shutter speed question

[TheGoofster]

Right now I'm in the process of trying to relearn a lot of what I used to know about photography, especially about the differences between a SLR and a DSLR.

The question I have right now is about shutter speed. I remember when I used to shoot with my SLR that the general rule of thumb was that 1/60 of a second was about as low as you wanted to comfortably go when holding a camera. If you were really steady you could probably get away with 1/30 of a second, but that was pushing it.
While looking through some shots taken on DSLR's and the exif information, I've seen some nice shots that people say were taken by hand, with shutter speeds as low as 1/10 of a second.
So how does shutter speed compare to SLR's and DSLR's? Is there a general rule about how low you can go with a shutter speed, and still get a nice hand-held shot?

I don't have my DSLR camera yet (hopefully in about a month I will, but I am trying to get a jump about learning about it), so I can' actually test it myself yet.

Again, thanks for any information.

 

[VVFF]

Right now I'm in the process of trying to relearn a lot of what I used to know about photography, especially about the differences between a SLR and a DSLR.

The question I have right now is about shutter speed. I remember when I used to shoot with my SLR that the general rule of thumb was that 1/60 of a second was about as low as you wanted to comfortably go when holding a camera. If you were really steady you could probably get away with 1/30 of a second, but that was pushing it.
While looking through some shots taken on DSLR's and the exif information, I've seen some nice shots that people say were taken by hand, with shutter speeds as low as 1/10 of a second.
So how does shutter speed compare to SLR's and DSLR's? Is there a general rule about how low you can go with a shutter speed, and still get a nice hand-held shot?

I don't have my DSLR camera yet (hopefully in about a month I will, but I am trying to get a jump about learning about it), so I can' actually test it myself yet.

Again, thanks for any information.

General rule of thumb:

shutter speed = 1/(focal length*crop factor)

Crop factor is the relative size of the sensor on your DSLR vs. a full frame sensor.

You then can add in stops of image stabilization if you have that on your lens or body. So here's two examples, one for a 100mm lens on a Canon 50D w/3-4 stops IS and a 17mm lens on a Canon 5D w/ no IS:

1/(100*1.6) = 1/160th a second + 3-4 stops IS = 1/20-1/10th a second longest shutter speed.

1/(17*1) = 1/17th a second + 0 stops IS = 1/17th a second.

So both these lenses you could shoot at approximately the same slowest shutter speed.

Hope that helps.

 

[TheGoofster]

General rule of thumb:

shutter speed = 1/(focal length*crop factor)

Crop factor is the relative size of the sensor on your DSLR vs. a full frame sensor.

You then can add in stops of image stabilization if you have that on your lens or body. So here's two examples, one for a 100mm lens on a Canon 50D w/3-4 stops IS and a 17mm lens on a Canon 5D w/ no IS:

1/(100*1.6) = 1/160th a second + 3-4 stops IS = 1/20-1/10th a second longest shutter speed.

1/(17*1) = 1/17th a second + 0 stops IS = 1/17th a second.

So both these lenses you could shoot at approximately the same slowest shutter speed.

Hope that helps.

Wow, my brain just went Pop!

OK, let me see if I get this right (which I probably don't), and perhaps you can help me understand it better.

The camera I plan on getting is the Nikon D3000. The lens it comes with is the VR 18-55mm lens.

So, in order to find how low I can get the shutter speed on a hand-held shot, I need to take:

1/(18 (the shortest focal length) * 3.5 (which is the aperture listed (actually it's 3.5 - 5.6) = 1/63 + 3 stops. I'm sorry but I don't really understand how to factor in the stops.

From what I do understand of this equation without the stops, I would be able to get around a 1/60th of a second shutter speed (Very similar to what it was on my older SLR camera). But when I add in the stops to the equation it should drop quite a bit lower.

 

[Chikabowa]

OK... I learned shutter speed a TOTALLY different way.

Take the lowest focal length of your lens and double it. Safely, that is the lowest you want to go with that particular lens.

So if you are shooting with a 50mm, theoretically, you don't want your shutter to drop less that 1/100.
If you are shooting with a 24-70mm lens, you don't want your shutter to drop down below 1/50.
With a 70-200mm (without VR or IS) you don't want to drop that shutter below, 1/140

That's the rule of thumb that I learned and in most cases it works just fine.

Now that is completely blown out of the water if you have someone with shaking hands or if you have someone with steady hands. Me in particular, I have very steady hands and strong arms. So I can hand-hold a D3 + 24-70 f2.8 + Sb-800 + Pocket Wizard down to 1/13 of a second. Any lower and I get camera shake. But I have an extremely practiced/steady hand so it works for me.

So that is how I always learned it.

 

[zackiedawg]

You're former rule of thumb is still a decent one, and should still apply. VVFF's rules are quite good if you want to go into further detail based on the lens being used - this will really start to make a difference as you get to longer lenses which will require a bit more shutter speed to hold steady. In general though, 1/60 is a pretty good rule of thumb for an average shooter in a proper stance.

Image stabilization can make up anywhere from 1-4 stops, depending on the system and also on your own stability. Slight vibrational movements are easier to correct than larger flinches or moves just as the shutter is firing...so folks without steady stances or holds on their camera might find trouble even with stabilization at too slow a shutter speed. Others can easily handhold at 1/30 without any stabilization...so with stabilization, it's not unheard of to reach 1/2 second or 1 second handheld with good results (I can pull off 1/2 second without too much trouble, and am about 50% at 1 second...on rare occasions, I've done 2 seconds handheld).

Most important is to have a good stance, good grip, and good technique when handholding slow shutter shots, with or without stabilization. Good reverse tension on your grip with both hands, relaxed elbows resting against the chest, viewfinder resting comfortably to the eye, stance spread out with one foot slightly forward and wide, half-press shutter to focus and lock, and a nice slow exhale before fully pressing the shutter.

I don't much worry about the calculations anymore, as much as I just go by feel...I decide based on how steady I think I'll be able to hold the camera, do a quick estimation on the 1-3 stops of stabilization, and decide if I'll need extra support or not. After running or walking around a bunch in a hot environment, I may not have quite as steady a stance as when I'm relaxed and cool, and have been rested before shooting.

 

[VVFF]

Wow, my brain just went Pop!

OK, let me see if I get this right (which I probably don't), and perhaps you can help me understand it better.

The camera I plan on getting is the Nikon D3000. The lens it comes with is the VR 18-55mm lens.

So, in order to find how low I can get the shutter speed on a hand-held shot, I need to take:

1/(18 (the shortest focal length) * 3.5 (which is the aperture listed (actually it's 3.5 - 5.6) = 1/63 + 3 stops. I'm sorry but I don't really understand how to factor in the stops.

From what I do understand of this equation without the stops, I would be able to get around a 1/60th of a second shutter speed (Very similar to what it was on my older SLR camera). But when I add in the stops to the equation it should drop quite a bit lower.

Aperture is not involved is this calculation. You are using a variable focal length lens. This means the shutter speed needed will vary depending on zoom. I believe the kit lens for Nikon has about 3 stops of IS. So...

At 18mm 1/(18*1.5) = 1/27s + 3 stops of IS = 1/3rd a second(I find lenses with 3 stops of IS are a little less than 3 stops so I would aim for 1/6th a second)

at 55mm 1/(55*1.5) = 1/82.5s + 3 stops of IS = 1/10th a second(I'd use 1/15th to back a bit off the 3 stops of IS)

Now again, these are guidelines. I recommend trying to shoot at these shutter speeds and see if the results you get are good. People's steadiness varies so you'll have to find where yours lies. I do find those values I quoted to be about the limits for me. So it does work well. If you steady your arms on anything you might be able to push this even farther.

EDIT: Forgot to explain "stops". A "stop" is a halving of shutter speed. So 3 stops of IS is (1/2)*3 = 1/8th the normal shutter needed. Same thing that ISO does. Increasing ISO one stop(i.e. 200->400) allows you to use a shutter speed that is two times faster at the identical aperture.

 

[Mckymousefn]

Ok, I have a Canon EOS 50D... last night i was trying to shoot pictures at a vollyball game. I had never shot in a gym before and was having a difficult time with out things going blurry. I have done football games... which are outside and baseball... and didn't have a problem with the pics, but the gym lighting threw it off. Any suggestions on that??

 

[VVFF]

Ok, I have a Canon EOS 50D... last night i was trying to shoot pictures at a vollyball game. I had never shot in a gym before and was having a difficult time with out things going blurry. I have done football games... which are outside and baseball... and didn't have a problem with the pics, but the gym lighting threw it off. Any suggestions on that??

Inside lighting is often much lower than light outside. Also volleyball is a bit faster paced if you don't want the ball to be blurred you will need a very fast shutter speed.

 

[MICKEY88]

Ok, I have a Canon EOS 50D... last night i was trying to shoot pictures at a vollyball game. I had never shot in a gym before and was having a difficult time with out things going blurry. I have done football games... which are outside and baseball... and didn't have a problem with the pics, but the gym lighting threw it off. Any suggestions on that??

you either need a fast lens,,, high iso, a good external flash.. or a combination of the 3

 

[Groucho]

Don't forget that image stabilization, as great as it is, is only helpful when shooting something that isn't moving... it won't do much good when shooting action sports, for example.

 

[Mckymousefn]

Well, here is what i have as far as lens.... I have Canon EOS 50D (which i just got), Canon Ultrasounic 70-300mm with IS and Canon Ultrasonic 28-135mm with IS. For an extral flash i have an Olmpus digital flash (from camera i had before this one) FL-36.

 

[VVFF]

Well, here is what i have as far as lens.... I have Canon EOS 50D (which i just got), Canon Ultrasounic 70-300mm with IS and Canon Ultrasonic 28-135mm with IS. For an extral flash i have an Olmpus digital flash (from camera i had before this one) FL-36.

Both those lenses are relatively slow on their long end. You probably will want to look for a fast prime in a telephoto focal length or at least a F2.8 zoom.

 

[IndyShutterbug]

As others have stated, the wider the lens, the easier to capture in low light situations. When shooting inside sports, especially gym settings, the lights can help. They can also hurt. If mono-lights aren't allowed, I bump up the iso, and shoot at wide open. I find that my 70-200 2.8 is great, but I still at least shoot at 800, if not 1600 iso. Also, if allowed, a monopod is a great tool. A manfrotto can be had for under $50 dollars and is invaluable. When I shoot football games, I always use the telephoto on the monopod and then a backup with a zoom on a black rapid strap.
I also have the 28-135 IS, and while it is not a preferred indoor lens, it is a great daily walk around lens. Just watch out for the lens creep.

 

[YesDear]

To the original poster

The simple answer to your question is as others have said is that your rule of thumb is probably a great starting place with a DSLR. New technologies like VR and IS can provide you lower shutter speeds, but....

The bottom line for anything shutter speed is like Susan (Chickabowa)said, it depends on how steady you are with your given configuration.

Susan, maybe we should have have a photo meet and you can give zen breathing lessons and arm exercises for slow shutter speeds! Or as we always say.... practice, practice, practice! Oh to be young again!

 

[Chikabowa]

Susan, maybe we should have have a photo meet and you can give zen breathing lessons and arm exercises for slow shutter speeds! Or as we always say.... practice, practice, practice! Oh to be young again!

Hee hee.
Totally off topic... but when I first got married, my father in law took me out to the gun range to teach me how to shoot. I'd never picked up a gun before that time (I was about 24 at the time, almost 31 now). Anyway, handed me all these guns and I just started shooting as he instructed. Well, not only did I hit the targets, but they were all pretty close bulls-eye clusters. My father in law decided that day to become one of my best buddies - and to this day we hang out all the time together.

I think a lot of it just comes from practice. But learning how to exhale, hold your arms close, and then just freeze up while you take the shot is the big secret.

 

[YesDear]

I think a lot of it just comes from practice. But learning how to exhale, hold your arms close, and then just freeze up while you take the shot is the big secret.

And the real challenge is to learn to do that when you are under stress and you have to get the shot!
But you must be calm grasshopper!

 

[annnewjerz]

Hee hee.
Totally off topic... but when I first got married, my father in law took me out to the gun range to teach me how to shoot. I'd never picked up a gun before that time (I was about 24 at the time, almost 31 now). Anyway, handed me all these guns and I just started shooting as he instructed. Well, not only did I hit the targets, but they were all pretty close bulls-eye clusters. My father in law decided that day to become one of my best buddies - and to this day we hang out all the time together.

I think a lot of it just comes from practice. But learning how to exhale, hold your arms close, and then just freeze up while you take the shot is the big secret.

That gun story is too funny. I started shooting last year and the first time I shot a gun, I pretty much nailed my target close to the bullseye every time (with a 45mm Sig Sauer, not a rifle or anything...although I did shoot with a huge shotgun and boy did that hurt, but that's way OT).

My DH who was a sniper rated shooter in the Navy just looked me like... Don't mess with a woman with a gun.

 

[TheGoofster]

Thanks everyone for your great responses.

VVFF, I will keep working on trying to better understand the equation you mentioned. I would like to have a better understanding of the how and why of shutter speed.
ZackieDawg, thanks for the great advice about holding the camera. As soon as I finally get my camera, I will try and put that to good use (with lots and lots of pratice of course ).
And thanks everyone else about the good general rule of thumb about shutter speed. At least now I have a good starting point, and I can try and find a good speed that I can comfortably hold (and hopefully improve on).

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Bryan Peterson, author of Understanding Exposure, also has a book called Understanding Shutter Speed.

I am pretty good at holding still, also. I remember back when I was a kid my father told me to be sure to hold my breath when I took a picture in order to keep still, so it's something I've always done and still naturally do to this day.

Of course sometimes I wonder if I'm holding too still and counteracting the effect of the IS.

Sometimes you can definitely think this stuff too far through.

 

[wenrob]

Bryan Peterson, author of Understanding Exposure, also has a book called Understanding Shutter Speed.

I am pretty good at holding still, also. I remember back when I was a kid my father told me to be sure to hold my breath when I took a picture in order to keep still, so it's something I've always done and still naturally do to this day.

This is how my Grandpa taught me and I still do it too, even when I'm doing a quick snap w/my iphone.

Agreed, the general guidelines are a big help. I'm fairly comfortable at 1/30 if my kids are posing (HA!) and I need to go that slow. I've even had moderate success at 1/15 at times. I tend to keep my shutter speed around 1/125 most of the time indoors though, it's where I'm most confident I'm going to get the shot.