Service Dogs OKW & ADA...complaint!

[mykidsintow]

Beth,
You need to get a bumper sticker that says my service dog is smarter than your honor student

That is hysterical! I have thought about:
"My kid can run over your honor roll student"
Of course that with need a little pic in the corner of a little girl in a wheelchair with pink pigtails!



Thanks for the laugh! I am still wanting this person in FL to call. I am ready to stir the pot!

 

[disneynewman]

The number I called was 850-487-3423. Can't remember the name of the person I spoke to but he was very helpful, I'm sure hearing your story will push them even more to perhaps confront Disney about it. Maybe when I get the papers in the mail he is sending me it will have his name. Also today I traked down the # for Disney corporate and asked for thier legal dept. I had to leave a voicemail and I simply said that I wanted to inform them that the CMs at WDW were asking illegal questions and explained what was going on. I'm sure they won't call back but at least I can say I did it.

 

[mechurchlady]

Beth,
You need to get a bumper sticker that says my service dog is smarter than your honor student

Based on what I see online that is so true but whose bumper gets the sticker lol.

 

[mykidsintow]

The number I called was 850-487-3423.

I just called! I spoke with someone by the name of Barbara. She was very helpful!

She is going to send information to the managers at *all* of the Disney resorts, focusing on the Polynesian since that is where my incident occured. She said that up until 2004 Florida law did require certification of dogs. However, in 2004 they passed the laws that reflects better the ADA. She said obviously some people haven't learned the new law, in 3 years.

She also took my name and number. She will be following up with the legal dept and customer satisfaction Depts my letter was sent to

I will let you know if we hear anything else!

 

[mykidsintow]

Barbara just called me back

Barbara talked to her boss. Her boss said he was sick of hearing about Disney and its *unacceptable*. So, her boss called The Florida Commission on Human Relations. She said they handle all of the ADA and laws throughout FL. The FCHR was not happy at all about whats going on. Their attorneys are calling the Legal Dept at Disney. They also will be calling the Polynesian and speaking to the manager that was in charge the day we check in (thankfully I scribbled down his name ).

So, I am guessing Disney may get their feathers ruffled a bit. Barbara called me to thank me for my first hand experience as well as the copy of the letter from our Attorney.

Then, my attorney friend called. The Commission on Human Relations has already had an attorney call her to follow up with the "situation". She is very impressed with them! Yaay!

Thanks very much for the phone number! I do hope that in the future others don't end up experiencing this craziness!

 

[disneynewman]

Well I will know in 47 days if this makes any difference. I already told my DH to have the video camera going when I check in If they ask me I'll have video proof that they do this

 

[SueM in MN]

Barbara just called me back

Barbara talked to her boss. Her boss said he was sick of hearing about Disney and its *unacceptable*. So, her boss called The Florida Commission on Human Relations. She said they handle all of the ADA and laws throughout FL. The FCHR was not happy at all about whats going on. Their attorneys are calling the Legal Dept at Disney. They also will be calling the Polynesian and speaking to the manager that was in charge the day we check in (thankfully I scribbled down his name ).

So, I am guessing Disney may get their feathers ruffled a bit. Barbara called me to thank me for my first hand experience as well as the copy of the letter from our Attorney.

Then, my attorney friend called. The Commission on Human Relations has already had an attorney call her to follow up with the "situation". She is very impressed with them! Yaay!

Thanks very much for the phone number! I do hope that in the future others don't end up experiencing this craziness!

 

[kimsuenew]

Barbara just called me back

Barbara talked to her boss. Her boss said he was sick of hearing about Disney and its *unacceptable*. So, her boss called The Florida Commission on Human Relations. She said they handle all of the ADA and laws throughout FL. The FCHR was not happy at all about whats going on. Their attorneys are calling the Legal Dept at Disney. They also will be calling the Polynesian and speaking to the manager that was in charge the day we check in (thankfully I scribbled down his name ).

So, I am guessing Disney may get their feathers ruffled a bit. Barbara called me to thank me for my first hand experience as well as the copy of the letter from our Attorney.

Then, my attorney friend called. The Commission on Human Relations has already had an attorney call her to follow up with the "situation". She is very impressed with them! Yaay!

Thanks very much for the phone number! I do hope that in the future others don't end up experiencing this craziness!

Awesome!
It's a shame it came to this, but maybe, just maybe, it was "the kick in the pants" that Disney needed to become compliant.

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

A few points:

• It is illegal (in the US) for proof/paperwork to be required for a service dog.
• The federal ADA law is over state laws regarding service dogs, so the "proof in Florida" thing never really existed, since the federal ADA law never required proof. Therefore, not knowing a new law is just a lame excuse. (It is true that Florida's law is almost exactly the same as the ADA now, with service dog in-training access added, except that it is only for physical disabilities. Also, Florida has a fantastic law against those who harm/kill or whose animals harm/kill service dogs. Other states need to learn from that law!)
• They cannot require vaccination/vet records/health certificates (unless you are travelling into another country/from another country, of course).
• Emotional Support Animals are not service animals. They do not have public access into stores, restaurants, hotels, Disney, etc. They can go in an airplane cabin IF they have the required doctor's note that contains specific information. Said note never requires the person's disability to be named.
• Airlines can only require paperwork proof if there is no other eligible proof given (vest, harness, credible verbal assurance, etc.). Unfortunately, many employees do not know the law and try to require such paperwork. Make a formal complaint to either the company or the DOT if this happens to you (depending on the severity of the problem/how often it happened).
• One team showing proof only trains the employees to look for proof from all other teams. Please do not show what is not required by law for the sake of other teams who will have to fight a harder battle after you if you do.
• Yes, there is a problem with unscrupulous people trying to pass their pets off as service dogs, both on land and to fly them. (Sadly, there are show dog people who try to pass their show dogs off as service dogs in order to not have to pay to get them to the show and/or so they don't have to put them in the cargo area or drive to the show.) This is sickening that these people do this and it DOES truly affect and threaten access for real disabled people who have real service dogs because they really need the help.

I had no problem last year checking into the Caribbean Beach Resort at Disney with my service dog. I did not tell them ahead of time about her (as I never do with anything but the airlines, as I need to request the bulkhead seat on the planes). I chose the area I requested a room in by looking at maps of the resort (in the PassPorter book, but maps can also be found online). There were no problems in the parks, either.

 

[dclfun]

Sadly, I feel that much of the issue is due to people passing off pets as SD's and passing off emotional support animals as SD's with the resorts and parks having problems resulting from the abuse. Unfortunately the fakes and frauds are the ones who complain the most loudly and who impact those of us who cannot travel without our SD's. I can tell you that each time we are at WDW I see at least one untrained pet, hear negative and questioning comments from Security about people with their "comfort pets", etc. Fortunately I also see well-behaved dogs accompanying disabled guests who are doing their job in the toughest of circumstances- people petting them and distracting them. While written "proof" is not required, there are two questions which can be asked if your disability isn't apparent..."are you disabled?", and" is that your SD?". Also they can ask, "what tasks does your dog do for you that you cannot do for yourself". On top of that the dog must exhibit exemplary behavior. BTW, I always carry shot records- if my dog were to be bitten or harmed by another, I want my own proof of vaccination for my dog's safety. ---Kathy

 

[SueM in MN]

Sadly, I feel that much of the issue is due to people passing off pets as SD's and passing off emotional support animals as SD's with the resorts and parks having problems resulting from the abuse. Unfortunately the fakes and frauds are the ones who complain the most loudly and who impact those of us who cannot travel without our SD's. I can tell you that each time we are at WDW I see at least one untrained pet, hear negative and questioning comments from Security about people with their "comfort pets", etc. Fortunately I also see well-behaved dogs accompanying disabled guests who are doing their job in the toughest of circumstances- people petting them and distracting them. While written "proof" is not required, there are two questions which can be asked if your disability isn't apparent..."are you disabled?", and" is that your SD?". Also they can ask, "what tasks does your dog do for you that you cannot do for yourself". On top of that the dog must exhibit exemplary behavior. BTW, I always carry shot records- if my dog were to be bitten or harmed by another, I want my own proof of vaccination for my dog's safety. ---Kathy

I totally agree.
I have seen some of those poorly behaved dogs out there in public. I have also seen people who are encouraging others to pet their 'service dog' (even with a vest that says something like "Service Dog. It's OK to pet me." I wonder just what sort of task that dog is capable of performing for its owner if it is constantly being petted.

It should probably be pointed out that emotional support animals are permitted on airplanes under the Air Transport Carrier's Act, but are not protected under the ADA for other places. Obviously, air carriers have an interest in making sure that anyone with emotional problems is going to be comfortable in the air. Someone who panics in air, could impact the safety of the flight for everyone.

 

[ktrain]

I hope this is relavent information.
I work for Amtrak's Autotrain and we are not allowed to ask any questions about animals that passengers bring on board other than " What service does this animal provide for you?"
The reply can be almost anything. We are not permitted to challenge anything. As a result we have transported "comfort" animals dressed in outfits in baby carrages or purses, snakes, birds, and cats. I am in no way try to say anything against real service animals, they are a usually a joy to have on board the train. Unlike the "comfort snake" that got loose in the coaches and ate the "comfort bird". no lie!

 

[toocherie]

really that is one of my big points...what PROOF do you want? I am all fired up over this and if asked to show PROOF I will not hesitate to call the sheriffs office. I did finally speak with someone at the front desk at OKW who told me that they would not ask me for any papers but after being told they would by multiple people, I won't be surprised but I will refuse to give in! This is my son and I know his his rights. I did speak with a very nice man in Tallahasee's Dept. of public heath, Disabilities section who is mailing me some pamphletes with local laws as well as ADA. He also said that he got a similar call yesterday and that he would bring it up to his supervisor that Disney is telling people this.
My brother is an assistant US Attorney in Miami, he will be joining us the day after we arrive, maybe I can get him to change his plans so he can flash his badge if needed
I just hope we don't have a problem...after travel for about 6 hours door to door including a 3 hour plane ride the kids don't need to see mommy go postal in Disney!

While I understand it is your "right" not to have to show proof for the service dog under the ADA, if you have a legitimate right to the service dog and have something to prove it is a service dog (I would think even a letter from a veterinarian) why is this such a big deal? You show the proof--the airline, Disney etc. is happy and you are on your way. Just because you have the opportunity to exercise some right does not mean you should do so (and calling the sheriff's office? what would you have them do? arrest the CM asking for the proof? having your brother flash his "badge" is a total overreaction too and probably overstepping his ethical boundaries--I doubt very much that the U.S. Attorney's Office wants their attorneys off flashing their badges to accommodate something their family wants). How hard is it to carry a letter from your vet or the service organization from which you got the dog?

I have two replaced knees; I have a card that says I have metal in my body (not to mention scars on my knees). When I go through a medical detector I regularly get pulled aside and questioned. I could put up a fuss too and scream "ADA" but in my experience once the situation is explained I go right on in and we're on our way. No reason to scream and shout. You just anticipate the issue and prepare for it. Sometimes it's easier to just "go with the flow" rather than swim upstream and no one has to see "Mommy" go postal. . . . . .

Instead of spending time firing off letters I would spend the time asking my vet or the service organization for a letter that I could flash if the service dog is ever questioned. Are such questions a violation of the ADA? Probably. But in the end are you really harmed by showing a letter that says it is a legitimate service dog? And if it prevents even one person from bringing the family dog (or snake?) and passing it off as a service animal isn't it worth the trouble? Seems to me that Disney is just trying to prevent people from abusing the system . . . .

Let the flames begin . . . . .

 

[SueM in MN]

Instead of spending time firing off letters I would spend the time asking my vet or the service organization for a letter that I could flash if the service dog is ever questioned. Are such questions a violation of the ADA? Probably. But in the end are you really harmed by showing a letter that says it is a legitimate service dog? And if it prevents even one person from bringing the family dog (or snake?) and passing it off as a service animal isn't it worth the trouble? Seems to me that Disney is just trying to prevent people from abusing the system . . . .

Let the flames begin . . . . .

Not flaming, but just bringing a different point of view.
It is against the law to require proof, so the places that are asking are not following the law.
One of the problems with people showing proof automatically is that the CMs get to expect that and will require it of the next person, who may have a legitimate Service Dog, but may not have proof.

There is no recognized 'proof' for someone's dog being a Service Dog (SD). There is no specific organization that licenses and/or trains SDs, so 'proof' doesn't really mean anything. Someone who wants to bring their pet could probably get a vet to write them a letter. Someone could make a pretty official looking card on their computer (and laminate it for good measure).

And then, you get into the problem of what 'proof' would they accept.
WDW might want a letter from the vet; somewhere else might want a letter from the person's doctor; somewhere else might want proof that the dog was trained by a specific agency.
What about the person with a real SD who doesn't have any proof or has 'proof', but it is not the specific proof that the place decided they are looking for. Do they not get to use it because they don't have the 'correct' proof, even though the law says they don't need to have any proof.

A situation that is similar, but in the same vein would be if people were asked to prove they had a driver's license before they were allowed to park in a business' parking lot. Maybe the business has good intentions (un-licensed drivers might have a higher rate of accidents), but people would not be willing to prove they have a right to drive every time they park.

 

[toocherie]

Not flaming, but just bringing a different point of view.
It is against the law to require proof, so the places that are asking are not following the law.
One of the problems with people showing proof automatically is that the CMs get to expect that and will require it of the next person, who may have a legitimate Service Dog, but may not have proof.

There is no recognized 'proof' for someone's dog being a Service Dog (SD). There is no specific organization that licenses and/or trains SDs, so 'proof' doesn't really mean anything. Someone who wants to bring their pet could probably get a vet to write them a letter. Someone could make a pretty official looking card on their computer (and laminate it for good measure).

And then, you get into the problem of what 'proof' would they accept.
WDW might want a letter from the vet; somewhere else might want a letter from the person's doctor; somewhere else might want proof that the dog was trained by a specific agency.
What about the person with a real SD who doesn't have any proof or has 'proof', but it is not the specific proof that the place decided they are looking for. Do they not get to use it because they don't have the 'correct' proof, even though the law says they don't need to have any proof.

A situation that is similar, but in the same vein would be if people were asked to prove they had a driver's license before they were allowed to park in a business' parking lot. Maybe the business has good intentions (un-licensed drivers might have a higher rate of accidents), but people would not be willing to prove they have a right to drive every time they park.

Sue: I can certainly appreciate your point of view. Unfortunately, it's the people who take advantage of a law who makes it tough on the people who legitimately are entitled to the benefit of it (and tough on the people who try to comply with it).

On the drivers' license example--granted--people would probably stop going to the business that asks for drivers' licenses--but that does not stop the business owner from asking for the proof--would seem to me they have the legal right to require that since they are on private property? Whether it makes business sense to ask for it is another question . . . . .so I think in some respects it is apples and oranges.

Perhaps there should be a national certification for service dogs? Then there would not be chance for someone to "phony up" proof that it is a service dog?

My other point was/is that in the short-term the OP could save herself a lot of strife by getting a letter from her vet or the service dog organization rather than bringing in the sheriff's office or the U.S. Attorney's Office to fight her battle. Seems to me in this particular instance that there is a much simpler solution and would save her (and her family) a lot of emotional energy.

On the other hand, an unemotional letter from the OP to Disney/OKW and Disney's legal department will have a more long-term and lasting effect. And yes, getting the State agency involved will also help in the long-term.

I do not believe that CM's who question a service dog's legitimacy are purposely trying to violate the ADA--most likely they are trying to prevent abuses by unscrupulous people trying to take advantage by bringing their pet to the resorts with them rather than leaving them home.

Just my two cents' . . . . again.

 

[disneynewman]

Sue--Thanks well said

toocherie--- Wow, thanks for the support
See how I used the to show my sarcasm? Same thing with having my brother show his badge. BTW US Attorneys are prohibited from practicing law unless it is FOR the government, I've known that for a long time, just trying to add some humor to my frustrating situation, same with the postal comment. I am not going to make a huge seen in the lobby at our resort but I am also not going to 'roll over' and hand them something to appease them when it is illegal.
If you want to show proof that you have metal in your knees go ahead, please do not compare that with mothers trying to protect the rights of thier disabled children. Yes it may be 'easier' to show them something, it would also have been 'easier' not to go through the work of raising $14000 to obtain this dog and give my son the chance at a better life. It would have been 'easier' to just let the schools do what they want and not be involved it would be 'easier' to just stay home and not go out and deal with this. When my son is old enough and able to stand up for himself (if he is ever able), he can do or not so what he wants. In the meantime it is MY responsibility to stand up for him and protect his RIGHTS no matter how small. Things do not change if people do not stand up to effect change. If the federal government ever creates a way to prove a service animals legitimacy, I am happy to comply. Until then, I will do what is right and expect others, especially a corporation as large as Disney to do what is right

 

[disneynewman]

Oh and by the way. Calling the local police or sherriff is not to have someone arrested. It is what my SD's organization has told me to do in an instance like this, becasue they know the laws and there to enforce them. As another post in this thread said, she was told that if she did not show proof she would not be allowed to check into her resort. A CLEAR violation of ADA. IF I was told that we could not check in I would most certainly call the local authorities.

 

[toocherie]

Whew! Getting warm in here . . . .

didn't realize there was a hierarchy of disabilities and that some are more important than others . . . .

when I saw the about your brother's potential involvement I interpreted that to mean that you thought "that'll teach 'em". Did not pick up that you were trying to be sarcastic in the context of the rest of your post--so I'm sorry if I misinterpreted that. As an attorney myself (for 27 years) I have an issue with an attorney (or any type of officer of the court or police officer) mis-using their authority--especially a government attorney.

While the ADA has been a great law to create access for the disabled, it is by no means a perfect law and I believe it gets mis-used in a lot of circumstances (not implying that you are mis-using it--mind you). There are reports of people claiming a disability to rent a wheelchair or EVC they don't need, for example, and using the shield of the ADA to fend off any questioning of their need.

I will start a separate thread about one such abuse that I have encountered many times in my practice.

in any event, since it is clear we disagree I will sign off from this thread.

good luck with your check-in and I hope it goes smoothly and that your family has a wonderful vacation.

 

[pugdog]

Sue: I can certainly appreciate your point of view. Unfortunately, it's the people who take advantage of a law who makes it tough on the people who legitimately are entitled to the benefit of it (and tough on the people who try to comply with it).

I do not believe that CM's who question a service dog's legitimacy are purposely trying to violate the ADA--most likely they are trying to prevent abuses by unscrupulous people trying to take advantage by bringing their pet to the resorts with them rather than leaving them home.

Just my two cents' . . . . again.

There will always be a small percentage of people who think they are above the law and will triwst it to their advantage every chance they get.

And as far as the CM's go it is not there job to to question it in the first place. If the person says it is a service dog they have to take their word for it. Is that right, maybe not but to walk on someones elses rights to have their SD over the few that bring their pet is the cost of that.

Pick any subject and there well always be unscrupulous people who take advantage of it. That is one small price to pay to live in this country.

 

[sorul82?]

Is there a special building/floor at each Disney resort for service animals? I'm assuming Disney keeps track of which rooms have been occupied by a service animal? Does someone with severe pet dander allergies need to request a pet free room?