Summer's over

[Hrhpd]

I did see it but not insecure at all. I know that they aren't necessary for a kid to succeed.

I would guess the one to ask about football is the coach. Here they are not allowed to practice until late July. They have spring training before school is out and no more until right before school. The majority of the boys play baseball so wouldn't be at summer practice anyway. Some do go to camp at one of the colleges but its an individual choice.

Kids in band should be practicing their instrument anyway but not 8 hours a day. Here the band has a two week camp to learn the formations and the music.

Past those I don't think any of it is necessary. Nor do I think work that is equal to a semester of work is necessary.

Where has anybody posted anywhere that somebody's workload is even close to a semester's worth of work? Most I have seen is an hour a day, tops. Not even close to a college semester's worth of work.

As for the football, I would never approach the coach. DS would be happiest if football was from sun up to sun down. I may think 5 hours a day is crazy, but those young men would be complaining big time if the moms circled their helicopters and tried to cut their football time. I would bet the band folks feel the same way.

 

[Lorelei Lee]

Well, when I took AP exams, back in the dark ages (1970's), it was different from what my daughter experienced.

In my day, we took world history in 9th grade, European history in 10th grade and American history in 11th grade. Senior year Social Studies was an elective, and my choice was AP American history. Having gone through the basics as juniors, we could explore the topuc in depth in the AP class.

Now the sequence is global history in 9th and 10th grade, American history in 11th and 1/2 year courses in government and economics during the senior year. The AP courses in European history, American History, government and economics are offered in lieu of the standard high school courses.

Same story with AP English and AP Spanish (which I dropped) - offered as electives after the high school basics had been completed.


I had fewer opportunities to take AP courses than my daughter had, but I came into those courses with a stronger background than she had.

 

[Lorelei Lee]

Well, when I took AP exams, back in the dark ages (1970's), it was different from what my daughter experienced.

In my day, we took world history in 9th grade, European history in 10th grade and American history in 11th grade. Senior year Social Studies was an elective, and my choice was AP American history. Having gone through the basics as juniors, we could explore the topuc in depth in the AP class.

Now the sequence is global history in 9th and 10th grade, American history in 11th and 1/2 year courses in government and economics during the senior year. The AP courses in European history, American History, government and economics are offered in lieu of the standard high school courses.

Same story with AP English and AP Spanish (which I dropped) - offered as electives after the high school basics had been completed.


I had fewer opportunities to take AP courses than my daughter had, but I came into those courses with a stronger background than she had.

 

[Southernmiss]

I'm not sure I understand; how is a month of instruction time being lost? The AP exams were always in the start of May when I was taking them, so that hasn't changed (although school is now starting in mid-August, versus after Labor Day, so it seems like they are picking up days, not losing them).

I'm not sure about the frequency of standardized tests in other states, but our local high school takes one per year (the cleverly named Iowa Assessments) for a few hours a day for about a week, which is about what I recall from high school, as well, when we took the ironically named Iowa Test of Educational Development, despite the fact that I lived nowhere near Iowa at the time, so those seem to be about the same.

You may be correct, I'm just not understanding where a month of instructional time has been lost since I was in high school.

My earlier post was on my phone, so I condensed my message a lot and wasn't clear in my meaning.

School starts this year August 7th and will end about May 23rd. The AP exams are given the first week of May. So in essence, all instruction and material for AP classes must be learned and completed by the test date. Our schools have 180 days of instruction, but standardized testing including APs starts the first week of May.

For many of the standardized tests (not AP) there are pre tests and assesment tests to see where the students are with the instruction given. So these take extra time out.


I asked DS, who just finished his freshman year in college, about the APs and if he felt summer assignments were necessary and explained why summer assignments were necessary.

Here's our discussion in a nutshell.

Yes, he believed they were necessary for his classes and that having summer assignments allowed them to "hit the ground running" at the beginning of the school year. They didn't have the week lag of getting back into the routine and review before they did new material. Because the students had already done some work over the summer, productive discussions and debates (especially AP US History) could begin immediately.

In his experience, the AP classes were smaller and there was often time for discussion and debates that his other non AP classes couldn't get into. He believes that the APs better prepared him for college work and that "regular" classes were more focused on prepping people to pass standardized tests.

His classes covered between 1 and 3 chapters of material a week in his AP classes with many nights up late, after band or soccer, completing assignments.

He did think some classroom instruction time was lost because of standardized testing and that the teachers did take about a week of class time to review before the AP test.


He was able to get college credit for 4 of his classes, so almost a first semester of college out of the way with his AP scores.

 

[disfan07]

Mid nineties was before the era of frequent standardized tests. The ap tests occur at the beginning of May. I think the idea is to make up for the loss of a month of instruction time with summer assignments.

Thats kind of what happens in the county where I went to school. We don't start school until after labor day. But the AP tests are like the second week of May (I think?) We were in school until about the 15th or 16th of June. Which means we basically had to be done with the class a month before school actually ended. So basically, AP classes for us consisted of 8 months of instruction...not 9. After AP exams, our teachers really stopped teaching for the most part. We would do some more "fun" projects but the real work was already done. The last month for AP classes was a joke.

 

[Colleen27]

Personally, I am more concerned about the summer sports requirements schools are thinking necessary. Really, 5 hours a day of football practice starting the day after school gets out is necessary? And our band often practices more than 8 hours a day. Crazy.

I think the sports/arts requirements don't get the same reaction because they're more purely elective. Yes, a student can choose not to take AP classes but around here they're the only advanced track available and selective colleges expect to see mostly AP classes in the last two years of any serious applicant's transcript so opting out is not as easy as it sounds for a kid with goals. Football, on the other hand, is easily dropped without consequence for most players.

I absolutely HATE the summer football schedule here. My son has 3 days off when school gets out and then 4th of July week. That's it. The rest of the summer he'll be busy with football for 2-3hrs/day, and if a player misses those "optional" (because the state high school athletic association limits when official, mandatory practices can start) conditioning sessions it will effect his team placement and playing time. But it is my son's passion and the schedule doesn't bother him a bit, so I put up with it for the 5 years he'll play school ball (8th to 12th).

 

[Colleen27]

Thats kind of what happens in the county where I went to school. We don't start school until after labor day. But the AP tests are like the second week of May (I think?) We were in school until about the 15th or 16th of June. Which means we basically had to be done with the class a month before school actually ended. So basically, AP classes for us consisted of 8 months of instruction...not 9. After AP exams, our teachers really stopped teaching for the most part. We would do some more "fun" projects but the real work was already done. The last month for AP classes was a joke.

It is that way here too... From the exams until school year's end in mid-June AP courses turn into a glorified study hall. But that's also why the summer work is so extensive, I think - because starting after Labor Day means they don't really have a full school year to get through the year's material before the tests.

 

[GigglyFigment]

As others have stated, it's a very normal load for AP courses. Even for non-AP courses I sometimes had summer reading. I wouldn't freak out about it because honestly I found it all to be pretty easy and not time consuming at all. The point was more to have an introduction to the material that would be covered in the course. I did most of it before June was over and finished up right before school started so it would be fresh in my mind. I could definitely tell the difference between the kids who had done the work and those who did not.

For my AP Government class I had to read a book about important court cases and write a paper about three of the cases covered in the book. This assignment probably had the most impact because I learned so much about landmark cases - many of which are still controversial topics today. So this wasn't just good for school, it was good for life.

AP Psychology we had a list of topics and we had to pick one and write a one page essay on what we chose. Of course what most of us ended up doing was reading a bit about everything before we chose so the assignment itself was a bit of psychology in action.

Most of my literature classes were just basic reading assignments. My favorite one was what I had to do for 9th grade. We had a list of authors that whose works were required reading in all grades and were told to choose a book by one author and read it and be ready to talk about it in class the first week. I loved it because it we had control over something we typically did not.

I chose AP classes based on my interests and possible majors in college, not hoping for college credit. The only college credit I was concerned with getting was the foreign language credit for doing 3 years in HS.

 

[sam_gordon]

Mid nineties was before the era of frequent standardized tests. The ap tests occur at the beginning of May. I think the idea is to make up for the loss of a month of instruction time with summer assignments.

That's funny, I remember standardized tests (I think 7th, 9th, 10th & 11th grades) when I went to school. This was in the mid to late 80's.

 

[sam_gordon]

I for one, am much happier with an hour a day during the summer if it lessens the homework during the school year when the kids have other classes to juggle.

I don't think an hour a day (even for the 60 worksheets of the OP's daughter) is going to impact the summer much. It is not going to take away swim time or family time. Our neighborhood pool doesn't even open till 11:00 with lessons starting at 9am.

I agree an hour a day is not really a big deal. But the next question (which has been asked but no one has answered yet) is "how much is too much"? 2 hours a day? 5 hours a day?

 

[Tinijocaro]

Mid nineties was before the era of frequent standardized tests. The ap tests occur at the beginning of May. I think the idea is to make up for the loss of a month of instruction time with summer assignments.

NYS standardized testing ends in 8th grade here in NYS. Do you have it through high school where you live?

 

[Aliceacc]

I agree an hour a day is not really a big deal. But the next question (which has been asked but no one has answered yet) is "how much is too much"? 2 hours a day? 5 hours a day?

Again, I have no AP background.

But I think the problem is that it's hard to quantify. What takes 2 hours for one student may very well take 3 or 5 for another.

But for me, personally, 2+ hours of homework each day over the summer would be a lot; I'm not sure it would be worth the tradeoff of the possiblity of doing well enough on the AP exam to earn those extra credits.

 

[luvsJack]

Where has anybody posted anywhere that somebody's workload is even close to a semester's worth of work? Most I have seen is an hour a day, tops. Not even close to a college semester's worth of work.

As for the football, I would never approach the coach. DS would be happiest if football was from sun up to sun down. I may think 5 hours a day is crazy, but those young men would be complaining big time if the moms circled their helicopters and tried to cut their football time. I would bet the band folks feel the same way.

I didn't really mean to literally ask the coach. But that he may have reasons that we don't understand. I am surprised that there are no restrictions on practice time though. Here its whatever organization that's over highschool sports for the state that regulates it. Part of the reason is so that they don't have the players out in the heat and humidity.

Someone said something upthread about the amount of work per day being equal to the amount of time in a semester classes. Many of the juniors and seniors in ds's school are dual enrolled. They take a couple of math classes, English classes and a few take Biology or A&P. Its based on their ACT score. The juniors that did these classes got some college out of the way for free and still have their summer free. Seems like a better deal to me.

To each their own of course and if a kid can do it all without stressing out, no reason not to. I just wonder how many are stressed to the max when they are stretched so thin.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

NYS standardized testing ends in 8th grade here in NYS. Do you have it through high school where you live?

What about the Regents? Also, ESL students still take the NYSESLAT through 12th grade. Plus there's the NYSAA for some students.

 

[Lorelei Lee]

NYS standardized testing ends in 8th grade here in NYS. Do you have it through high school where you live?

And Regents exams begin in high school. Honors level students may actually be taking Regents exams in 8th grade.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using DISBoards

 

[Anne34]

You can see how different schools are all over the country. Our schools don't have a summer reading list until high school. You need to read one book & the teacher will give an assignment the first week of school. My dd & ds both have taken ap classes (micro, physics, stats, chemistry etc- no history. Known as crazy homework class). We have not had an summer homework or projects. One class asked them to look over some work since most hadn't taken e regular class since sophomore year, but no real homework.

 

[Colleen27]

I didn't really mean to literally ask the coach. But that he may have reasons that we don't understand. I am surprised that there are no restrictions on practice time though. Here its whatever organization that's over highschool sports for the state that regulates it. Part of the reason is so that they don't have the players out in the heat and humidity.

Someone said something upthread about the amount of work per day being equal to the amount of time in a semester classes. Many of the juniors and seniors in ds's school are dual enrolled. They take a couple of math classes, English classes and a few take Biology or A&P. Its based on their ACT score. The juniors that did these classes got some college out of the way for free and still have their summer free. Seems like a better deal to me.

I'm not sure about other states, but we do have restrictions on practice time. The "loophole" that allows summer practices is that conditioning, weight training, speed drills, basically any practice that doesn't involve gearing up or running plays, isn't technically practice. And officially those "off season workouts" aren't supposed to be mandatory - mandatory practices can't start until early Aug - but everyone knows they are. That might not be true in a district where football is less competitive, but it is just how it is here. But even within official practice rules, there's almost a month of summer commitment required because the season starts before the school year. I do think there's a solid basis for it - it would be tough for a kid who hadn't done the weights and conditioning to throw on pads in August, at the hottest time of year, after a summer on the couch or at the beach, and be game-ready 2 weeks later.

When it comes to AP courses, I do think dual enrollment is the better deal when it is available and I'm encouraging DD to go that route (though right now she's more interested in the IB program). Rather than college-level work in a high school atmosphere it shows the student can handle college level work and a college atmosphere. And from what I understand from friends with older students than mine, transfer credits from our community college are more widely accepted/recognized than AP credits so dual enrollment is the better option for getting a head start on higher education.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

My earlier post was on my phone, so I condensed my message a lot and wasn't clear in my meaning.

School starts this year August 7th and will end about May 23rd. The AP exams are given the first week of May. So in essence, all instruction and material for AP classes must be learned and completed by the test date. Our schools have 180 days of instruction, but standardized testing including APs starts the first week of May.

For many of the standardized tests (not AP) there are pre tests and assesment tests to see where the students are with the instruction given. So these take extra time out.


I asked DS, who just finished his freshman year in college, about the APs and if he felt summer assignments were necessary and explained why summer assignments were necessary.

Here's our discussion in a nutshell.

Yes, he believed they were necessary for his classes and that having summer assignments allowed them to "hit the ground running" at the beginning of the school year. They didn't have the week lag of getting back into the routine and review before they did new material. Because the students had already done some work over the summer, productive discussions and debates (especially AP US History) could begin immediately.

In his experience, the AP classes were smaller and there was often time for discussion and debates that his other non AP classes couldn't get into. He believes that the APs better prepared him for college work and that "regular" classes were more focused on prepping people to pass standardized tests.

His classes covered between 1 and 3 chapters of material a week in his AP classes with many nights up late, after band or soccer, completing assignments.

He did think some classroom instruction time was lost because of standardized testing and that the teachers did take about a week of class time to review before the AP test.


He was able to get college credit for 4 of his classes, so almost a first semester of college out of the way with his AP scores.

It's interesting, and certainly valid. It also appears to be the norm at many high schools now, I just don't understand why it's necessary beyond essentially being an arms race to see how much more each school can pack into the year. When I was in high school, we started after Labor Day and took the AP classes in early May, so we had even less time than the kids today who are starting school in August, and yet we all did well in the class and on the test without loads of summer work.

I'm not disputing that the summer work now exists, or even that there has been some fundamental change to the system to make it more important, I just fail to see why a test that my classmates and I were able to take without summer work 20 years ago and score 5s on now requires a panoply of summer work, in addition to the extra class time picked up by starting school earlier in the summer, but for the obvious fact that there has been "test prep creep" that is causing schools to accelerate their preparations, which in turn require other schools to slide up to match them, creating the aforementioned "arms race".

I'm also in no way disputing the value of the AP/IB system. Despite the fact that my university did not give transcript credit for my AP test results, the classes themselves in high school were amongst my most enjoyed precisely because they did delve into subjects more deeply than other classes. We just managed to do it without a summer filled with worksheets.

C'est la vie...

ETA, I should also add that, for all I know, my prep school may have been the anomaly back in the mid-1990s and perhaps the high school students elsewhere were living summers packed with completing AP worksheets. Honestly, I lived a pretty sheltered life in high school and have no idea what was going on at other schools, and now, since my children are still in early elementary school, I haven't studied what is going on in our local high school, nor what is now going on back at my own high school. So maybe we were different, even then, but regardless, it worked for us then and so I still think the test prep creep is overwrought. My high school DID do the summers packed with athletic training (two a days for football, debate camps, student council retreats, etc.), just no major homework assignments for specific classes, beyond the school-wide reading list.

 

[DopeyDame]

This may get me flamed, but... I wonder if some of the seeming expansion of summer work for AP classes is due to the fact that more and more kids are taking the classes.
In the 90s, AP classes were typically restricted to just the top few percentage of students. Now it's not at all unusual to have a school where 50% of the kids take an AP class. If it's just the very, very top students taking the classes, the teachers are only dealing with students who are coming into the class very prepared - they have the background knowledge, basic information, and academic speed to quickly move through the material, even without having to do a lot of pre-work over the summer.
When half the school is taking a class, though, the teachers need to be sure that all of the students are actually prepared to hit the ground running, so they have to give review work to make sure they don't loose the needed skills and enhancement work to make sure the students know the basic background info that might be required for that class.

 

[disfan07]

This may get me flamed, but... I wonder if some of the seeming expansion of summer work for AP classes is due to the fact that more and more kids are taking the classes.
In the 90s, AP classes were typically restricted to just the top few percentage of students. Now it's not at all unusual to have a school where 50% of the kids take an AP class. If it's just the very, very top students taking the classes, the teachers are only dealing with students who are coming into the class very prepared - they have the background knowledge, basic information, and academic speed to quickly move through the material, even without having to do a lot of pre-work over the summer.
When half the school is taking a class, though, the teachers need to be sure that all of the students are actually prepared to hit the ground running, so they have to give review work to make sure they don't loose the needed skills and enhancement work to make sure the students know the basic background info that might be required for that class.

Very true....I never thought of that. But I know that at my school, anyone could sign up for AP classes. A another school in our county, the counselors were under a lot of reassure to make sure that every student was enrolled in at least 1 AP class even if they were not academically able to handle it.

Luckily at our school, counselors did try and steer the students the right way and out of AP classes if they didn't think it was a good idea but they couldn't stop someone from registering for them.