The "protesters"

[C.Ann]

Although it's a very sad thing, watching people die in Irag is not an uncommon occurence for children.. Worse yet, they may also on occasion see people being tortured and mutilated - thanks to Saddam Hussein and the "love" he has for the people of his country.. The comparison of children having to view something "staged" here in the U.S. (and taking into account that many of these children were probably of such a young age that they didn't even realize it was staged) and making a reference to what the children of Iraq are seeing is "worlds apart" (no pun intended)..

 

[acepepper]

Originally posted by C.Ann
Although it's a very sad thing, watching people die in Irag is not an uncommon occurence for children.. Worse yet, they may also on occasion see people being tortured and mutilated - thanks to Saddam Hussein and the "love" he has for the people of his country.. The comparison of children having to view something "staged" here in the U.S. (and taking into account that many of these children were probably of such a young age that they didn't even realize it was staged) and making a reference to what the children of Iraq are seeing is "worlds apart" (no pun intended)..

You're right, it is worlds apart. Seeing someone lying down in the street pretending to be dead and seeing actual dead bodies, (possibly of relatives), with heads, arms, legs missing, doesn't bear any sort of comparison. But at least the children of Iraq have the comfort of knowing that their mother/father/brother/sister has just been decapitated for their benefit.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by megashark
Well, you do get points for recognizing who the pig is.

Is it really necessary to imply that someone is a pig? Does that really further you (non) argument?

 

[emmagata]

Originally posted by acepepper
It's a real shame that the children of Northampton have to see these fake deaths.

The children of Baghdad are seeing the real thing, on a daily basis.

But that was happening LONG before we arrived.

 

[acepepper]

Originally posted by emmagata
But that was happening LONG before we arrived.

I can't argue with that. Half a million Iraqi children have died because of UN sanctions.

 

[emmagata]

Originally posted by acepepper
You're right, it is worlds apart. Seeing someone lying down in the street pretending to be dead and seeing actual dead bodies, (possibly of relatives), with heads, arms, legs missing, doesn't bear any sort of comparison.


But at least the children of Iraq have the comfort of knowing that their mother/father/brother/sister has just been decapitated for their benefit.

Really?

What a pleasant thought.

I think I'll use that last comment as the basis for my book project.

"Bedtime stories for Iraqi children".

 

[emmagata]

.

 

[emmagata]

Originally posted by acepepper
I can't argue with that. Half a million Iraqi children have died because of UN sanctions.

Then why do you support the UN if they seem to be so evil as to kill innocent children?

And so it was the UN sanctions that killed all the adults that were put into the wood chippers, had their tounges cut out, raped, tortured, etc?

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by acepepper
I can't argue with that. Half a million Iraqi children have died because of UN sanctions.

And how many died as a result of Saddam and his family's wretched excesses? How much money was diverted from humanitarian aid to build those expensive palaces, the underground network of tunnels and escape routes, the super-reinforced bunkers? How many people died to entertain Saddam and his family? How many starved to death or died of disease so he could be treated like a king and live in luxury and comfort?

Oh I forgot -- Saddam is such a nice, benevolent fellow and all the problems the Iraqi people suffered and continue to suffer is the result of the evil, corrupt UN led by the great Satan, the U.S.

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Is it really necessary to imply that someone is a pig? Does that really further you (non) argument?

----------------------------------------

Do you notice a "pattern" here? All of her comments about me to date have been based on nothing more than suspicions, assumptions, and failed attempts at mind reading..

When folks have no facts to back up their statements they often resort to name-calling.. Guess it's just a pathetic attempt to try to "save face"..

The "adult" thing to do would be to admit they were wrong and move on, but some folks simply don't "get" that..

 

[sha_lyn]

Children have not died because of the UN. They have died because their president has become extremely wealthy from the blood,sweat and death of "his" people". They work the oil fields for very little while he becomes extemely wealthy. If even a smal lpercentage of the wealth in that country was used to feed the chidren, not one would ever starve there again. When we did try to drop food to the people, Sadam told them to not touch it, that we the evil Americans has poisioned the food.
Recently an former Iraqi solidier told a well know story from there.
Sadam was touring a school and asked a K studented if they knew who he was. The kid responded "yes, whne ever you're on TV, my dad turns it off". Well Sadam had the father exicuted that day. I'm sure someone however will find some way to balme the US and or Bush for that, and the millions Sadam had killed in his reign. We are taking the upmost caution to prevent civilian deaths.

Ok back to the protesters...

They should have been arrested for laying in the street. If they want to protest peacefully, that is their business, but when they put lives in danger (even if is their onw) they should have been removed. If someone had ran over them, you can bet they would have sued the city for not providing protection for them.

 

[Disney Doll]

megashark-if you have nothing useful to add to the discussion, then stay out of it. The adults here are trying to have an adult discussion, and the childish name-calling adds nothing to it.

It is unfortunate that the Iraqi children are seeing their family members killed as a result of Saddam's lack of desire to obey the sanctions set forth by th U.N. It's also too bad that the U.N. didn't go a little further to insure that Iraq did obey their sanctions. It's also too bad that the previous administration let so much terrorist and terrorist-type aticivity slip by unpunished. There are many things that are too bad about this war. However, I do know enough "average" Iraqi people who now live in this country, but lived under Saddam's brutal regime for many years, to know that the avergae Iraqi citizen supports the war as a means of gaining independence form this man. One of my colleagues at work stated "When this is over and the truth comes out about what Saddam has done to his people, it will make Hitler look like a choirboy". That is a telling statement for me. This is an intelligent, well-bred well-respected physician in my community making this staement, and he is an Iragi native.

Protestors certainly have the right ot protest in this country...many soldiers have died in past wars to insure them of that right, but they do not have the right to obstruct the access of other cirtizens to the roadways or anything else. If you are lying in the road, and you get run over, there is such a thing as "personal responsibility". I know it's not a common thing in this country anymore...everything is always someone else's fault, but my mother taught me a long time ago to stay out of the street.

 

[Galahad]

Yeah, these protesters are all a bunch of harmless folks with a great love of country:

 

[AnnMorin]

I came over to the debate board because it realy was not the right place to discuss this on the cruise board. I thought I could calmly state what disturbed me about the "die in" Maybe I did not mention that I teach preschool and one of my student's father was shipped off two weeks ago, her mom is due with baby number four next month-obviously he won't be home for it. When I saw these people in the road moaning (they are quite the acting troup) covered in "blood" my heart immediatly went out to that little girl hoping that she would not somehow be exposed to this by accident. I am sure it would make her fear for her father. She told me today "my dad has an important job, he works for the president and is going to help some people be free" At four years old she does not know he is at war and should not have that shoved down her throat by others. It is so sad to me how venemous this board it.. name calling and such. I don't think the debate board is a place for me. Good luck to all of you

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by AnnMorin
I came over to the debate board because it realy was not the right place to discuss this on the cruise board. I thought I could calmly state what disturbed me about the "die in" Maybe I did not mention that I teach preschool and one of my student's father was shipped off two weeks ago, her mom is due with baby number four next month-obviously he won't be home for it. When I saw these people in the road moaning (they are quite the acting troup) covered in "blood" my heart immediatly went out to that little girl hoping that she would not somehow be exposed to this by accident. I am sure it would make her fear for her father. She told me today "my dad has an important job, he works for the president and is going to help some people be free" At four years old she does not know he is at war and should not have that shoved down her throat by others. It is so sad to me how venemous this board it.. name calling and such. I don't think the debate board is a place for me. Good luck to all of you

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Please don't allow the childish actions of a small minority here to push you away from the debate board.. Yes - some people feel very strongly about their positions - and will state them strongly - but as a rule, the "name-calling" only rears its ugly head when the name-caller has absolutely no facts to back up their statements with.. Being a preschool teacher, I'm sure you see this kind of behavior quite often when a child realizes that they're on the losing end of an arguement.. They resort to name-calling because they don't have the skills necessary to handle the situation in a more mature manner and the same holds true for a certain group of posters here..

When you mentioned that there was a preschool in the area of this "die in", my first thoughts were the same as yours.. What if the younger children witnessed this protest? Certainly they would be traumatized and upset - and for what? Are these protestors so mindless that they actually believe that a bunch of four-year-olds can stop the war?

I honestly don't understand the mind-set of protestors who feel they are somehow above the law and hold no responsibility for their actions.. Are they drawing a lot of attention? Absolutely! Does anyone take them - or their "message" seriously?
Absolutely NOT!! Come to think of it, your preschoolers could probably stage a more responsible protest than these folks can..

Hang in there - you can really learn a lot on this board - IF you have the stomach to deal with the childish behavior that occurs from time to time....

 

[trishy]

"When this is over and the truth comes out about what Saddam has done to his people, it will make Hitler look like a choirboy".

EXACTLY! - Thank you Disney Doll. What protesters don't understand (which adds up to a whole lot actually) is that the Iraqi people are NOT free to stand up to the SH regime. They would be shot (which is more humane compared to what his people really do to them) at the slightest protest. So that in itself is embarrassing. We, too, have Iraqi neighbors and friends who are waving the American Flag with yellow ribbons attached outside their homes in support of the coalition. They are proud and thankful to live here. They do not take for granted the freedoms they have here. In contrast, "these" protesters are selfish, spoiled, morons who do not deserve to even live in this country. (For those flaming right now, note the " " arounds these. Peaceful, non law-breaking protesters who do not infringe on other people's right to go about their business unimpeded need not be insulted.) I wish the average citizen could start suing these ignorant, law-breaking protesters for the trouble they inflict in their pursuit of "peace".

AnnMorin - I know how you feel - you need thick skin and a rock stomach to participate on the Debate Board. It's full of people of who care only about hurting other posters. However, I've found that most people here are intelligent people with useful things to say. You just have to weed out the ignorant posts.

 

[Geoff_M]

The protesters should spend a couple of hours listening to the stories from these people...

Iraqi-Americans Want to Fight Saddam
Tuesday, April 01, 2003

DEARBORN, Mich. — An initiative to recruit Iraqi exiles in the United States to help topple Saddam Hussein has been gaining support in Dearborn, Mich.

The Iraqi National Congress — a London-based umbrella group of various organizations opposing the Baghdad regime — is spearheading a project to assemble a pool of Iraqis to help coalition forces gain the trust of the country's people.

Emad Alkased of the Iraqi Youth Reunion — an educational group that wants to rebuild a post-Saddam Iraq — has been leading a recruiting drive in Dearborn, which has the largest ethnic Iraqi community of any U.S. city.

The drive is part of an all-out appeal to Iraqi-Americans who want to return to their homeland to help the U.S.-led coalition topple the dictatorship.

"I don't want American people to die for my country — I want me to be the first one," Alkased said. "I appreciate what American people are doing for my country, but I don't want them to spend their blood. I am ready to spend blood for my country."

Meetings are being held in Dearborn, where potential recruits fill out applications and give their address, date of birth, Social Security number and the name of the nearest airport.

Other Iraqi exiles are ready to shed their blood, too.

The Department of Defense has asked the Iraqi National Congress to find 250 volunteers who are willing to return to Iraq on 48 hours' notice.

U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz recently traveled to Dearborn to meet with hundreds of members of the city's Iraqi-American community.

"I heard one wrenching story after another about Saddam's systematic brutality," Wolfowitz said during a Friday press briefing at the State Department's Foreign Press Center.

The Pentagon has been training thousands of Saddam's opponents, including former Iraqi military officials, since last fall. President Bush gave the Pentagon $92 million for the program.

Dave Alwatan needs no convincing.

"As an American Iraqi, all our people here want to go in the front of the American military to fight Saddam's regime," he said.

Alwatan's nephew has brain damage and facial scars after Iraqi soldiers kicked him in the face when he was a year old in order to get information during the first Gulf War. Alwatan said the military was searching for him and his brother.

"I want to fight Saddam's regime, not our people," he said. "Saddam will never, ever go away without fighting. We know that. Saddam, he must go very soon."

Another Iraqi-American, Thea Alemari, said there's no doubt it's time for the dictator to go.

"You can't breathe. If you need to breathe, you have to have approval from government to say something," he said. "If you say something about the government, you be in jail or you'll be killed."

"We can speak to the people of Iraq, we have connection with the people of Iraq," Alemari added. "They feel not safe right now, but when we talk to them, I think we have large support inside Iraq."

Alemari said many Iraqis were afraid to speak out or aid coalition forces because they feared the current regime would survive this war, as it did the first Gulf War.

Exiles said they had not yet been briefed on when or where they might be needed in Iraq. Some of them are former Iraqi soldiers and want to head to the front lines.

At the very least, they said, they could be used as translators to help negotiate the surrender of Saddam's Fedayeen militia and Baath party members.

"It's my backyard. It is my city. It is my village. It is my people," said Casey Mahuba of the Iraqi Youth Union. "I know who is Fedayeen, who is Baath and who is honest people."

She said many people in Dearborn were willing to fight.

About 75 Iraqi-Americans who trained with U.S. forces at a military base in Hungary are now on the ground with coalition troops in Iraq. They're called the Free Iraqi Forces and primarily supporting humanitarian operations.

It was unclear whether the Dearborn exiles would be joining those forces. But they emphasized they were ready to do whatever was necessary to bring peace to Iraq.

"We will liberate our country. We will free Iraq no matter which it is going to cost us," Alkased said. "This is the last choice for us and this is what we are going to do."

Mahuba said fighting for her country would be worth her life.

"For me it is the freedom. It is my country. I want to sacrifice myself there," she said. "I want to die there if that is what it is going to cost. The price is the freedom."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82859,00.html

 

[megashark]

Originally posted by C.Ann
--------------------------------

And I'll give you a point or two for acknowledging that you had no "facts" to back up your comments with..

See? It's not so painful to admit that you were wrong.. That's what adults do....

Well, unfortunately, what you continue to challenge me on "lack of facts" is why my opinion of you is so low.

Any attempt at supporting that opinion would be considered a personal attack. So my hands are tied. (Perhaps you should review the board gudelines.)

But to start with the quote at hand, can you point out where I "acknowledged" I had no facts to back up my comment?

I have acknowledged that my statement was based on the impression I got from your posts, and that the offhand comment perhaps should not have been made.

(When you again bring up the idea that these protester will be run over, I am again given the impression that you have this on your mind. I have evidence that it was on the end of your fingertips when you typed it again. No one else was discussing running them down. But this is of course an 'impression' - I don't actually know that your fingertips were responding to a thought that originated in your mind. I was just taking it as a perhaps unfounded leap of faith.)

I have not "acknowledged" that I had no basis for my opinion, because that would be untrue. The basis was what I read on the board of your posts.

And I'm greatly unimpressed.

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by megashark
Well, unfortunately, what you continue to challenge me on "lack of facts" is why my opinion of you is so low.

Any attempt at supporting that opinion would be considered a personal attack. So my hands are tied. (Perhaps you should review the board gudelines.)

But to start with the quote at hand, can you point out where I "acknowledged" I had no facts to back up my comment?

I have acknowledged that my statement was based on the impression I got from your posts, and that the offhand comment perhaps should not have been made.

(When you again bring up the idea that these protester will be run over, I am again given the impression that you have this on your mind. I have evidence that it was on the end of your fingertips when you typed it again. No one else was discussing running them down. But this is of course an 'impression' - I don't actually know that your fingertips were responding to a thought that originated in your mind. I was just taking it as a perhaps unfounded leap of faith.)

I have not "acknowledged" that I had no basis for my opinion, because that would be untrue. The basis was what I read on the board of your posts.

And I'm greatly unimpressed.

-------------------------------------

Perhaps instead of responding with a post that makes absolutely no sense, you could answer the question that I posed to you way back when:

"Ummmm...because when people lay down in the middle of the road there's a very REAL possibility they could be run over???? You didn't really need me to explain that to you - did you???? If you saw someone lying in the middle of the road, wouldn't you think, "Oh my! That person could get run over!!"??..."

----------------------

Better yet, perhaps you could post a poll: "If you saw a person (or persons) laying in the middle of the road, would the thought ever cross your mind that they might get run over?"

For a person with a logical thought process I don't think it's much of a leap to come to that conslusion..

As for my reference to you acknowledging that you were wrong, I was referring to your blanket statement regarding the rear-end collisions that took place when protestors laid down in the middle of the off-ramp of an interstate highway in my area. You indicated that a driver who rear-ended someone else was ALWAYS liable and I provided facts that indicated you were wrong.. Rather than reply to that, you just "disappeared" from that thread..

In terms of your "opinion" of me, I think I have stated in other threads that while you prefer to form your opinions based on suspicions, assumptions, and impressions, I prefer to take the high road and base my opinions on facts.. I would never imply that someone on these boards was a "pig" simply because they didn't agree with me.. Children behave in that manner - adults don't..

I'm so sorry to hear that you are "unimpressed" - but neither I -or anyone else - is here to "impress" you.. We're attempting to debate the irresponsible behavior of unlawful protestors.. Perhaps you would have more success if you took your arguements and name-calling outside to the playground during recess..

 

[Mackey Mouse]

My bottom line answer is this.. I respect their rights to freedom of speech....but they need to respect ours.....and by blocking streets and hindering others from going about their daily routines, our rights are being taken away..

Personally.. take them to jail and have them stay for a few days... then the rest of us can go about our business........

I am intentionally staying away from Boston as I do not want to get trapped by some sort of demonstration.. that is not fair to me.