Student Loans

[mom2rtk]

But where's the outrage for all the other things "you" have to pay for someone else?

Mortgage Interest Deduction?
Child Care Deduction?
Child Tax Credit?

Start a thread on it and we can discuss it.

 

[Colleen27]

So I guess you have never hear of union welders, boiler makers, electrician, plumbers.

Hell my sprinkler guy makes more than that in 8 months….

Oh yea this small airline you may not have heard called DELTA. STARTED HIRING pilot with a HS degree….

It my understanding the others if they haven’t already will need to follow suit soon.

Oh yea delta flight attendants make 58 bucks and hours after 10 years, so there is that…. The actually number of hours they get paid for varies based on how much they want to work, so yea …

It can be done.

Union being the key word up there. Less than 10% of US jobs are unionized, and I can assure you as someone who has been married 20 years to a construction tradesman, non-union skilled trades are not making six figures except perhaps in some very high COL areas. DH and most of the guys in his work-social circle make just a bit above the median income for full-time workers (not households), which is solidly mid-five-figures. And these are guys who have worked in their field for 10+ years.

Flight attendants are an interesting case. The hourly rate suggests a much higher annual income than they really earn because FAs are paid based on flight hours, not actual hours worked - they're not technically on the clock during boarding and deplaning, only while the aircraft doors are closed. So while they do make a high hourly rate once they've got some seniority, it doesn't work out to the annual income that wage would suggest to people used to calculating a 40hr week. I'm part of a pretty large women's travel group where a number of flight attendants are members, and they're quick to warn about the fact that the pay is quite low until you have quite a bit of seniority when other members inquire about becoming a FA as a means of supporting a travel-heavy lifestyle.

Again, you're taking exceptions and talking about them as if they're the norm. Yes, all of these things can be done... but they work specifically because they only apply to a minority of would-be workers or students. None of those exceptions makes the current system of unaffordable education supported by undischargable debt any more functional or sustainable.

 

[penn19]

Yes, but because of more workplace efficiencies, the number of ditch diggers needed has drastically dropped. So what should those "would be" ditch diggers do?

They can Code….

 

[mom2rtk]

Those can be discharged in bankruptcy.

Wouldn't it be a lot less to just change that policy then? Why jump to widespread forgiveness?

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Do you have a college degree?

If you were paying attention, you would know that answer.

 

[NotUrsula]

So what is the limiting principle here? If some is good, then a lot would be better, right? Let's just pay it all off.

And then just sit back and watch how fast the price of college skyrockets.

As with all things, moderation is the wisest course. You're arguing in favor of the impossibility of perfect making good not worth any bother at all.

We (collective we, the taxpayers of the US) can afford to contribute a small amount to help the rising tide to float more boats, and thus strengthen the fleet at large. We cannot afford to buy a brand new boat to replace every one in the fleet. It's a moderate response that does good. It's not perfect, but it does not need to be.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Union being the key word up there. Less than 10% of US jobs are unionized, and I can assure you as someone who has been married 20 years to a construction tradesman, non-union skilled trades are not making six figures except perhaps in some very high COL areas. DH and most of the guys in his work-social circle make just a bit above the median income for full-time workers (not households), which is solidly mid-five-figures. And these are guys who have worked in their field for 10+ years.

Flight attendants are an interesting case. The hourly rate suggests a much higher annual income than they really earn because FAs are paid based on flight hours, not actual hours worked - they're not technically on the clock during boarding and deplaning, only while the aircraft doors are closed. So while they do make a high hourly rate once they've got some seniority, it doesn't work out to the annual income that wage would suggest to people used to calculating a 40hr week. I'm part of a pretty large women's travel group where a number of flight attendants are members, and they're quick to warn about the fact that the pay is quite low until you have quite a bit of seniority when other members inquire about becoming a FA as a means of supporting a travel-heavy lifestyle.

Again, you're taking exceptions and talking about them as if they're the norm. Yes, all of these things can be done... but they work specifically because they only apply to a minority of would-be workers or students. None of those exceptions makes the current system of unaffordable education supported by undischargable debt any more functional or sustainable.

I would strongly suggest you move, or your husband work for himself.

Not sure what you mean by non skilled trades, as all the examples I gave are skilled.

Are you saying after 20 years in the trades your husband is still a laborer?

As far as the flight attendant pay goes I did say after 10 years. So yes, you have to pay your dues. The point is it is a career with no college degree or loans.

My original post was that it was possible to make $100,000 dollar per year without a college degree….

My point was an still is valid….

And yes it takes an exceptional person to do it. But it is not impossible it just takes someone willing to try. Anybody who applies themself can do it.

 

[LuvOrlando]

So I guess you have never hear of union welders, boiler makers, electrician, plumbers.

Hell my sprinkler guy makes more than that in 8 months….

Oh yea this small airline you may not have heard called DELTA. STARTED HIRING pilot with a HS degree….

It my understanding the others if they haven’t already will need to follow suit soon.

Oh yea delta flight attendants make 58 bucks and hours after 10 years, so there is that…. The actually number of hours they get paid for varies based on how much they want to work, so yea …

It can be done.

This isn't just your point of view, it's common and mentioned a lot throughout the thread, but at least you have a neat example to talk to so I guess it's a good way to show that it's doubtful people aren't considering your viewpoints. Trust me, noone is thrilled with this mess, I am not thrilled with it and the magnitude really only bubbled up into my viewfinder in 2020, probably true for many people. The people on here aren't a bunch of kids with our hands out, in fact, since it's mostly Disney fans chances are good most are upper income who will not only pay for our kids educations but know full well the check will be picked up by us and our families & you can bet we'd all much rather keep it but since that's not a likely outcome we've put aside aggravation and are considering the best solution for a problem that is, by and large not ours at face value.

Yes, these jobs exist, but there haven't been any shoutouts from unions to applicants in ages, at least none that I have seen or heard about in any schools. In fact, other than nurses, police & school union workers I don't really hear many young people in it anymore.

We raised our kids in a solid working class Union town and I am a diehard Union supporter because these organizations lifted an untold amount of families, especially immigrant families up and out of poverty for an exceedingly long time, and it was a huge way for the country to reabsorb veterans. The recipe was to find good solid young people who don't necessarily want to go the college route, provide them free post high school training and in exchange for an expectation of lifelong support these union workers got protection from the whims of owners etc. It was a slow lifelong process but there was a chance at improvement and for being a boss, of rising up with good hard work. Somewhere in the 90's and early 2000's the Unions were allowed to (or steered) towards shirking their responsibilities in pensions and went into the courts to get the OK to dump pensions as liabilities, it was a horrendous blow to the working class which hurt untold numbers of people and forced them into working poor retirement. Somehow the world didn't even blink as these people lost their security and jobs were dismantled and shipped off away from strongholds, and thousands of towns died, are still dead if they didn't or couldn't pivot (Roger & Me crystalized this particular mess). Unions matter and tradesmen (generic) were the backbone of this country and without them we have never been quite able to regain footing, too many people adrift to count

When I was in the PTA, talking to tons of moms whose kids started reg HS only to discover it's not their bag, well I tried desperately to get Unions into my kids high schools to pitch the story but simply couldn't get anyone on-board, well that's not quite right, the Unions mostly wanted to talk but the schools didn't want to host. There was nonsense about stepping on the toes of the Vo-tech but that was just laughable, the poor Vo-Tech people get so sidelined I bet they'd love a chance to steer (where was the school board I don't know). Why is there a rebuff? I'm not quite sure, but I bet you can't find many young people in these trades as Union workers, the people out and about are probably at least 25 years into it and training class sizes must be abysmal. Sure kids can learn in Vo-tech but Unions traditionally had independant training programs and you don't need Vo-Tech to get where they want you so there is really no conflict. Rebuilding Unions and their education programs is the easiest answer to many problems because, at least for now, we still have thousands of former Union Workers in the US that remember the system and can rebuild before it's forgotten. Still, rebuilding Unions for the next graduating class, even if it's overnight, won't stop todays dilemma.

I do hear you, that you feel resentful over the idea of supporting what you feel are personal choices, the trouble is that we are all on the same boat so if they sink, you and I do too. Did I love paying for the failed McMansion and Housing Speculation mess in 2008? Not at all because I knew interest-only was a terrible mistake, but that didn't stop it from happening or stop my family from being affected as my house value dipped and life stagnated, not to mention how our school district was wrecked by the credit swap idiocy, but I digress. With the student loan issue, I didn't go to one of these fancy schools and had no loans, but really that is not the point, I'm not thinking about my own personal story and am pushing my irritation to the side and considering the big picture. The point is while you consider how nice that bowl of vengeance will taste as you watch the kids squirm remember that 90% of the proceeds of the hits Americans stand to take will likely end up in the hands US enemies who will not only delight in inflicting harm but will use use all that money to damage us, and we'll STILL need to pay to defend in the end. Doing nothing really only ensures the loss be exponentially bigger, I don't want ANY loss but will settle for minimizing it.

The rest of the jobs you describe, sure some do exist but not quite enough for the millions of people out there. There are airlines but how many jobs can you count, surely not millions, we are a country of 332 million, that is a lot of jobs. When I graduated HS people could get regular jobs that paid well, there were secretaries everywhere, no software so tons of bookkeepers, court reporters, mechanics and appliance people who would just tinker for a living, construction union was booming and there were really too many jobs like this to count. I'm not sure where the jobs went but I do think the volume of people still trying to rebuild from 2008 and the volume of Baby Boomers who still need their jobs in order to pay for medical care and medicine have a great deal to do with that lack of turnover. Best as I can tell, people who lost out in the 2008 crisis are STILL paying back and STILL trying to rebuild their retirement accounts meanwhile Social Security pays just enough to cover Medicare so if a person didn't get around to paying off a house with enough left over to pay property taxes and live on in old age, well then that person will not be giving up a good job willingly so now those spots just aren't opening up to turnover for young people who want their own success. It is unacceptable to fault another person for wanting a nice life for themselves and their families, it is after all the American Dream, is it not? What is happening is a complex issue, there is no right and wrong to my mind & noone to blame, we all just need to play the hand we are dealt so we can all win. Getting as many Americans paying as much as possible in taxes is the only win I can see on the board. You can be angry if you want but the reality is, just like in 2008, there is no way we are all not going to end up paying to clean it up one way or the other, I'd just prefer a controlled solution and to have as many people paying in as possible.

In the end the only real solution is demanding our leaders close off all these horrible loopholes that keep leading to the same path of destruction because we may not see the next big mess but I would bet anything someone somewhere already spun it out of a hellmouth and it is already in process. We need to nip this exploitation in the bud or it will just keep happening.

Still, stay mad if you want, it's a free country, but it won't change anything we'll all still get a bill in a year or two.

 

[sam_gordon]

My original post was that it was possible to make $100,000 dollar per year without a college degree….

My point was an still is valid….

And again, go back through the thread and find where someone said it was IMPOSSIBLE. No one's doubting it's possible. The point is it's rare. You even say it takes an "exceptional person". That's the point. How many "exceptional" people are out there? Can't be many. If everyone's "exceptional", then no one is.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Yep, I misspoke between commercial pilot and ATP. So you try to bust my balls for only talking about some things, how about you? As I said earlier and you took offense to, but can't counter, WHY do you think these "six figure jobs" for someone with only a HS degree are paying that? Could it be they're having problems filling the roles? Could it be there's SOMETHING, whether that be hours, training, time away from home, that makes it not attractive to the majority? Which brings me back to my question... *IF* these "six figure jobs" are so plentiful and easy to get, why don't more people go after those jobs?

And how many "corporate" FA positions are out there? Silly me, when you brought up FA's, I assumed you were talking commercial.

Is not that I couldn’t counter it.
It didn’t need to be countered.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

If you want to be a Dr or lawyer you have to pay the bill….. go to college for 7 years rack up a ton of debt and pay it off!
OH Drs. Have the world worst schedule for idk the first half of there career. Lawyers may not be in the office or the court room on weekends, but I promise you until you make partner you are working.

I did say Delta flight attendants, and I also said it take 10 years….

The point is for someone that can’t afford to go to school, can’t get any type of grants, scholarships, there are other options that other a lot of money.

I’m sorry if skill labors don’t make much where you live. However, for those that want to try, there are other avenues to success.

All you have to do is try.

Why more people aren’t getting these jobs…..

It is easier to cry help me, pay off my loans from the horrible school, than it is to apply yourself, take responsibility for yourself, and make something of yourself.

The problem is that the system have given to much away already, and people except to get more and work less….

It is a very dangerous path that leaves to everyone with there hand out, and no one capable of doing anything for themself.

It like a bad drug addiction!

 

[TLSnell1981]

We (collective we, the taxpayers of the US) can afford to contribute a small amount to help the rising tide to float more boats, and thus strengthen the fleet at large. We cannot afford to buy a brand new boat to replace every one in the fleet. It's a moderate response that does good. It's not perfect, but it does not need to be.
No we can not afford it. At some point some folks need to learn to make better personal choices or accept the consequences.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

And again, go back through the thread and find where someone said it was IMPOSSIBLE. No one's doubting it's possible. The point is it's rare. You even say it takes an "exceptional person". That's the point. How many "exceptional" people are out there? Can't be many. If everyone's "exceptional", then no one is.

I’m sorry, I miss understood your comment to imply just that

 

[mjkacmom]

Is not that I couldn’t counter it.
It didn’t need to be countered.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

If you want to be a Dr or lawyer you have to pay the bill….. go to college for 7 years rack up a ton of debt and pay it off!
OH Drs. Have the world worst schedule for idk the first half of there career. Lawyers may not be in the office or the court room on weekends, but I promise you until you make partner you are working.

I did say Delta flight attendants, and I also said it take 10 years….

The point is for someone that can’t afford to go to school, can’t get any type of grants, scholarships, there are other options that other a lot of money.

I’m sorry if skill labors don’t make much where you live. However, for those that want to try, there are other avenues to success.

All you have to do is try.

Why more people aren’t getting these jobs…..

It is easier to cry help me, pay off my loans from the horrible school, than it is to apply yourself, take responsibility for yourself, and make something of yourself.

The problem is that the system have given to much away already, and people except to get more and work less….

It is a very dangerous path that leaves to everyone with there hand out, and no one capable of doing anything for themself.

It like a bad drug addiction!

You probably don’t realize it, but going to college doesn’t mean paying a bill and getting grades, it’s hard work. In order to even get into medical school, you need to have an amazing gpa (most students don’t end up going to medical school because it’s so competitive). I expect my kids will be making 6 figures by 30 the latest, near the beginning of their careers, not the end. Their retirement accounts that they start contributing to (along with their employers) started right after graduation. I was just talking to my plumber (he owns the business), he encouraged his kids to go to college so their salaries go up hopefully (he makes pretty much the same every year after 40 years), plus the job that was easy for a young man is no longer physically easy. My husband most likely makes more money, is younger, and his job is EASIER (he works from home and has a lot of meetings).

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

At some point some folks need to learn to make better personal choices or accept the consequences.

Now apply that towards the industry as a whole including tuition costs, revamp financial aid, regulate for profit schools, because we apparently don't really care about the consequences when it comes to those things.

Like it or not the culpability does not lie on individuals as if they are the sole issue here or even the biggest issue.

 

[leeniewdw]

I have very mixed emotions on this and I'm sure it's been expressed somewhere here in the 30 pages (I did read a number of pages but not all), but Forgiveness with out changes to the system that got people to this point seems like...dumb?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Yep, I misspoke between commercial pilot and ATP. So you try to bust my balls for only talking about some things, how about you? As I said earlier and you took offense to, but can't counter, WHY do you think these "six figure jobs" for someone with only a HS degree are paying that? Could it be they're having problems filling the roles? Could it be there's SOMETHING, whether that be hours, training, time away from home, that makes it not attractive to the majority? Which brings me back to my question... *IF* these "six figure jobs" are so plentiful and easy to get, why don't more people go after those jobs?

And how many "corporate" FA positions are out there? Silly me, when you brought up FA's, I assumed you were talking commercial.

Even before Covid there were worries in the aviation industry that many pilots were approaching retirement age and needed to be replaced. Then Covid happened and the airline and travel industries tanked. Like a lot of older healthcare workers, I imagine that many of those pilots decided then was a good time for retirement, even if they had been planning on staying on for a while previously. Many smaller airports also had lay offs and such during the pandemic. Some of their younger pilots may have moved on to other jobs. It does take a lot of flying hours, often at crap pay for a long time (years), before pilots can move on to fly larger aircraft. (Don’t know exact terminology but it is something I have a little familiarity with.)

 

[Robbie Cottam]

You probably don’t realize it, but going to college doesn’t mean paying a bill and getting grades, it’s hard work. In order to even get into medical school, you need to have an amazing gpa (most students don’t end up going to medical school because it’s so competitive). I expect my kids will be making 6 figures by 30 the latest, near the beginning of their careers, not the end. Their retirement accounts that they start contributing to (along with their employers) started right after graduation. I was just talking to my plumber (he owns the business), he encouraged his kids to go to college so their salaries go up hopefully (he makes pretty much the same every year after 40 years), plus the job that was easy for a young man is no longer physically easy. My husband most likely makes more money, is younger, and his job is EASIER (he works from home and has a lot of meetings).

Actually, you are wrong !

Going to college does mean paying the bill and getting good grades. If you don’t do either of those things they kick you out….

Yes, I agree and I know it takes hard work.

I have a lot friends that are MDs I have heard the stories. But there hard work didn’t stop when they go to med school it got harder.

By they all either got scholarships, grants, or loans. They then paid off those loans or had them forgiven via the programs that others have claimed don’t work.

That’s how it should work! YOU BORROW MONEY YOU PAY IT BACK. Either in service or cash.

You don’t cry woe is me, I made a bad decision and I need the government to bail me out!

At the current rate of inflation the kids saying “you want fries with that” will be making 6 figures by thanksgiving. So you kids so be able to make it well before their 30s.

But I’m going to call bs on your plumber story. If he is making the same thing now, that he made 40 years ago, that just doesn’t hold water.

 

[mjkacmom]

Actually, you are wrong !

Going to college does mean paying the bill and getting good grades. If you don’t do either of those things they kick you out….

Yes, I agree and I know it takes hard work.

I have a lot friends that are MDs I have heard the stories. But there hard work didn’t stop when they go to med school it got harder.

By they all either got scholarships, grants, or loans. They then paid off those loans or had them forgiven via the programs that others have claimed don’t work.

That’s how it should work! YOU BORROW MONEY YOU PAY IT BACK. Either in service or cash.

You don’t cry woe is me, I made a bad decision and I need the government to bail me out!

At the current rate of inflation the kids saying “you want fries with that” will be making 6 figures by thanksgiving. So you kids so be able to make it well before their 30s.

But I’m going to call bs on your plumber story. If he is making the same thing now, that he made 40 years ago, that just doesn’t hold water.

Why don’t you believe me? He does A job that others do as well, he can’t just give himself a yearly raise and bonus, his earning potential is finite. He feels he did well without a college degree but he doesn’t get unlimited vacation/sick days where he gets paid even if he doesn’t work, the older he gets the harder it is. He’s also having a hard time finding workers, and if you work in a trade, you need to be the owner. My husband can physically do his job forever since it’s not physically taxing. Fortunately his NYU MBA was paid for by his company but I don’t know if this is still a benefit. FYI, I’m not for loan forgiveness, I’m in favor of affordable public universities like we had a few decades ago. The students attending $80,000 a year universities are not the ones struggling with loans.

 

[wvjules]

Actually, you are wrong !

Going to college does mean paying the bill and getting good grades. If you don’t do either of those things they kick you out….

Yes, I agree and I know it takes hard work.

I have a lot friends that are MDs I have heard the stories. But there hard work didn’t stop when they go to med school it got harder.

By they all either got scholarships, grants, or loans. They then paid off those loans or had them forgiven via the programs that others have claimed don’t work.

That’s how it should work! YOU BORROW MONEY YOU PAY IT BACK. Either in service or cash.

You don’t cry woe is me, I made a bad decision and I need the government to bail me out!

At the current rate of inflation the kids saying “you want fries with that” will be making 6 figures by thanksgiving. So you kids so be able to make it well before their 30s.

But I’m going to call bs on your plumber story. If he is making the same thing now, that he made 40 years ago, that just doesn’t hold water.

How many people do you think took loans with the intent of never paying it back?