The Rumors Are True! Goodbye River Country and TCD Barn!

[Lil' Lisa]

Everyone gather 'round the campfire, join hands, and raise your voices....

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=SeJ86poZq60&feature=related

I knew that was what it was before I even clicked the link!

 

[Tri-circle-D]

To those of you wishing to start an argument, as much as I would like to put you in your respective places, I will refrain, as I would rather stay on topic for the sake of those who are genuinely interested in this rumored new construction project.


So, I will respond to the posts that are on topic . . .

TCD,

When you say "Settlement area" do you mean the parking area outside of TE, the parking "around the circle" in front of the Trading Post, or the parking area near the marina? Or all of the above? What do you think?

What I think is that Fort management may stop all golf carts from driving in to all of the above. If the pavilion is, in fact, going somewhere to the East of the Settlement Trading Post, and if the guests of the new resort are going to share the FW marina, and if they are increasing the nature of horse operations in the area across from Pioneer Hall, then I think there will be too much pedestrian traffic, and the golf carts will be required to park outside this area.

I'm curious about this. Is the Wagon/Carriage loading operation large enough to need a separate building? Wouldn't it make more sense to house that equipment up with the horses once that expanded barn is relocated down by the Outpost? They could also start loading/unloading the wagons there to make the rides more accessible to guests from other resorts.

That area is so central and visible in the resort. There's so much foot and cart traffic down there. I can't imagine just using it for a loading area and storage. If they do just build a storage building, hopefully it is small and doesn't require much clearing.

You make a good point. I am reporting what the CM told me, but I think you are right- I don't know why they would need much more space than they currently have in this area. But, there are clearly survey markers around here, so something is up.

I too wonder what a CGW is but...I am more concerned about the concrete path that the golf carts use to get the the Settlement. I know it probably sounds silly, but that little path (which I loved even more when it was dirt/mulchy stuff) with what I call FW music playing magically is my most favorite place. At night it has always seemed magical to me. My dad always said WDW was a magical place and that little section was one of things he pointed out to me when I was young and something that I shared with my boys.

I don't mind sharing with others (my momma taught me to share ) but I would be very sad to lose something that sums up FW for me.

Maybe I am reading the map wrong though....

No, you aren't reading the map wrong. That is the path we are talking about. And, your dad was right, this little path is magical. It is also one of my favorite places on WDW property. I love the thick canopy of trees and the Fort-themed music, and hearing the announcements for the HDDR.

I'm hoping that if the rumors are true about doing away with marina parking then perhaps they will be incorporating a new, larger lot adjacent to the new MBYBBQ... the walk from the Settlement Depot is way too long IMO. About 1000' IIRC.

You are quite right. If the pavilion is in fact being relocated to the reported area, guests will have a very long walk from the Settlement Bus Stop. I expect the bus stop location to be changed- which is why I think that the new resort will share buses with the Fort.

I'm not going to get in on the DVC vs. Campers debate, but I thought I'd throw out there that this stake is different than normal construction stakes.


This looks like its going to be used as a temporary benchmark, you can see it has a ground elevation written on it (GRD EL 98.4) and a reference number, but I wonder about the B-304?? That makes me think it has something to do with soil borings, but not sure why they would need them right there based on what TCD has found out. The other thing that doesn't make sense is why they would put the temporary benchmark in the trees like that, unless it was already there (maybe an old one close to the ground). TCD did this stake have a little stake at the bottom of it with a nail in the top? If so it would defintly be a temporary benchmark for when construction starts.

Sorry just thought I would point out some things that I was curious about.

Hey- thanks for the info! I don't know if there was a smaller stake down at the base of this one. But, I will check on this on my next visit, and report back.

Is there any significance to the color of all the ribbons? I haven't seen red, white and blue ribbons hanging in trees like these were. What is that all about?

I just wanted to mention that this past weekeind I asked one of the DVC folks at a booth in HS about all these rumors. He said they are never told ahead of time about what is being done. He said when they want to know what's going on, they check the DIS.

By the way thanks TCD for an excellent job getting the facts and sharing it all with us. In fact I was greatly relieved to see all your photos and info on your TR too. I had taken many of the same pics, but have little time to post. Glad you're on the job!

Tony- No problem. I am looking forward to seeing all of your photos when you get around to posting them.

TCD

 

[Magicbus]

To those of you wishing to start an argument,

Ya, take it to that other thread.
I'm too ignorant to post on this thread and as I'm a lover and not a fighter, I'm staying clear of that other thread.

 

[Us3]

Thanks for sharing this info. Great reporting as always!

 

[Shan-man]

If I were designing this project, which of course I'm not, but if I were, I would retain the path through Pioneer Woods for mixed use (cart/bike/ped) and carts would be redirected toward the rear of the Settlement Trading Post and along the (newly paved) Nature Trail toward the new,expanded cart parking alongside the new MBYBBQ Pavillion. The expanded carriage operations would be accessed from the current (ped only) path that leads from the depot to Pioneer Hall. There would be several short-term cart parking spaces near the loading dock for the TP as well. That would keep the carts well-isolated from the marina and settlement foot traffic (and all those snooty DV... errr, nevermind) and still give campers reasonable access to these facilities via their $55/day carts. The downside? A whole lot more trees get cut down, and I can't park my cart within 100' of the bev dispenser to refill my 2007 Holiday Season refillable mug! More like 500', for free soda? Maybe the real project managers have better ideas!

 

[Shan-man]

Oh, one more thing, as much as I hate to disagree with TCD (one of the least disagreeable folks on this board), I can't believe that the new resort's guests will be expected to hike to the Fort's marina. It's just too far from where I expect the accommodations will be located. Maybe, if it is a small resort and sits on the property of the pavilion and RC. But I expect it will be larger and will sit mostly to the west of the barn and pavilion and on the property of RC and the woods to the south, extending to the waterfront to the west. I would be surprised if there is not a new marina built, be it for the sole use of this resort, or to be shared by FW and be located maybe around the little dock at Clementine's. I suspect a new, additional dock along the west shore of the RC peninsula.

Can you tell I love speculation?!

 

[BradyBz12]

...still give campers reasonable access to these facilities via their $55/day carts.

Wow... you have been away a while. It's more like $65/day now

If the new DVC resort IS tied to the Fort in any way, I wonder if they'll also have access to golf cart rentals?? I could definitely see that being a perk of ownership, and it might resolve the "too far from the marina" issue too.

 

[medic9016]

I just wanted to mention that this past weekeind I asked one of the DVC folks at a booth in HS about all these rumors. He said they are never told ahead of time about what is being done. He said when they want to know what's going on, they check the DIS.

By the way thanks TCD for an excellent job getting the facts and sharing it all with us. In fact I was greatly relieved to see all your photos and info on your TR too. I had taken many of the same pics, but have little time to post. Glad you're on the job!

A good source for info would be one of the Reedy Creek fire inspectors. If anyboby knows one. They would have to do a plans review for construction, roads and parking. There are certians aspect that have to be considered for emergency responses.

 

[retired and happy]

With our three wheelchairs and my DW's bad back, we don't need to be parked any further from the BBQ or the Marina (or the trading post for that matter). She will often drive the CG to either of these with one wheelchair on the back, and with me pushing the other two from our campsite to the destination. Waiting for more concrete info, but not happy so far.

 

[AuburnJen92]

A good source for info would be one of the Reedy Creek fire inspectors. If anyboby knows one. They would have to do a plans review for construction, roads and parking. There are certians aspect that have to be considered for emergency responses.

Hey Deb, go find us a fire inspector....

 

[des1954]

A good source for info would be one of the Reedy Creek fire inspectors. If anyboby knows one. They would have to do a plans review for construction, roads and parking. There are certians aspect that have to be considered for emergency responses.

The little known fact about Reedy Creek Improvement District is that it was created by, owned by, and run by Disney.

Hey Deb, go find us a fire inspector....

If I were younger & cuter, I'd just wander into one of the stations and introduce myself.

 

[Tri-circle-D]

Thanks for sharing this info. Great reporting as always!

What?

Sonya?

Where the heck have you been?

I hope the family is doing well.

It is great to see you post again!

If I were designing this project, which of course I'm not, but if I were, I would retain the path through Pioneer Woods for mixed use (cart/bike/ped) and carts would be redirected toward the rear of the Settlement Trading Post and along the (newly paved) Nature Trail toward the new,expanded cart parking alongside the new MBYBBQ Pavillion. The expanded carriage operations would be accessed from the current (ped only) path that leads from the depot to Pioneer Hall. There would be several short-term cart parking spaces near the loading dock for the TP as well. That would keep the carts well-isolated from the marina and settlement foot traffic (and all those snooty DV... errr, nevermind) and still give campers reasonable access to these facilities via their $55/day carts. The downside? A whole lot more trees get cut down, and I can't park my cart within 100' of the bev dispenser to refill my 2007 Holiday Season refillable mug! More like 500', for free soda? Maybe the real project managers have better ideas!

I wish Disney would hire you. What you described makes perfect sense. And, if they wanted to, they could put a drink machine in the Settlement Trading Post, and then we would be all set.

Oh, one more thing, as much as I hate to disagree with TCD (one of the least disagreeable folks on this board), I can't believe that the new resort's guests will be expected to hike to the Fort's marina. It's just too far from where I expect the accommodations will be located. Maybe, if it is a small resort and sits on the property of the pavilion and RC. But I expect it will be larger and will sit mostly to the west of the barn and pavilion and on the property of RC and the woods to the south, extending to the waterfront to the west. I would be surprised if there is not a new marina built, be it for the sole use of this resort, or to be shared by FW and be located maybe around the little dock at Clementine's. I suspect a new, additional dock along the west shore of the RC peninsula.

Can you tell I love speculation?!

Shan-

It's OK with me to disagree. Nothing is better than a good discussion. Especially one premised on speculation. We can speculate all day long, and nobody can be offended. Because we're just speculating.

And, before I go on, let me say again that it is good to see you posting here again.

While I agree it would be nice for this new development to have separate transportation facilities, the problem with your logic is that you are using logic. Since when has WDW management used logic? I, on the other hand, base my speculation on what I have seen in the other DVC resorts that have been appended to an existing resort. It seems to be the game-plan to let the DVC resort mooch off of the host resort's facilities and amenities thereby save Disney from expending money on providing the DVC resort with its own amenities.

Look at BLT- they got a nice pool and recreation area, but they have to go over to the main Contemporary property for transportation and food service.

Look at the Villas at AKL- They also got a nice pool and recreation area, and one restaurant, but guests have to find their way over to the main building for a quick serve restaurant. They did provide the DVC people with their own bus stop over here, but I think that was dictated by how far apart they spaced the buildings so they could give the DVC people their own savanna area. They still share the buses with AKL.

Look at the Villas at WL- They got a small pool, but share everything else with the main property.

Look at the Beach Club Villas- They got a small pool, and a quick serve restaurant, but transportation and everything else is shared.

So, based on this, I believe the DVC geniuses at WDW plan on using all of the Settlement amenities (marina, Trading Post, Pioneer Hall, playground, Clementine's Beach) as amenities for the new DVC. I speculate that means they will build this resort close to Clementine's Beach- like where the old River Country entrance is, and they will expect the DVC guests to share with the Fort. I would expect that they will add a thing or two (perhaps a quick serve restaurant in the area of Pioneer Woods?), and they will try to capitalize on all of the foot traffic that will be milling around the Settlement area. Think about all of the potential customers who will walk by this area either to visit the DVC resort, the Fort, or Pioneer Hall. I imagine that the money grubbers are salivating at this thought.

To make potential DVC buyers happy, I would expect them to build a nice pool and recreation area in the DVC resort, and make that for the DVC guests exclusive use. That is how it was done at BLT. And, that is what they will probably do here. While the AKL DVC pool is open to AKL guests, I just can't see them opening the new pool to the entire campground.

This concept does raise some interesting issues. Although we all love the Fort, it is not a deluxe resort. I really wonder about how they are going to market these DVC units. Who is their target customer? What will distinguish this resort from the Villas at WL? It will be interesting to see what they come up with and how they market it.

Wow... you have been away a while. It's more like $65/day now

If the new DVC resort IS tied to the Fort in any way, I wonder if they'll also have access to golf cart rentals?? I could definitely see that being a perk of ownership, and it might resolve the "too far from the marina" issue too.

Sure, why not? They could move the Bike Barn down here somewhere and rent bikes, surreys and golf carts. I know they could make a killing renting golf carts by the hour during the holidays.

TCD

 

[WDW1979]

Personally with the abuses from golf carting around the Fort in the past few years, I wouldn't seeing less of them. We love biking and golf carts are a true danger to all. If we don't bike we take Disney transp. You're camping and you're on vacation...what's the rush! Enjoy your surroundings more, ride a bike or walk more.

When I have driven rental carts at FtW, I have been surprised at how dangerous some places can be, for example coming off the bridge from the campfire program toward the Meadow Trading Post there is a bit of a blind spot where I can't see if there are pedestrians coming around the corner from the Trading Post. In places like that I always slow down considerably. I imagine that there must be some people on carts who don't slow up so much in places like that, so if I were walking with my kids in that area I would make sure they stay behind me as I peek around to see if a cart is coming. Definitely something to keep an eye on with the little ones about! So while I am pro-golf cart, I share your concerns about safety and how important it is for people like me on carts to watch out for and to respect others on foot or on bikes.

 

[stacktester]

When I have driven rental carts at FtW, I have been surprised at how dangerous some places can be, for example coming off the bridge from the camfire program toward the Meadow Trading Post there is a bit of a blind spot where I can't see if there are pedestrians coming around the corner from the Trading Post. In places like that I always slow down considerably. I imagine that there must be some people on carts who don't slow up so much in places like that, so if I were walking with my kids in that area I would make sure they stay behind me as I peek around to see if a cart is coming. Definitely something to keep an eye on with the little ones about! So while I am pro-golf cart, I share your concerns about safety and how important it is for people like me on carts to watch out for and to give right-of-way to others on foot or on bikes.

Must've been a while since you've been to the fort. There has been no golf carts allowed in that area for, oh say, a couple years now. It was one of the better things the fort management thought of. It's only open to pedestrian and bike traffic now.

 

[DaveInTN]

Should we be revisiting our speculation/dreams from a year ago about super-Premium, DVC campsites in the old RC space? Do we know for sure this project will entail typical DVC accomodations/villas? As others have pointed out, there may be limited appeal to many DVC buyers to buy into a "typical" DVC resort adjacent to the Fort. Plus, by offering such a property, they may be siphoning buyers from other properties. But, one thing Disney is good at is expanding the customer base. There are LOTS of Fort customers with the means to buy into DVC...but they don't because they aren't interested in staying anywhere but the Fort. I know you can use points to stay at a campsite, but I would think there may be a fair number of people that would prefer to buy in with the Fort as their home. And by setting the DVC sites apart, making them a step above Premium, and along the lake, I think they could charge DVC entrance fees and potentially sell them well.

I know this is fairly unlikely, but am I completely off base here?

Shan, I remember your map from the old thread. Is is worth reposting that?

 

[HockeyKat]

I, on the other hand, base my speculation on what I have seen in the other DVC resorts that have been appended to an existing resort. It seems to be the game-plan to let the DVC resort mooch off of the host resort's facilities and amenities thereby save Disney from expending money on providing the DVC resort with its own amenities.
...

This concept does raise some interesting issues. Although we all love the Fort, it is not a deluxe resort. I really wonder about how they are going to market these DVC units. Who is their target customer? What will distinguish this resort from the Villas at WL? It will be interesting to see what they come up with and how they market it.

...

TCD

I am a lurker here (DVC but have never stayed at FW), so please forgive me for butting in.

I just wanted to say that I couldn't agree more with the statements above. Not only does the last few DVCs line up with this way of thinking, I believe that DVC has come right out and said that Saratoga would be the last "new" resort that they build.

Every DVC except OKW, BWV, and Saratoga, pretty much piggyback on existing resources and transportation. Kidani Village is rather a joke in that regard... it's quite a long walk to the main building, and their pool area is small for the size of resort that they built there. BLT also has a rather small pool, but it's a quick walk to the Contemporary resources, at least as quick as BCV to SAB and the Y&B restaurants.


I am not sure how they will market it, and I am also curious. If they do it as an "add-on" to WL, and make the entrance and such on that "side of the fence", so to speak, then it would be a no-brainer, just extra VWL. They may even do that as an initiative that would allow current VWL owners to extend their contracts, like they did a few years back at OKW.

FW DVC would be interesting. Maybe something like the cabins? They did resurrect the Treehouse Villas, after all...

 

[Tri-circle-D]

When I have driven rental carts at FtW, I have been surprised at how dangerous some places can be, for example coming off the bridge from the camfire program toward the Meadow Trading Post there is a bit of a blind spot where I can't see if there are pedestrians coming around the corner from the Trading Post. In places like that I always slow down considerably. I imagine that there must be some people on carts who don't slow up so much in places like that, so if I were walking with my kids in that area I would make sure they stay behind me as I peek around to see if a cart is coming. Definitely something to keep an eye on with the little ones about! So while I am pro-golf cart, I share your concerns about safety and how important it is for people like me on carts to watch out for and to respect others on foot or on bikes.

You are right about the danger of that bridge behind the Meadow Trading Post.

You might be happy to know that about a year ago, Fort management blocked golf cart access to that bridge. It is now open to only walkers and bikers. They also blocked off access to the campfire area from the 1400 loop. So, now golf carts can only enter and exit the Meadow Recreation Area (pool, tennis courts and campfire area) via the driveway over by the 1500 loop, and golf carts cannot drive around behind the movie screen, as that is blocked off too.

Since they did that, it is not hard for me to imagine them prohibiting golf carts from other congested areas-like down around the marina.

TCD

 

[Tri-circle-D]

I am a lurker here (DVC but have never stayed at FW), so please forgive me for butting in.

I just wanted to say that I couldn't agree more with the statements above. Not only does the last few DVCs line up with this way of thinking, I believe that DVC has come right out and said that Saratoga would be the last "new" resort that they build.

Every DVC except OKW, BWV, and Saratoga, pretty much piggyback on existing resources and transportation. Kidani Village is rather a joke in that regard... it's quite a long walk to the main building, and their pool area is small for the size of resort that they built there. BLT also has a rather small pool, but it's a quick walk to the Contemporary resources, at least as quick as BCV to SAB and the Y&B restaurants.


I am not sure how they will market it, and I am also curious. If they do it as an "add-on" to WL, and make the entrance and such on that "side of the fence", so to speak, then it would be a no-brainer, just extra VWL. They may even do that as an initiative that would allow current VWL owners to extend their contracts, like they did a few years back at OKW.

FW DVC would be interesting. Maybe something like the cabins? They did resurrect the Treehouse Villas, after all...

No need to apologize for butting in.

The more the merrier.

Despite what you may have heard, we are a friendly bunch here.

I have to ask you something, though.

You have commented both in this post and in a previous one that the Kidani Village (AKL DVC) pool is small.

I don't undertand how you can say that.

I think the Kidani Village pool is amazing. It has nice slide, hot tub, zero entry, and a great water play area. It also has a bar, and a self serve place to refill your refillable mugs. If anyone wants to take a look, here's a link to some photos: Kidani Village Pool Pics

I don't know if you have ever been to FW, but the Kidani Village pool pones the FW pool.

And, the BLT and SSR pools are nice too.

These nice pools seem to be a major DVC selling point.

TCD

 

[Tri-circle-D]

Should we be revisiting our speculation/dreams from a year ago about super-Premium, DVC campsites in the old RC space? Do we know for sure this project will entail typical DVC accomodations/villas? As others have pointed out, there may be limited appeal to many DVC buyers to buy into a "typical" DVC resort adjacent to the Fort. Plus, by offering such a property, they may be siphoning buyers from other properties. But, one thing Disney is good at is expanding the customer base. There are LOTS of Fort customers with the means to buy into DVC...but they don't because they aren't interested in staying anywhere but the Fort. I know you can use points to stay at a campsite, but I would think there may be a fair number of people that would prefer to buy in with the Fort as their home. And by setting the DVC sites apart, making them a step above Premium, and along the lake, I think they could charge DVC entrance fees and potentially sell them well.

I know this is fairly unlikely, but am I completely off base here?

Shan, I remember your map from the old thread. Is is worth reposting that?

Dave-

I don't think you are off base at all.

This has crossed my mind as well.

If they were going to clone the Villas at WL, for example, then why not just build another wing over there? There is space to do it. And that is a premium resort.

So, what are they going to put in this corner of Fort Wilderness, and who is going to spend money to purchase a time share there? I don't think your suggestion that campers might be the target audience is off base at all. But, the only thing is that this concept is so far off base from what the other DVC's are like, that I can't see how it would work.

Time will tell.

TCD

 

[Shan-man]

Should we be revisiting our speculation/dreams from a year ago about super-Premium, DVC campsites in the old RC space?... Shan, I remember your map from the old thread. Is is worth reposting that?

Here was my little speculation of what a DVC campground might look like:

Of course, this didn't take into consideration the relocation of the barn, horse operations, and the MBYBBQ! Who'd have thought?! I may find some time for more "graphic speculation" over the weekend.