it except do my best on that day). I built my own training plan using a combination of philosophies from different training plans, experienced runners, and scientific papers. I was nervous when I made it because I wasn't quite sure I'd be able to handle it, but since I'm almost done with it I now feel even more strongly that it works and works well. It was 6 days a week and almost 90 minutes of running every day, with Thursdays peaking at 2 hours and Sundays peaking at 2.5 hours. At this point, my marathon PR is a 3:28 (run in May 2016). Based on a few workouts I've put in recently I could (which doesn't mean I will or will try to) run a 3:09. Which means I've seen a ~10% improvement in fitness in only 5 months (or ~5% if you conclude like I did that I could have run a 3:18 in May). If it works out that way, then I'd say my plan works and works well. After the October marathon will be Dopey training. Again I'll custom build it, but it's too early to do so until I see how the October race goes.
 












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