Should we have a right to make passes at strangers?

[Magpie]

I came across this article (edited slightly for language)...

How Safe is Ottawa?

Noreen Fagan / Ottawa / Thursday, August 11, 2011

Dan Ziemkiewicz is an out gay man, a member of the Ottawa Wolves rugby club, an up-and-coming photographer and not ashamed of flaunting his sexuality.

But on Saturday, July 30, his blasé attitude nearly led to a gaybashing.

Ziemkiewicz, his boyfriend, Guillaume Coudé-Levesque, and three friends were leaving the Lookout Bar in Byward Market when Ziemkiewicz spotted a cute guy standing on the curb near the Chateau Lafayette on York St.

As Ziemkiewicz passed the guy, he said, “I’m not angry at that.” When the guy said, “F. you,” Ziemkiewicz retorted, “Maybe later — I’m busy right now.”

Ziemkiewicz kept walking, and then heard the words, “Hey (nasty term for a gay man).”

“I turned around to see that guy I had made the comment to take a swing at me,” Ziemkiewicz says. “When I stepped back, my glasses fell off. When I stooped to pick them up, I noticed three other guys behind him.”

When Ziemkiewicz first contacted Xtra about the incident, via email, he wrote, “When I realized his buddies were there with him to pound the **** out of me, well, I jogged to the Mercury Lounge, which I know is a place that would not tolerate that kind of behaviour, to seek refuge.”

As Ziemkiewicz and his friends made their way to the bar, he says, the guys behind kept yelling, “Yeah run, you (see above).”

As they stood outside the Mercury Lounge the guys walked past, calling out “There’s that (ditto),” before turning around to face Ziemkiewicz.

“There were four of them staring me down in that almost-ready-to-charge bull-like way,” he says.

Ziemkiewicz says that Sara Ainslie, the owner and manager of Mercury Lounge, came down to the door and suggested they go upstairs.

“Our mandate, and I am sure that it is the same at Lookout, is to keep people safe. We want to provide a safe environment,” Ainslie says.

Ziemkiewicz admits that it was 2am and that they had all been drinking, but he says it’s not the first time he has commented on a cute guy.

“I am not a really political guy. I don’t go to many things. But I think by being who I am… to me, [that] is my activism. Maybe it’s putting myself in danger, I guess, but at the same time, it’s that direct-marketing approach,” he says.

Ziemkiewicz is irked that he didn’t stand up for himself — instead of fighting, he ran.

“I feel like here I am trying to make a statement, but by my actions, when it comes to it, I kind of folded,” he says. “I don’t know how to explain it, but I felt really defeated, like I did exactly what they were expecting to happen. I’m giving the community a bad face. I’m 250 pounds. Even if I get hit a couple of times — so what?”

Ziemkiewicz says that before the incident he and Coudé-Levesque were making out on the Lookout Bar balcony, overlooking the market. They felt comfortable and at ease, but what happened after has shaken his idea of how safe Ottawa really is.

“I just want people to be aware that this does happen in Ottawa. Regardless of how I feel, maybe this will get people talking about their experiences,” he says. “It is 2011, it is Ottawa and it is Pride. It’s a big city, and that is where people come from smaller towns to escape the dangers of living a gay life — but guess what? It’s not [always safe].”

While I agree that the men who menaced Dan were horrible, nasty thugs, I'm not at all comfortable with what HE did first.

I'm a woman. If I'm standing on the street with my friends and some guy leers at me and says, "I'm not angry at that!" (or anything else implying he'd like to "do" me), my reaction isn't going to be, "Oh, how sweet!" No, I'm going to be irritated and offended.

Now, if I were a less peaceable person than I am, I might even be inclined to offer the lout a one-fingered salute. And if his reaction then was to smirk and say, "Maybe later - I'm busy right now," I'm not likely to be particularly mollified. If I were a violent and/or drunk woman, I might even want to punch him. (Or pull out a can of bear spray, anyway.)

I guess my thought is... since when is it EVER safe (or right!) to make sexual comments at strangers?

Dan is framing this as a gay rights issue, but I'm not entirely sure it is. No one likes being treated like a tasty piece of meat.

 

[FireDancer]

I don't really see any issue with what Dan did. He could have been a little less over the top but he wasn't hurting anyone. If someone of any gender hits on you and you aren't interested you can just say thanks but no thanks. There is no reason to get in a fight over it, I just think that is silly.

 

[HM]

I don't think it's right to make comments of a sexual nature toward strangers either. And I agree it's not a gay rights issue at all. It's an issue of decorum and his lack of it.

He should keep his mouth shut. Will save him a lot of grief, I'm sure.

 

[lovemygoofy]

I don't have a particular problem with people and their comments. I have a problem with actions and reactions. People need to learn manners and people need to learn to relax.

People are sexualized every day no matter what. Turn on the television, open a magazine or look at a billboard. If we aren't going to comment on people and appearance then things need to change in the entire culture.

I will have to say that in college I was at a bar where a man I did not know put his hands on me. I reacted strongly with my high heel on the top of his foot. He left with some broken bones on his foot and I woke up with a five finger bruise because some guy thought he could just grab me.

I work on an army post. There are lots of handsome guys around. I enjoy the view and have no problems telling it out loud.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Well it is 2am in the city after everyone is drunk. Gay, straight, female, male, keep your mouth shut. He is lucky he was not mugged or killed. Or the latest thing here in St. Louis, you are beaten by a gang for nothing.

 

[jrmasm]

I came across this article (edited slightly for language)...



While I agree that the men who menaced Dan were horrible, nasty thugs, I'm not at all comfortable with what HE did first.

I'm a woman. If I'm standing on the street with my friends and some guy leers at me and says, "I'm not angry at that!" (or anything else implying he'd like to "do" me), my reaction isn't going to be, "Oh, how sweet!" No, I'm going to be irritated and offended.

Now, if I were a less peaceable person than I am, I might even be inclined to offer the lout a one-fingered salute. And if his reaction then was to smirk and say, "Maybe later - I'm busy right now," I'm not likely to be particularly mollified. If I were a violent and/or drunk woman, I might even want to punch him. (Or pull out a can of bear spray, anyway.)

I guess my thought is... since when is it EVER safe (or right!) to make sexual comments at strangers?

Dan is framing this as a gay rights issue, but I'm not entirely sure it is. No one likes being treated like a tasty piece of meat.

I think the simple answer is that he should have kept his comments to himself and none of it would have happened.

 

[LuvsDragonflies]

What in the heck does "I'm not angry at that?" mean?

Also, I'm thinking it doesn't take a rocket scientist for someone to get the fact that some men are completely hungup on "gay" and would freak out about some obviously gay guy making a com'on comment to him.

Does it mean he should get his butt beat, absolutely not, but I think it was a stupid thing for him to do. Just as a self preservation thing, kwim?

 

[Magpie]

I don't really see any issue with what Dan did. If someone of any gender hits on you and you aren't interested you can just say thanks but no thanks. There is no reason to get in a fight over it, I just think that is silly.

I agree it's silly to get into a fight over it. But I do have an issue with what Dan did. It's rude. He doesn't know the men and they've given no indication that they're interested in knowing him.

I'd be very disappointed in my son if he was going around saying to his buddies - in the woman's hearing! - "I'm not angry at that!" or "Yeah, I'd like a piece of that!" or "Nice tush on that, eh?" I'd hope I'd raised him better. Women are more than just "that", especially to their face.

Besides, that kind of hit-and-run comment is not really a pass. It's just objectification.

 

[kamik86]

This wasn't really "hitting on" that was lewd. If a guy said that to a female she would find it offensive, so I can see where the guy was offended. Add drunk and possibly slighting homophobic to that and I'm not surprised a fight broke out.

If the guy had said something more like simply "hitting on" it is more likely he would have just been told off by the drunk and slightly homophobic guy and everyone would have moved on with their day.

 

[Magpie]

What in the heck does "I'm not angry at that?" mean?

Also, I'm thinking it doesn't take a rocket scientist for someone to get the fact that some men are completely hungup on "gay" and would freak out about some obviously gay guy making a com'on comment to him.

Does it mean he should get his butt beat, absolutely not, but I think it was a stupid thing for him to do. Just as a self preservation thing, kwim?

Around here it means about the same as, "I'd like a piece of that!" and it's said in the same tone of voice.

In other words, "That person is extremely good looking, and I find him or her sexually attractive."

Generally, it should be shared with your friends outside of the object's hearing.

 

[Robinrs]

That was a case of homophobia gone wild, NOT anything to do with a "make passes" rights issue.

I HATE remarks from strangers in the street, but it's completely different than what this situation was. The guy was insulted and his precious sexuality was questioned. Ego issue.

 

[sparklynails23]

What in the heck does "I'm not angry at that?" mean?

Yeah. Did he say something else? I don't think that comment would garner an f-you reply. Still, the verbal exchange would be enough. If someone shows you unwanted overt sexual attention, an angry retort would be warranted but not an assault.

If Dan was with his 4 friends, as it says in the article, did they all run back to the bar? And he's a rugby player? Something about that article doesn't add up. Not that gay bashing doesn't happen, it does, but this story sounds odd. Somebody needs to check with the other eye witnesses.

 

[FireDancer]

The guy was insulted and his precious sexuality was questioned. Ego issue.

I've got to agree with this. I think if you are comfortable in your sexuality you aren't bothered if a gay guy hits on you (or makes a lewd comment to you).

 

[Magpie]

I work on an army post. There are lots of handsome guys around. I enjoy the view and have no problems telling it out loud.

Do the men have the same privilege on your army post? If a female officer walks in the door, can they whistle and make comments about her "attributes"?

I spent a few years in the Canadian Army, and by and large I found that women could get away with much cruder behaviour than men. They were expected to treat us with respect and professionalism, but we could make all the dirty comments we liked.

There's been some attempt to crack down on that in the time since I left. They've tightened up the rules considerably, to make it fair to both genders.

 

[lovemygoofy]

I agree it's silly to get into a fight over it. But I do have an issue with what Dan did. It's rude. He doesn't know the men and they've given no indication that they're interested in knowing him.

I'd be very disappointed in my son if he was going around saying to his buddies - in the woman's hearing! - "I'm not angry at that!" or "Yeah, I'd like a piece of that!" or "Nice tush on that, eh?" I'd hope I'd raised him better. Women are more than just "that", especially to their face.

Besides, that kind of hit-and-run comment is not really a pass. It's just objectification.

So is it fine if your son notices a girl's behind and comments on it if the girl doesn't hear? I guess I simply don't understand the difference.

I never really thought of that is objectification as just appreciating. I really need to get out more it seems. I've certainly been with some girls and seen someone attractive and made comments to them about it or vice versa.

It would be different if your son brought home a woman with big ****s and no brain and all he did was stare at her chest fixated. I believe that might be objectification.

 

[Magpie]

I've got to agree with this. I think if you are comfortable in your sexuality you aren't bothered if a gay guy hits on you (or makes a lewd comment to you).

I'm a straight woman. Does the fact that I'm bothered when a man makes a lewd comment at me mean I'm not comfortable in my sexuality?

 

[Scurvy]

This wasn't really "hitting on" that was lewd. If a guy said that to a female she would find it offensive, so I can see where the guy was offended. Add drunk and possibly slighting homophobic to that and I'm not surprised a fight broke out.

If the guy had said something more like simply "hitting on" it is more likely he would have just been told off by the drunk and slightly homophobic guy and everyone would have moved on with their day.

I agree. I think there's a big difference between "hitting on" someone and making lewd or sexual comments to (or about) someone. I would like to think that people would not fly off the handle like this just because someone expresses an interest in them. But having someone say something lewd to you is completely different, and it isn't surprising that it doesn't work out well when someone does that expecially when alcohol and possible prejudice are involved.

Actually, though, If I heard someone say "I'm not angry at that" I would assume I was hearing only one side of a conversation and I woud just ignore it because I have never heard that phrase used to hit on anyone before. I'm sort of surprised that this incident turned so ugly simply because it seems like such an innocuous phrase to have set off such an unpleasant situation.

 

[lovemygoofy]

Do the men have the same privilege on your army post? If a female officer walks in the door, can they whistle and make comments about her "attributes"?

I spent a few years in the Canadian Army, and by and large I found that women could get away with much cruder behaviour than men. They were expected to treat us with respect and professionalism, but we could make all the dirty comments we liked.

There's been some attempt to crack down on that in the time since I left. They've tightened up the rules considerably, to make it fair to both genders.

Yeah that is me. I walk around doing the worker whistle at any attractive man that comes by. I'm just about as crude as they come. I'm out there yelling " I gotta get me some of that." (I hear snickers all over the world from people that really know me)

I work in an office of women. I've never thought anything about sharing a smile with another coworker when an attractive man is leaving. It makes for a nice moment in a crazy day. I'm pretty sure that doesn't make me a bad person.

I've also accepted compliments from others when I'm out and about. I take time to look nice and appreciate the nice not crude compliment.

 

[Tinkermommy]

Let me get this straight.

- Dan makes a crude remark to another guy about wanting to have sex with him.
- Dan's boyfriend is with him as our three other guys.
- Dan plays rugby but runs away when the guy yells at him.
- Dan goes to a place he thinks is safe but doesn't go in. Just stands outside.
- Other guys come and yell more stuff then they leave.
- Someone writes an article about the incident called "How safe is Ottawa?"

I would have to say sounds pretty safe. No one got hurt. But several people on both sides acted like jerks.

Do you guys not have enough news stories?

 

[FireDancer]

I'm a straight woman. Does the fact that I'm bothered when a man makes a lewd comment at me mean I'm not comfortable in my sexuality?

It has to do with the nature of the reaction. If you respond to a mere comment with violence I'd say you have some sort of issue.