standardized testing

[Goofyluver]

They take them seriously now though. About a month ago I had to have a meeting with DD's 1st grade teacher. DD had taken three standardized reading tests and tested at grade level on all but one section of one test so the teacher wanted to put her in Title I remedial reading.

I did a lot of research on the Dibels test and found it is very controversial and the section she failed is even more controversial. They basically give the kids a list of nonsense words and give them one minute to read them as fast as they can. If they sound the words out they don't count it. The teacher told me the reason she did poorly on that section was because she was sounding the words out and trying to assign meaning to what she was reading which of course she couldn't do because the words didn't mean anything. After discussing it with some other teachers I decided not to put her in Title I and told her teacher we would work with her more at home and if she didn't improve we would revisit the issue at a later date. I don't think she was too happy with that.

Totally OT, but I did my graduate research project on the DIBELS, and you are so right.



As for standardized testing, I'm a public school employee. Here's what I've always told my kid: "Do your best. Answer the questions that you know the answer to correctly. If you don't know the answer, put C."

 

[Gumbo4x4]

They are a fairly good barometer of how well kids take standardized tests.

Which is of itself a fairly good barometer of achievement. Is it the be all, end all? Of course not. But at some point, some sort of standard has to be applied. And as I said before, it's no huge coincidence that the kids who ace these tests are "in general" the same ones who do well on tests all year.

 

[Turn the Page]

Totally OT, but I did my graduate research project on the DIBELS, and you are so right.



As for standardized testing, I'm a public school employee. Here's what I've always told my kid: "Do your best. Answer the questions that you know the answer to correctly. If you don't know the answer, put C."

Excellent. Could you please explain to me what the purpose of the nonsense word section is? I can't imagine how much some of those kids would struggle with that anyway. Heck, if someone handed me a list of made up words and told me to read as many as I could in a minute and I'm not allowed to sound them out I would probably hand the list back to them and say "no, I'm not doing that because it's ridiculous."

 

[UConnFan]

Excellent. Could you please explain to me what the purpose of the nonsense word section is? I can't imagine how much some of those kids would struggle with that anyway. Heck, if someone handed me a list of made up words and told me to read as many as I could in a minute and I'm not allowed to sound them out I would probably hand the list back to them and say "no, I'm not doing that because it's ridiculous."

The nonsense word section assesses a student's ability to decode a word. They have to use phonics skills instead of relying on memorized words to read nonsense words.

I actually take the most issue with the retell section of the DIBELS (although I think the whole test is bunk).

 

[Turn the Page]

The nonsense word section assesses a student's ability to decode a word. They have to use phonics skills instead of relying on memorized words to read nonsense words.

I actually take the most issue with the retell section of the DIBELS (although I think the whole test is bunk).

Ok. I can understand that part. But why not allow them to sound out unfamiliar words?

I just don't understand the logic of the test. They are taught to sound out unfamiliar words and try to assign meaning to what they are reading all year long in class and then are put into a testing situation where they are given things to read and told not to do anything they have been taught to do when reading. How are any of them supposed to do well on it?

 

[AverageDiser]

The worst thing about this testing is that it is not benefitting any student on any level. My dd is taking algebra this year, maintaining a low A average, and literally all I hear about (from her advisor) is whether she can pass the SOL. This is an 11 yr old taking advanced math and obviously doing well, but the advisor is only worried about how it will reflect back on her. It drives me crazy. Last year they made her take the 5th and 6th grade english SOL because even though she had skipped 5th grade english, they wanted her score. Luckily this year they won't be able to do that. In our district they stop teaching new material in mid-March to start SOL reviews.

If anyone wants to get further involved most states have groups trying to change the situation. Just google parents against standardized testing and your state name.

 

[Erin1700]

My DD is in middle school this year and she hasn't said much about preparing for the tests. In elementary school they did the pep rally's, tshirts, prizes, etc. I thought it was crazy.

I have never made a big deal about the tests so she doesn't get nervous about them.

Funny everyone brings up DIBLES. DD scores really high on those. DS6 in kindergarten, just started taking them I honestly expected him to do poorly but he did very well. I think they are silly!

 

[Turn the Page]

I don't know that I am against all standardized testing. But my DD is in first grade and already this year she has had to take four standardized reading tests. She took the DIBELS twice I think, the DHA, and the NWEA. These are all reading tests. Lord only knows what other tests they make her take that I don't even know about. That seems like overkill for 1st graders.

 

[Turn the Page]

My DD is in middle school this year and she hasn't said much about preparing for the tests. In elementary school they did the pep rally's, tshirts, prizes, etc. I thought it was crazy.

I have never made a big deal about the tests so she doesn't get nervous about them.

Funny everyone brings up DIBLES. DD scores really high on those. DS6 in kindergarten, just started taking them I honestly expected him to do poorly but he did very well. I think they are silly!

My DD scored in the 75th percentile in the oral reading section, right on grade level in another section, and only 12th percentile on the nonsense word section.

However, she also scored right on grade level in the DHA and the NWEA. Her teacher told me she had scored poorly on that one section of the test because she was sounding the words out like she had been taught to do which meant they couldn't count it and she was trying to understand what she is reading which is a higher level function. Well if she is trying to perform at a higher level why do you want to throw her in Title 1?

 

[Erin1700]

Oh I forgot this part - DD struggles with spelling. She can not spell to save her life. When I finally had enough of hours and hours of studying spelling with a 10 yr old, I asked the teacher for help.

The teacher and guidance counselor told me 2 things.
1. "gifted kids are poor spellers"
2. "we are not too worried about it, spelling hardly counts on PSSAs"

It was then that I considered moving to a new school district. But here we stay with no help with our spelling issues!

 

[Erin1700]

My DD scored in the 75th percentile in the oral reading section, right on grade level in another section, and only 12th percentile on the nonsense word section.

However, she also scored right on grade level in the DHA and the NWEA. Her teacher told me she had scored poorly on that one section of the test because she was sounding the words out like she had been taught to do which meant they couldn't count it and she was trying to understand what she is reading which is a higher level function. Well if she is trying to perform at a higher level why do you want to throw her in Title 1?

There is no way that my son did not sound out those words. No way. He scored very high on all parts. Clearly they do not all follow the rules in grading.
You did the right thing!

 

[Turn the Page]

Oh I forgot this part - DD struggles with spelling. She can not spell to save her life. When I finally had enough of hours and hours of studying spelling with a 10 yr old, I asked the teacher for help.

The teacher and guidance counselor told me 2 things.
1. "gifted kids are poor spellers"
2. "we are not too worried about it, spelling hardly counts on PSSAs"

It was then that I considered moving to a new school district. But here we stay with no help with our spelling issues!

Gifted kids are poor spellers? While I admit I am not going to win any spelling bees any time soon my spelling is generally just fine. Did they give a reason why gifted kids are poor spellers?

 

[tvguy]

I don't see it as any big deal.
My kids went to Private (for profit) schools (4 different ones) K-8, and they have done the tests for years to show that they are educating kids. For them it's a marketing tool too.
My kids went to Catholic High school, same drill.

I don't even think this is a policial issue (which would be forbidden on these boards) since Democrats and Republicans support it, as have the past 2 Presidents.
For Teachers, it's just like the job evaluation many of us non-teachers get at work, the ones that determine if we still have a job, and what if any pay raise will get.

 

[Turn the Page]

There is no way that my son did not sound out those words. No way. He scored very high on all parts. Clearly they do not all follow the rules in grading.
You did the right thing!

Apparently they don't all follow the same rules. How can you compare scores if they aren't all tested the same way?

The whole process was very strange. The classroom teacher kept telling me that it wasn't a big deal and she has so many kids being pulled out for remedial work throughout the day that DD is one of the very few kids who isn't being pulled out so it could be like a special treat for her. Ummm....yeah remedial work is not a special treat it is a cause for concern and if almost all of the kids in your class are being pulled out for something that may be a sign that you're a crappy teacher.

The Title I teacher informed me that this was actually a good thing that she did poorly on this section of the test because now we can label her Title I and then she can be pulled out to start working on stuff that is a few levels above the reading level she is at now. The Title I teacher also very helpfully explained that she used to do that with the advanced readers but they had been audited by the state and she got in trouble for it so now she can't pull any kids out unless they are labeled Title I.

The whole scenario just seemed very strange to me.

 

[Erin1700]

Gifted kids are poor spellers? While I admit I am not going to win any spelling bees any time soon my spelling is generally just fine. Did they give a reason why gifted kids are poor spellers?

Something along the lines of the list is too long and taxing their brain?
She did have some characteristics of just memorizing and not knowing how the phonics worked to spell the word. Like she knew if the list had 12 words that ended in le. So if she had only 11, one was wrong. Or how she could spell words correctly if they were given in order of the list but not mixed up.

My sons teacher this year actually made some sense when we spoke about it. My DD never sounded words out as a kid, like my son does. She just knew how to read from a young age. So the teacher said she worked backwards. Learned phonics after she knew to read.

But really, how gifted can you be if you are in 6th grade and still spell which as wich, between as beetween and maybe as maybye. And the hours it takes to learn spelling lists!! I tried looking into a visual processing disorder but they think I am nuts.

 

[Turn the Page]

Something along the lines of the list is too long and taxing their brain?
She did have some characteristics of just memorizing and not knowing how the phonics worked to spell the word. Like she knew if the list had 12 words that ended in le. So if she had only 11, one was wrong. Or how she could spell words correctly if they were given in order of the list but not mixed up.

My sons teacher this year actually made some sense when we spoke about it. My DD never sounded words out as a kid, like my son does. She just knew how to read from a young age. So the teacher said she worked backwards. Learned phonics after she knew to read.

But really, how gifted can you be if you are in 6th grade and still spell which as wich, between as beetween and maybe as maybye. And the hours it takes to learn spelling lists!! I tried looking into a visual processing disorder but they think I am nuts.

Yeah I am calling BS on that one. I mean you can be gifted in different areas. For example, you could be gifted in math but not reading or something like that. But I find it really hard to believe that if she is a gifted reader she can't spell. I could believe someone gifted in math wouldn't be a very good speller but a gifted reader? No. Not so much.

What makes them think she is gifted?

 

[AverageDiser]

Something along the lines of the list is too long and taxing their brain?
She did have some characteristics of just memorizing and not knowing how the phonics worked to spell the word. Like she knew if the list had 12 words that ended in le. So if she had only 11, one was wrong. Or how she could spell words correctly if they were given in order of the list but not mixed up.

My sons teacher this year actually made some sense when we spoke about it. My DD never sounded words out as a kid, like my son does. She just knew how to read from a young age. So the teacher said she worked backwards. Learned phonics after she knew to read.

But really, how gifted can you be if you are in 6th grade and still spell which as wich, between as beetween and maybe as maybye. And the hours it takes to learn spelling lists!! I tried looking into a visual processing disorder but they think I am nuts.

Gifted education in public schools for years defined giftedness as talent in maths and sciences, period, which is part of where the whole "gifted kids can't spell" thing came from. A lot of kids gifted in stem subjects, may be more average in humanities. Being gifted doesn't necessarily mean great at every subject. More schools are recognizing children gifted in humanities now, but they are still in the minority.

 

[Erin1700]

Yeah I am calling BS on that one. I mean you can be gifted in different areas. For example, you could be gifted in math but not reading or something like that. But I find it really hard to believe that if she is a gifted reader she can't spell. I could believe someone gifted in math wouldn't be a very good speller but a gifted reader? No. Not so much.

What makes them think she is gifted?

Since you asked, I will answer.
She passed all of their testing to be in the gifted program.
Has an IQ that is very very high.
Has always read years above where she should.
Report card grades usually are 100.


So they claim spelling is just the thing she isn't good at. I said there are a few things she is not good at but that is different than this spelling issue. Grammar doesn't come easy to her but she gets it quickly.


See why I think there is an underlying issue? But it doesnt matter to them because it isn't on the standardized test!

 

[Erin1700]

Gifted education in public schools for years defined giftedness as talent in maths and sciences, period, which is part of where the whole "gifted kids can't spell" thing came from. A lot of kids gifted in stem subjects, may be more average in humanities. Being gifted doesn't necessarily mean great at every subject. More schools are recognizing children gifted in humanities now, but they are still in the minority.

Her area where she shows being gifted in something most is actually public speaking! Not sure where she got that, the milkman maybe!

 

[Turn the Page]

Since you asked, I will answer.
She passed all of their testing to be in the gifted program.
Has an IQ that is very very high.
Has always read years above where she should.
Report card grades usually are 100.


So they claim spelling is just the thing she isn't good at. I said there are a few things she is not good at but that is different than this spelling issue. Grammar doesn't come easy to her but she gets it quickly.


See why I think there is an underlying issue? But it doesnt matter to them because it isn't on the standardized test!

Ok. Yeah, I would agree there is something else going on. As a previous poster mentioned in the past only kids gifted in math and science were recognized as gifted were not necessarily gifted readers also so that is where the gifted kids are poor spellers thing came from.

Is there somewhere else you could take her to be evaluated for the spelling issue perhaps? They may know better how to help her with her spelling.