The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[Honu]

On the Con thread, they're looking for a line to chant at their rallies. Isn't it obvious?

Mac is Back........Four More Years!!

Oh, let's hope it's Mac is Back. That's too easy for us. Mac is whack. Mac the hack. Mac's on crack. I could go on all day.

 

[chris1gill]

Well, looks like Nader does it again

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...residential-election-poll-shows_521720_4.html

Why is it every primary I vote in we lose due to some third party & we wind up with a Republican in the WH? Can somebody please explain this to me? I'm really p&ssed.. whether it's Ralph Nader, Steve Forbes or Ross Perot, for the love of all that is holy can they stop spoiling the d**n race?

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Now that just doesn't make the rest of the country happy... it would be far too simple, far too inexpensive... It is interesting to talk to Floridian's who both did vote and did not vote when they knew their Presidential vote wasn't going to be counted. Most homeowner's voted because of the homeowner amendment... which means the Democrats who rent for the most part probably stayed home... have they made mention of that in the news at all down there?

Of course!! It's the talk of the town.

Buddy of mine and his wife live two house down from me, both Obama supporters, who rent the house they live in and didn't vote. Most Floridians understand why many renters didn't vote and find it amusing what the candidates and the voters from other states think that we should do with our elections.

As far as the potential of pulling an accurate mail-in revote together, my thinking is, when you combine the skill of Florida Democratic Party, the reliability of US Postal Service, and the rush of elderly snowbirds leaving the state during the month of June...what could possibly go wrong?!?!

 

[robinb]

I don't know if this has been discussed here...don't remember reading about it, but how about the idea of splitting the pledged delegates 50/50 and allowing the Florida/Michigan supers to vote as they see fit? It seems like the cheapest, easiest way to go, and the DNC doesn't have to now reward Florida and Michigan for originally breaking the rules...

I personally don't like that solution because it still means that those people's votes do not really count. I have been for a do-over since the start.

 

[chris1gill]

Of course!! It's the talk of the town.

Buddy of mine and his wife live two house down from me, both Obama supporters, who rent the house they live in and didn't vote. Most Floridians understand why many renters didn't vote and find it amusing what the candidates and the voters from other states think that we should do with our elections.

As far as the potential of pulling an accurate mail-in revote together, my thinking is, when you combine the skill of Florida Democratic Party, the reliability of US Postal Service, and the rush of elderly snowbirds leaving the state during the month of June...what could possibly go wrong?!?!

Good to hear the local perspective and to confirm what I had feared in regards to those who rent and would have voted Democratically. The Republican's still had reason to vote since only half their delegates were stripped... still incentive to go.... Herein lies the biggest of problems and honestly without your Governor allowing for a new primary (lack of machines and money), I think you can only do a 50/50 split and tell future states not to pull this crap..... It's unfortunate it went the way it went... Who are most local's angry at if you would define them as angry?

Well, since you can't verify signatures, you can't verify mailed in votes

 

[chris1gill]

I personally don't like that solution because it still means that those people's votes do not really count. I have been for a do-over since the start.

The Governor won't authorize it from what I understand, and there are not enough voting machines as they are all being swapped out.

There's no way to estimate how many people (renter's) would have voted or for whom...

But I still want someone to tell me why EVERY election I have voted in besides Bill Clinton's there has been a spoiler of some sort... I am TIRED of it... Dem's lose by 5, the exact same number the third party gets, I am MAD and this year looks NO different....

I have to take my own advice and not get myself in an uproar... but I am just tired of the democrats losing every election.

 

[NewJersey]

Oh, let's hope it's Mac is Back. That's too easy for us. Mac is whack. Mac the hack. Mac's on crack. I could go on all day.

Mac is whack.

 

[chris1gill]

Mac is whack.

Yeh, 8 years of that and I might be too....

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Good to hear the local perspective and to confirm what I had feared in regards to those who rent and would have voted Democratically. The Republican's still had reason to vote since only half their delegates were stripped... still incentive to go.... Herein lies the biggest of problems and honestly without your Governor allowing for a new primary (lack of machines and money), I think you can only do a 50/50 split and tell future states not to pull this crap..... It's unfortunate it went the way it went... Who are most local's angry at if you would define them as angry?

Well, since you can't verify signatures, you can't verify mailed in votes

Well, I think both sides aren't so much angry as they are frustrated with our state officials. In the end, I think most Floridians are open to some sort of realistic compromise. We'll have to see how it all pans out in the end.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

You guys see Gail Collins' op-ed piece from Saturdays NYTimes? The chick is always spot on with her opinions!!:

George Speaks, Badly
By GAIL COLLINS
Published: March 15, 2008

Watching George W. Bush address the New York financial community Friday brought back many memories. Unfortunately, they were about his speech right after Hurricane Katrina, the one when he said: “America will be a stronger place for it.” You could almost see the thought-bubble forming over the audience: Not this week, kiddo.

The president squinched his face and bit his lip and seemed too antsy to stand still. As he searched for the name of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia (“the king, uh, the king of Saudi”) and made guy-fun of one of the questioners (“Who picked Gigot?”), you had to wonder what the international financial community makes of a country whose president could show up to talk economics in the middle of a liquidity crisis and kind of flop around the stage as if he was emcee at the Iowa Republican Pig Roast.

We’re really past expecting anything much, but in times of crisis you would like to at least believe your leader has the capacity to pretend he’s in control. Suddenly, I recalled a day long ago when my husband worked for a struggling paper full of worried employees and the publisher walked into the newsroom wearing a gorilla suit.

The country that elected George Bush — sort of — because he seemed like he’d be more fun to have a beer with than Al Gore or John Kerry is really getting its comeuppance. Our credit markets are foundering, and all we’ve got is a guy who looks like he’s ready to kick back and start the weekend.

This is not the first time Bush’s attempts to calm our fears redoubled our nightmares. His first speech after 9/11 — that two-minute job on the Air Force base — was so stilted that the entire country felt like heading for the nearest fallout shelter. After Katrina, of course, it took forever to pry him out of Crawford, and then he more or less read a laundry list of Goods Being Shipped to the Flood Zone and delivered some brief assurances that things would work out.

O.K., so he’s not good at first-day response. Or second. Third can be a problem, too. But this economic crisis has been going on for months, and all the president could come up with sounded as if it had been composed for a Rotary Club and then delivered by a guy who had never read it before. “One thing is certain that Congress will do is waste some of your money,” he said. “So I’ve challenged members of Congress to cut the number of cost of earmarks in half.”

Besides being incoherent, this is a perfect sign of an utterly phony speech. Earmarks are one of those easy-to-attack Congressional weaknesses, and in a perfect world, they would not exist. But they cost approximately two cents in the grand budgetary scheme of things. Saying you’re going to fix the economy or balance the budget by cutting out earmarks is like saying you’re going to end global warming by banning bathroom nightlights.

Bush pointed out — as if the entire economic world didn’t already know — that Congress has already passed an economic incentive package that will send tax rebate checks to more than 130 million households. “A lot of them are a little skeptical about this ‘checks in the mail’ stuff,” he jibed. Jokejoke. Winkwink.

Then, after a run through of “ideas I strongly reject,” Bush finally got around to announcing that he was going to “talk about what we’re for. We’re obviously for sending out over $150 billion into the marketplace in the form of checks that will be reaching the mailboxes by the second week of May.

“We’re for that,” he added.

Once the markets had that really, really clear, Bush felt free to go on to the other things he was for, which very much resembled that laundry list for Katrina (“400 trucks containing 5.4 million Meals Ready to Eat — or M.R.E.’s ... 3.4 million pounds of ice ...”) This time the rundown included a six-month-old F.H.A. refinancing program, and an industry group called Hope Now that offers advice to people with mortgage problems.

And then, finally, the nub of the housing crisis: “Problem we have is, a lot of folks aren’t responding to over a million letters sent out to offer them assistance and mortgage counseling,” the president of the United States told the world.

But wait — more positive news! The secretary of Housing and Urban Development is proposing that lenders supply an easy-to-read summary with mortgage agreements. “You know, these mortgages can be pretty frightening to people. I mean, there’s a lot of tiny print,” the president said.

Really, if he can’t fix the economy, the least he could do is rehearse the speech.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/opinion/15collins.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

 

[Chloe'sMom]

Lets see how they resolve the FL & MI votes.

BO supporters prefer to show outrage against Ferraro & I prefer to show outrage over how 35 million voters (i guess half are democrats......say 18 million voters) in MI & FL aren't allowed to have their vote count.

Maybe not a conspiracy, but it darn well explains why the leadership is..... dragging their feet on FL & MI.....were mad when HC didn't concede prior to TX & Ohio....& lose a gasket anytime they perceive a "shot" is made at their assumed nominee.

If there isn't a definitive popular vote winner (given that neither won enough delegates), then this nomination will be a sham.

Hound - before I post about this, please know I respect you alot.

The people of Florida and Michigan should be angry with their local government for making their votes not count. They pushed ahead their primaries, despite the DNC not wanting them to, they broke rules, they played hard ball - and the DNC decided to not count the votes in the primaries. Had the local government followed the rules - then those votes would count. The people of florida and Michigan need to look no further then their Governors as to who to blame for this particular mess.

Sorry - they broke the rules - we cannot simply change the rules because it benefits one candidate over the other.

I hope the people of michigan and florida kick their current local government to the curb.

~Amanda

 

[Chloe'sMom]

You guys see Gail Collins' op-ed piece from Saturdays NYTimes? The chick is always spot on with her opinions!!:

George Speaks, Badly
By GAIL COLLINS
Published: March 15, 2008

Watching George W. Bush address the New York financial community Friday brought back many memories. Unfortunately, they were about his speech right after Hurricane Katrina, the one when he said: “America will be a stronger place for it.” You could almost see the thought-bubble forming over the audience: Not this week, kiddo.

The president squinched his face and bit his lip and seemed too antsy to stand still. As he searched for the name of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia (“the king, uh, the king of Saudi”) and made guy-fun of one of the questioners (“Who picked Gigot?”), you had to wonder what the international financial community makes of a country whose president could show up to talk economics in the middle of a liquidity crisis and kind of flop around the stage as if he was emcee at the Iowa Republican Pig Roast.

We’re really past expecting anything much, but in times of crisis you would like to at least believe your leader has the capacity to pretend he’s in control. Suddenly, I recalled a day long ago when my husband worked for a struggling paper full of worried employees and the publisher walked into the newsroom wearing a gorilla suit.

The country that elected George Bush — sort of — because he seemed like he’d be more fun to have a beer with than Al Gore or John Kerry is really getting its comeuppance. Our credit markets are foundering, and all we’ve got is a guy who looks like he’s ready to kick back and start the weekend.

This is not the first time Bush’s attempts to calm our fears redoubled our nightmares. His first speech after 9/11 — that two-minute job on the Air Force base — was so stilted that the entire country felt like heading for the nearest fallout shelter. After Katrina, of course, it took forever to pry him out of Crawford, and then he more or less read a laundry list of Goods Being Shipped to the Flood Zone and delivered some brief assurances that things would work out.

O.K., so he’s not good at first-day response. Or second. Third can be a problem, too. But this economic crisis has been going on for months, and all the president could come up with sounded as if it had been composed for a Rotary Club and then delivered by a guy who had never read it before. “One thing is certain that Congress will do is waste some of your money,” he said. “So I’ve challenged members of Congress to cut the number of cost of earmarks in half.”

Besides being incoherent, this is a perfect sign of an utterly phony speech. Earmarks are one of those easy-to-attack Congressional weaknesses, and in a perfect world, they would not exist. But they cost approximately two cents in the grand budgetary scheme of things. Saying you’re going to fix the economy or balance the budget by cutting out earmarks is like saying you’re going to end global warming by banning bathroom nightlights.

Bush pointed out — as if the entire economic world didn’t already know — that Congress has already passed an economic incentive package that will send tax rebate checks to more than 130 million households. “A lot of them are a little skeptical about this ‘checks in the mail’ stuff,” he jibed. Jokejoke. Winkwink.

Then, after a run through of “ideas I strongly reject,” Bush finally got around to announcing that he was going to “talk about what we’re for. We’re obviously for sending out over $150 billion into the marketplace in the form of checks that will be reaching the mailboxes by the second week of May.

“We’re for that,” he added.

Once the markets had that really, really clear, Bush felt free to go on to the other things he was for, which very much resembled that laundry list for Katrina (“400 trucks containing 5.4 million Meals Ready to Eat — or M.R.E.’s ... 3.4 million pounds of ice ...”) This time the rundown included a six-month-old F.H.A. refinancing program, and an industry group called Hope Now that offers advice to people with mortgage problems.

And then, finally, the nub of the housing crisis: “Problem we have is, a lot of folks aren’t responding to over a million letters sent out to offer them assistance and mortgage counseling,” the president of the United States told the world.

But wait — more positive news! The secretary of Housing and Urban Development is proposing that lenders supply an easy-to-read summary with mortgage agreements. “You know, these mortgages can be pretty frightening to people. I mean, there’s a lot of tiny print,” the president said.

Really, if he can’t fix the economy, the least he could do is rehearse the speech.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/opinion/15collins.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Great Article in a lot of ways. I don't expect our President to be an economist - and right now the market has been interesting. I've worked in the mortgage business for 5 years now, and I've never seen the market do what is it doing.

In reality - everyone should have seen this coming. the real estate bubble in areas like NY, CA, FL etc - was so big that it could block out the sun. What we should have seen coming and ignored was areas like Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan - the foreclosure capitols of the country losing so many jobs to out sourcing, and plain phasing out that people could't afford to make their payments.

Then there is the price of gas - which we can color as not a problem because it has incrased with the cost of inflation - but it is still a problem as not only are we paying for the cost of gas in our own cars - but the cost of gas is being handed to us through our groceries, and other services.

Also another issue which isn't being talked about is that CEO raises have grown 46% over the last 10 years - the average worker - 7% - if they are lucky. You've got companies NOT giving raises because the cost of health care has gone up so much for them that they can't afford to give people raises.

There are some economist who believe the best thing that can happen right now is a small recession. Despite the amount of sensationalism that the press is adding to this situation - that really doesn't mean everything will go to hell in a hand basket. The economy works best when you leave it alone. And the ecomonmy works in cycles which means we are over do.

~Amanda

 

[punkin]

There are some economist who believe the best thing that can happen right now is a small recession. Despite the amount of sensationalism that the press is adding to this situation - that really doesn't mean everything will go to hell in a hand basket. The economy works best when you leave it alone. And the ecomonmy works in cycles which means we are over do.

~Amanda

What we are about to get boys and girls is a very BIG depression.

 

[chris1gill]

What we are about to get boys and girls is a very BIG depression.

I sort of think I'm with Punkin on this, I don't say that all too often, but unfortunately this assessment is spot on. In the Boston Globe yesterday a chief economist said we were in for the biggest recession since WWII

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2008/03/15/recession_is_here_economist_declares/

A blip:
The following appeared on Boston.com:
Headline: Recession is here, economist declares
Date: March 15, 2008

"The United States has already slipped into a deep recession that
could be the most serious since World War II, said Martin Feldstein,
president of the Cambridge group that is considered the official word
on economic cycles."

 

[LuvDuke]

Good to hear the local perspective and to confirm what I had feared in regards to those who rent and would have voted Democratically. The Republican's still had reason to vote since only half their delegates were stripped... still incentive to go.... Herein lies the biggest of problems and honestly without your Governor allowing for a new primary (lack of machines and money), I think you can only do a 50/50 split and tell future states not to pull this crap..... It's unfortunate it went the way it went... Who are most local's angry at if you would define them as angry?

Well, since you can't verify signatures, you can't verify mailed in votes

Putting aside the signed pledge not to campaign in Florida, Hillary made a few stops and called them fundraisers. Bill, OTOH, actively campaigned for his wife. But I digress.

The Republican governor of Florida has absolutely no interest in protecting the voter's rights. If he did, he wouldn't have signed the legislation, in May 2007, after the DNC told the Florida voter they would be stripped of their delegates.

He's just interested in keeping the pot stirred as was the entire Republican legislature of Florida.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Putting aside the signed pledge not to campaign in Florida, Hillary made a few stops and called them fundraisers. Bill, OTOH, actively campaigned for his wife. But I digress.

The Republican governor of Florida has absolutely no interest in protecting the voter's rights. If he did, he wouldn't have signed the legislation, in May 2007, after the DNC told the Florida voter they would be stripped of their delegates.

He's just interested in keeping the pot stirred as was the entire Republican legislature of Florida.

That's what my parents are saying about it too. Dad wants to know what the Republican party offered Crist to pull this little stunt. Cabinet post? VP? Ambassador to somewhere warm and sunny so he can keep that really unnatural looking tan??

 

[JARNJ3]

Putting aside the signed pledge not to campaign in Florida, Hillary made a few stops and called them fundraisers. Bill, OTOH, actively campaigned for his wife. But I digress.

The Republican governor of Florida has absolutely no interest in protecting the voter's rights. If he did, he wouldn't have signed the legislation, in May 2007, after the DNC told the Florida voter they would be stripped of their delegates.

He's just interested in keeping the pot stirred as was the entire Republican legislature of Florida.

Oh my goodness. I really don't want to debate this - but I will state for the record - somewhere within this thread there are links to articles that definitively state that Clinton did not campaign AT ALL. Fundraisers were allowed, and she abided by the rules. I don't have time to search for the articles again.

In fact, Obama had some commercials air in FL - as a result of a national ad buy on CNN.

As for the revote - republican or not - I don't think he wants it on his resume that he was the man solely responsible for disenfranchising some of his constituents.

There's a solution out there somewhere for FL & MI - one of our politicians will be able to find it...... I hope.

 

[Charade]

Oh, let's hope it's Mac is Back. That's too easy for us. Mac is whack. Mac the hack. Mac's on crack. I could go on all day.

Hey, stop talking smack about Mac. K?

 

[LuvDuke]

I sort of think I'm with Punkin on this, I don't say that all too often, but unfortunately this assessment is spot on. In the Boston Globe yesterday a chief economist said we were in for the biggest recession since WWII

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2008/03/15/recession_is_here_economist_declares/

A blip:
The following appeared on Boston.com:
Headline: Recession is here, economist declares
Date: March 15, 2008

"The United States has already slipped into a deep recession that
could be the most serious since World War II, said Martin Feldstein,
president of the Cambridge group that is considered the official word
on economic cycles."

I was at a party Saturday night. Our little group has none each other over 20 years and we regulary get together.

A couple comes in and the husband looks like he's aged 20 years since I last saw him in December.

I get the whole story later on. They're going to lose their house. Foreclosure will start in a 2 months or so. How they got to this point is doozy.

Several years ago, their son had a brain tumor and had to have surgery. While the son was in intensive care, the father had a massive heart attack and had to had a quadruple bypass. Just as a preemptive strike for the "personal responsibility crowd", they had insurance. As is common with most policies, it is capped at $1,000,000 or so.

They get the bills. There was nearly $2,000,000 in hospital/surgical/drug bills. Their insurance only covered up to $1,000,000. They owed nearly $1,000,000 in bills.

They tried to work out a settlement. The various groups sued them and it cost them a fortune in legal bills. Finally, they declared bankruptcy/

Sure, they should've sold their house, but frankly, there is something obscene about forcing a family to sell their home because of medical bills. I know the "anti UHC" bunch doesn't grasp that concept and that wasn't for their benefit.

So they're trying to settle the bills, his business goes south, and she loses her job.

And they're a few months of losing their home. Their story is just one of millions.

The depression is coming only this time it will take all those $50,000 millionaire who've been voting for the Republicans. A president can't do anything? That was Hoover's excuse. The Republican party is still the party of Herbert Hoover.

Tell the generation that lived through the depression what FDR did for them. Tell them that no president can do anything about a depression. Then get out of the way as they laugh their ***-es off.

 

[DISUNC]

Putting aside the signed pledge not to campaign in Florida, Hillary made a few stops and called them fundraisers. Bill, OTOH, actively campaigned for his wife. But I digress..

Not true at all.

Hillary attended one fundraiser the night of the Primary, she never even stepped foot on Florida soil until AFTER the Primary was closed.
OBAMA was the ONLY candidate to actively campaign in Florida. He ran TV ads on Cable televison. With the excuse that cable is national Tv, nothing he can do.
BTW since the Florida Primary is over, Obama has not run any national cable ads.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080123/NEWS/801230668

The Republican governor of Florida has absolutely no interest in protecting the voter's rights. If he did, he wouldn't have signed the legislation, in May 2007, after the DNC told the Florida voter they would be stripped of their delegates.

He's just interested in keeping the pot stirred as was the entire Republican legislature of Florida.

This is true, however the DNC played right into his hands by discounting the DEMOCRAT vote. That will show those bad Republicans!