Should the Pope apologize??

[LuvDuke]

Sure, we all get upset to different degrees and what upsets you doesn't upset me. But we should all agree that a batter shouldn't go out an thrash the pitcher with his baseball bat because he said something the batter didn't like (right or wrong). If this were an normal case of aggressive behavior, we'd recommend anger management sessions. Since it's religiously based, we have to be more understanding and mindful of what we say.

Finally, something we agree on. And, IMO, the higher you are on the food chain, the more mindful you should be as to what you say, and if you choose to say it, be willing to accept the consequences.

 

[eclectics]

Their conduct affects us.

If it didn't I doubt many people here would even care about them at all. I'll say again, putting aside who is right and who is wrong, there should be some sort of world summit on religion to try to sort out this growing resentment. The more they resent us, the more we resent them for resenting us....and so on. It's not going to go away.

 

[Kendra17]

Indeed, there have been agreements on the order of the surahs, as they can be ordered chronologically to an extent. But there is evidently no way to know for sure.
http://www.islamonline.net/english/Quran/2005/08/article02.shtml

You keep pointing fingers at others that you ought to point at yourself. I would say we are both poor scholars of Islam, Kendra. But every claim you make about Islam can be refuted. Personally, I do not support Islam or its tenets at all, at least no more than any other religion. Yet I have very, very easily found arguments against all the ignorant statements you have made against the religion, trying to incite hate and fear. It has been so easy, in fact, that I wonder where you are finding your information.

Stating that something has been successfully refuted doesn't actually mean that it has been. Since I've stated source material, there is nothing you were able to refute, Laura. And, your first argument is inane. It doesn't matter if a few surrahs can't be quoted in order, Laura. Since Muhammed himself stated that certain revelations replaced other revelations and talked about which ones he was referring to.

You are right. Oddly, the link doesn't work now and the pages were all removed. Here's the cached version to the page. If you click on the links on the left, they do not work now. The only thing I can come up with about the link not working is that they took it down because of higher-than-usual traffic. These people who speak out against Political /extreme Islam are terrified.

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache...ing+islam+secularism&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=7
I can't get to the page I previously linked, but check back on the site (others-- not you Laura, I suspect you will not) and maybe some of the posts will be back up. Some were painful yet beautifully written.
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache...larism+leaving+islam&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=7

It's too bad your mind is so absolutely closed that you cannot even read testimonials from former Muslims who learned to think critically and have important information to share. Too bad they can't get an audience with you who professes to only listen to the party line and those that are unable to criticize anything to do with Islam. Again, where do you get your information on Scientology? There are many religions and religious sects that seem to be endlessly criticized by the Left. When one mentions Islam specifically, however, any criticism AT ALL is not permitted. By learning only from self-professed Moderate Muslims, you will not get a full picture. Furthermore, Muslims are permitted (in the Koran) to lie to nonMuslims if it will heighten the appeal of Islam to the nonMuslim. As I mentioned before, there is a clear set of ethics that Muslims are required to follow when dealing with other Muslims but are not expected to follow when dealing with nonMuslims.

And, yes, I know that Islam the fastest growing religion.

To others, not Laura, what do you make of this? If the Koran is filled with these dangerous and inciteful passages, do the religious leaders tell the potential convert to ignore those passages? I do not think that any religious leader would say such a thing, so what is it that is so attractive to potential converts-- especially women?

 

[Charade]

I agree. That was basically my point.

It appears that you missed my point. The Muslims that caused all the violence need anger management sessions.

 

[Kendra17]

I know.....why that might be like trying to allow women to become priests or something. The nerve!!

This is why I mentioned "imagine a group of Muslim women demanding equal rights and trying to be Imams". . . . because it's ludicrous. It's true that women cannot be priests in the Catholic church but they are allowed to DISCUSS it and ORGANIZE and PROTEST. That's the point you seem to miss. No Priests are calling the people that want this apostates and demanding that they be killed.

This type of discussion is absent in Islam. I doubt there are any that even contemplate this kind of activity!

Your other argument has been talked about over and over again. Christians didn't kill because they believed God told them to. Jesus didn't command jihad or any activity close to this. People killed in God's name, but it wasn't commanded over and over again by Jesus. In Islam, it IS commanded over and over again. And, many of you get angry at those that point this out, rather than get angry at the people that follow Muhammed's commandments and pronouncements wholeheartedly and believe it is the one true religion, that the Koran is a perfect book and Muhammed was beautiful and perfect.

Furthermore, this is not a present-day issue. The inquisition happened, but it's OVER. The Jihadist activity has been going on since Muhammed and is a present-day issue that is growing.

Your anger and/or disgust is completely displaced.

 

[Kendra17]

To many here, the threat regarding Political Islam is completely overstated. There are terror cells all over the country. This potential threat (not far from me at all) was thwarted, thankfully. No, you don't see all this in the press and I don't know why-- they don't want the public to get scared? They are trying to avoid any backlash on the Muslim community?

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/site/modules/news/article.php?storyid=584

I guess if you lived close to the churches or if you or your family members were members, it might actually concern some of you. Maybe not.

 

[eclectics]

It appears that you missed my point. The Muslims that caused all the violence need anger management sessions.

No I didn't. I never said I tolerated violence. I give out no passes to anyone of any faith who commits any type of violence, I don't care who they are.

 

[LuvDuke]

I give out no passes to anyone of any faith who commits any type of violence, I don't care who they are.

Yanno, I don't believe anyone did.

 

[dcentity2000]

I give out no passes to anyone of any faith who commits any type of violence, I don't care who they are.

Quoted for absolute truth



Rich::

 

[simpilotswife]

This is why I mentioned "imagine a group of Muslim women demanding equal rights and trying to be Imams". . . . because it's ludicrous. It's true that women cannot be priests in the Catholic church but they are allowed to DISCUSS it and ORGANIZE and PROTEST. That's the point you seem to miss. No Priests are calling the people that want this apostates and demanding that they be killed.

Now they are allowed all of those things. Before they would have been ex-communicated which is it's own kind of death.

This type of discussion is absent in Islam. I doubt there are any that even contemplate this kind of activity!

I am sure that you will be happy to support for this assertion.

Your other argument has been talked about over and over again. Christians didn't kill because they believed God told them to. Jesus didn't command jihad or any activity close to this. People killed in God's name, but it wasn't commanded over and over again by Jesus. In Islam, it IS commanded over and over again. And, many of you get angry at those that point this out, rather than get angry at the people that follow Muhammed's commandments and pronouncements wholeheartedly and believe it is the one true religion, that the Koran is a perfect book and Muhammed was beautiful and perfect.

That is actually incorrect. Former teachings in the Catholic church used to assert that the Pope was "God" on earth, so technically God was ordering what happened.

And for the record I am not angry that people are pointing out what is written in the Koran. I could care less about it. My initial post on this thread stated that I did not think that the pope should apologize.

Furthermore, this is not a present-day issue. The inquisition happened, but it's OVER. The Jihadist activity has been going on since Muhammed and is a present-day issue that is growing.

So because it was in the past that makes it okay?

Your anger and/or disgust is completely displaced.

Again you are incorrect. My disgust with the Catholic Church is right where it is supposed to be.

 

[Charade]

Finally, something we agree on. And, IMO, the higher you are on the food chain, the more mindful you should be as to what you say, and if you choose to say it, be willing to accept the consequences.

Obviously I wasn't clear so don't get all that excited. Eclectics reply was the same as yours. My reply to him was the Muslims that caused all the violence need anger management. You just said yourself that a person has every right to be offended by what someone else says but they don't have a right to cut out their tounge.

So in regards to THIS reply, the Pope should be willing to accept the bombing of churches, the killing of a nun and finally personal death threats???? Soooory, but that is an unacceptable form of displeasure.

 

[Charade]

Statement from al-Qaida
Al-Qaida in Iraq and its allies issued a statement addressing the pope as “a cross-worshipper” and warning, “You and the West are doomed, as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere.

“You infidels and despots, we will continue our jihad (holy war) and never stop until God avails us to chop your necks and raise the fluttering banner of monotheism, when God’s rule is established governing all people and nations,” said the statement by the Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of Sunni Arab extremist groups in Iraq.

 

[sodaseller]

Though I suspect that simpilotswife and I will not agree on many points about the Church, she is correct that Benedict, both as Pope and previously as Prefect CDF, has tried to quash any discussion of female ordination, to the absurd point of defining the doctrine as solemn. To imagine that the Church permits a robust debate on the issue is just that - imagination And it is important to note that as a matter of doctrine, the Church's recognition of religious freedom is only 40 years old. Prior ro that, official teaching was that it was perfectly permissible and indeed normatively correct for government to coerce faith. To use the old formulation, error has no rights. It may not have been evangelization under the sword, but neither was it an appeal to an independent conscience. That is not meant to condemn the Church - I continue to believe it is the Body of Christ on earth, led by the Spirit, in her own mysterious way.



But to imagine that most of the observable differences are due to doctrinal superiority or the fact that our sacred text does not permit inhumane acts read by solely human eyes is to deceive oneself. It is also noteworthy that a reasonable Muslim could easily perceive our state sanctioned violence as originating from Christian doctrine. Not a few of our lawmakers has slipped into such formulations, and our leaders that profess to follow Christ are little troubled by instances of inhumanity. And I'm not talking about Niebuhrian recognition that society cannot be moral as an individual Christian can - that's a fair point, and one I personally agree with, but is not responsive to what we are seeing here on this thread, which is an apologia for inhumanity, and an attempt to incite

 

[Charade]

Another Iraqi extremist group, Ansar al-Sunna, challenged “sleeping Muslims” to prove their manhood by doing something other than “issuing statements or holding demonstrations.”

“If the stupid pig is prancing with his blasphemies in his house,” the group said in a Web statement, referring to the pope, “then let him wait for the day coming soon when the armies of the religion of right knock on the walls of Rome.”

In Iran, supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei used the comments to call for protests against the United States. He argued that while the pope may have been deceived into making his remarks, the words give the West an “excuse for suppressing Muslims” by depicting them as terrorists.

“Those who benefit from the pope’s comments and drive their own arrogant policies should be targeted with attacks and protests,” he said, referring to the United States.

 

[eclectics]

Yanno, I don't believe anyone did.

Then I officially have no idea what John meant . Sorry John. Maybe we should try again. Btw, Rich, I love your "round the world" soccer balls!

 

[DawnCt1]

Though I suspect that simpilotswife and I will not agree on many points about the Church, she is correct that Benedict, both as Pope and previously as Prefect CDF, has tried to quash any discussion of female ordination, to the absurd point of defining the doctrine as solemn. To imagine that the Church permits a robust debate on the issue is just that - imagination And it is important to note that as a matter of doctrine, the Church's recognition of religious freedom is only 40 years old. Prior ro that, official teaching was that it was perfectly permissible and indeed normatively correct for government to coerce faith. To use the old formulation, error has no rights. It may not have been evangelization under the sword, but neither was it an appeal to an independent conscience. That is not meant to condemn the Church - I continue to believe it is the Body of Christ on earth, led by the Spirit, in her own mysterious way.

The Pope will not have you beheaded if you decide to become a Southern Baptist. That is indeed a major difference between fundamental Islam and the Catholic Church.

 

[Uncle Remus]

The Pope will not have you beheaded if you decide to become a Southern Baptist. That is indeed a major difference between fundamental Islam and the Catholic Church.

I waz gonna tell y'all what Southern Baptists
do if you convert to Catholicism, but I'll

 

[DawnCt1]

I am sorry, but I have heard my fair share of outrage and whining from Christians as well. It is not unique to Muslims. It is a matter of perception.

Please; its clearly a matter of proportion. How many Christians have stormed the mosques and burned them to the ground. If it was only about whining, we could ignore it. Unless you don't think death threats against the Pope is going a bit far. Is there anything in fact that they can do that you would find offfensive?

 

[LuvDuke]

Obviously I wasn't clear so don't get all that excited. Eclectics reply was the same as yours. My reply to him was the Muslims that caused all the violence need anger management. You just said yourself that a person has every right to be offended by what someone else says but they don't have a right to cut out their tounge.

So in regards to THIS reply, the Pope should be willing to accept the bombing of churches, the killing of a nun and finally personal death threats???? Soooory, but that is an unacceptable form of displeasure.

Hell no, the Pope shouldn't be willing to accept the violence that's happening. Where in the hell did you ever get the idea anyone believed that?

What I did say is when someone is a head of state, they should understand that words have meaning and have consequences and they should take some responsibility for the consequences of their words. You can accept the fact that you may have caused a problem, but you don't have to accept those problems.

Btw, given the extent of the escalating violence in the Muslim world, still think you're going to "stay the course" in Iraq and create a Jeffersonian democracy? It isn't looking good for that and I'd say the odds are going down faster than Bush's poll numbers. And if you do feel you will eventually create a Jeffersonian democracy in the Muslim world, any bets as to what century that'll be?

 

[JoyG]

I find Kendra's description of the Muslim interpretation of the Koran to be dead on with what I read in this book:

Jesus and Muhammad: Profound Differences and Surprising Similarites

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Muhamma...ef=sr_1_2/102-5594252-6152938?ie=UTF8&s=books

This book was written by an ex muslim who grew up in a Muslim country. It appears that everyone in the author's community would be defined as a "radical fundamentalist muslim" by peope on the DIS...and I would hope that if the author was raised in the US he wouldn't have had some of those experiences. (For example when he told his father he was leaving the muslim faith his father put a gun to his head).

But it makes me wonder how many muslims in arab countries are really "moderates" and what percentage would we consider "fundamentals". It just seems like the author didn't encounter any "moderates" in his experiences.