Seats on a plane, wishful thinking

[LuvOrlando]

Wishful thinking

 

[kdonnel]

The changes she suggest probably would add weight to the plane and reduce the number of seats. Adding weight to the plane and would mean more fuel needed for the same route. More fuel needed for the route would mean a price increase would be required. Fewer seats would mean a need to increase fares.

People have demonstrated that they prefer the cheaper fare in exchange for the discomfort.

 

[LuvOrlando]

That is a big jump, what if the changes could reduce weight? A great many of today's planes are very old. I would imagine with electric cars being so pervasive and the potentially symbiotic drive towards design features that are lighter, safer with increased tensile strength, well, there must be a ton of improved materials and desigs.

I simply do not believe the same clunky seat in the average plane is the best the people at Tesla can imagineer or have imagined and left on the design room floor to be potentially repackaged and sold to other industries, that would be just silly. Must be literally hundreds of possibilities, if not more.
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Bigger issue is a really old industry content to not change because, why should they?

 

[kdonnel]

That is a big jump, what if the changes could reduce weight? A great many of today's planes are very old. I would imagine with electric cars being so pervasive and the potentially symbiotic drive towards design features that are lighter, safer with increased tensile strength, well, there must be a ton of improved materials and desigs.

I simply do not believe the same clunky seat in the average plane is the best the people at Tesla can imagineer or have imagined and left on the design room floor to be potentially repackaged and sold to other industries, that would be just silly. Must be literally hundreds of possibilities, if not more.

Even old planes have new seats. Airlines are constantly refreshing their interiors.

There are many big players that manufacture seats for airlines. They spend millions of dollars on R&D every year trying to make the seats as light as possible while still be as comfortable as possible.

• Raytheon Technologies Corporation (US)
• Safran (France)
• RECARO Aircraft Seating GmbH & Co. KG (Germany)
• ZIM Aircraft Seating GmbH (Germany)
• Stelia Aerospace (France)
• Jamco Corporation (Japan)
• ST Engineering (Singapore)
• Acro Aircraft Seating (UK)
• Expliseat (UK)
• Adient Aerospace LLC (US)
• Mirus Aircraft Seating (England)
• Martin Baker Aircraft Co. Ltd (UK)
• Geven S.P.A. (Italy)
• Ipeco Holdings Ltd (UK)
• UNUM (UK)

If you look at RECARO
https://www.recaro-as.com/en/aircraft-seats/economy-class.html

Their sales pitch for their economy class seats all focus on how light weight they are. The seat manufacturers could create a heavier seat that was more comfortable but the airlines won't buy them because the flying public would revolt at the price increases.

Weight is very important in an airlines chances for profitability.

In 2015 AA saved an estimated $350,000 a year in fuel costs by removing the Skymall magazine from flights.


RECARO's sales pitch for their economy class seats.

https://www.recaro-as.com/en/aircraft-seats/economy-class.html

Economical and comfortable.​

Light weight in the foreground.​

The current trend is pointing in one direction: To reduce fuel consumption, airlines are looking for more ways to reduce weight in aircraft interiors. This is especially true in the case of Economy Class Seats.

However, successful seating concepts call for much more than low weight alone. Comfort and living space also play a decisive role.

Aircraft seats from RECARO Aircraft Seating also distinguish themselves with their outstanding quality and innovative design. A special focus is always placed on the efficiency and cost-effectiveness of the seats throughout their entire lifecycle.

Weight reduction, use of the latest materials and intelligent design: our Economy Class Seats help airlines save on kerosene and therefore fly more ecologically.

RECARO Aircraft Seating offers custom-tailored solutions for both the Economy and Premium Economy Classes. This has made us the world leader in Economy Class Seats.

 

[LuvOrlando]

But maybe all those companies simply aren't good enough if they can't do better lighter? I'm sure they have excellent engineers but those old clunky businesses have a well established hierarchy that likely snuffs out disruptors and innovation of newer people in favor of tenure.

Again, I suspect a business putting vehicles into outer space is probably better placed for the task.... like who is more driven to make things better and lighter than a business that innovates electric vehicles and spacecraft?

I have never sat in a seat on a plane and thought to myself, "Wow, they sure have improved things," not ever, not even once.

 

[kdonnel]

But maybe all those companies simply aren't good enough if they can't do better lighter? I'm sure they have excellent engineers but those old clunky businesses have a well established hierarchy that likely snuffs out disruptors and innovation of newer people in favor of tenure.

Again, I suspect a business putting vehicles into outer space is probably better placed for the task.... like who is more driven to make things better and lighter than a business that innovates electric vehicles and spacecraft?

I have never sat in a seat on a plane and thought to myself, "Wow, they sure have improved things," not ever, not even once.

If someone could create a lighter, more comfortable seat, at the same price, the airlines would be all over buying them.

I don’t think a company putting cars into space is any better positioned to create better seats than the companies already in the seat making industry.

Instead people flock to Frontier, Spirit, Ryan Air and other ultra low cost carriers.

Delta A321 has 191 seats.
Spirit A321 has 235 seats.

You get a lot less comfort from the seat but you get to your destination for a fraction of the price.

 

[sam_gordon]

But maybe all those companies simply aren't good enough if they can't do better lighter? I'm sure they have excellent engineers but those old clunky businesses have a well established hierarchy that likely snuffs out disruptors and innovation of newer people in favor of tenure.

I think you're looking for a conspiracy that's not there. First, remember, airlines (any business) is trying to make money. They can make flights more expensive (to make up for upgraded/heavier/more comfortable seats), but that costs them more in operating costs.

Do I think they're in a boardroom saying "haha, screw the comfort of our passengers, what's worked for years will continue to work!" Absolutely not. I think it's easy to say "this could be done better", but one really needs to look at all the reasons it's not "done better".

 

[LuvOrlando]

Interesting take, do you or does someone you know work for the airlines or an airline adjacent business? Why such devotion to things as they are? I don't get it

 

[sam_gordon]

Interesting take, do you or does someone you know work for the airlines or an airline adjacent business? Why such devotion to things as they are? I don't get it

Who are you replying to? Myself or @kdonnel?

 

[kdonnel]

Why such devotion to things as they are? I don't get it

I don't feel like the airlines are devoted to things as they are.

They just recognize that the majority of their customers would rather pay less knowing the consequence is an uncomfortable seat.

The airlines also know that some of their customers will pay more.

Here is a Delta example, well really Virgin Atlantic and Delta.



The airline is letting the consumer decide how much their comfort is worth.

Don't care if you get assigned a middle seat in the back next to the toilet? Go for Basic Economy.

Want to pick you seat? Pay the extra $220.

Want 4 or so inches of extra leg room? That will be another $217 + the $220.

Want a foot rest and many of the things mentioned in the video? Spring for Premium Economy, a whopping $1406 additional for the footrest and extra width and seat pitch that comes with it for a total of $1843 more than basic economy.

Want to arrive rested after a nap in your fully lay flat seat? That is $8486 more expensive than a basic economy seat.

If the airlines thought there were enough consumers to always fill a plane in Delta One/Upper Class then the plane would only have those seats. Instead they know they have a mixture of travelers and put in the ratio of seat types their past data has shown they can fill.

Edited to add:
My brother in law does work for a Part 135 airline. He flies people who have the money to buy an even higher level of comfort. One where the plane leaves from an FBO on the larger airport property instead of from the main terminal complex. You show up minutes before your flight, skip TSA, are greeted by your pilot, and are flown in a 6-14 seat jet to your destination. Again arriving at an FBO at the main airport or perhaps an FBO at a smaller airport much closer to your final destination than a commercial airline could get you.

 

[tony67]

For someone to do better it has to be profitable and the airlines have to be willing to buy the seats.

Lay flat seats in first & business class have been all the rage for a while now and that is where the investments have been made because its profitable and people are willing to pay for it.

More recently it seems the money is in Premium Economy seats., I was reading an article about that a week or two ago. Its even more profitable per square foot than First or Business class. The Premium Economy has seats that would have been considered first class in the 90s. So I expect many Airlines in the US may follow suit over the next few years - so I would not expect much focus on economy seats.

When you have to compete with the likes of Spirt and Southwest is it really worth investing in better Economy seats? Its all about fitting in as many seats per row as possible. They will invest in lighter seats if it saves them money - but unfortunately they don't care about our comfort unless we want to pay extra for it - which I can understand. Economy if very price sensitive. Several of the European Airlines don't even give free drinks anymore - flying from the US to Europe. It's not even an nominal charge - its $7+ a drink Lets not even talk about how bad the food has gotten. Aer Lingus offered an upgraded meal with a glass of wine for $20 and no one bought it so its not even an option anymore. Most people are shopping price and just don't seem to be willing to pay for the extras.

Many of the flights to Europe are now 3x3 configuration. I really dislike that. Even worse the larger planes are now a 3x3x3 instead of the older 2x4x2 - so they can fit in one more seat per row. Flying as a couple or even a family of 4 this is not optimal.
Some of them offer a deal to buy the middle seat - but that is pretty much the day before your flight, if available - its never available .

I'd love to see better seats and more options, and Id be willing to pay a little for it, but not the $600 extra for Premium Economy.

 

[mmouse37]

I never buy basic economy....i want to book my seat in the best location for me based on what is available when I book.

I did a last minute trip to Denver from NY 2 weeks ago. Priced out a bunch of airlines. Saw that Frontier was a reasonable price. Never flew them before. I usually fly JetBlue or United. Thought for the savings how bad could Frontier be for 4 hours. Well....the staff were fine, the service was fine and since it was a 10 pm flight I didn't mind no screen as I hope to snooze a bit.....but.... the economy seat had way less padding than a JetBlue or United plane. My rear was numb and I had to change positions several times during the 4 hour flight. I could see flying Frontier to Florida for a little over 2 hour flight to save some money but not anything longer than that. I'll pay the extra to fly in a more comfortable seat.

 

[LuvOrlando]

IF the cost of flying a big bulky heavy plane is truly the biggest expense THEN it makes no sense that lighter seats wouldn't be advantageous and why not make them better suited to humans while at it? After all the whole fuel and pollution issue is a big deal isn't it, we need to do all we can to reduce emissions shouldn't we all?

If the above premise is correct I truly see no reason to accept the idea that lighter more current designs that just so happen to be better for humans would not be cheaper over the course of time for a long term investment land contributor to pollution like airplanes, which BTW could probably do with some newer planes in light of more recent events with stuff falling off Even if here is some cost to improved seats then the airlines should pony it up just like every other industry in the name of reducing emissions, shouldn't they? This is the biggest thing right now isn't it, with every corner of the world being called to the table to make contributions?

 

[neverlandsky]

The movement towards lighter seats is to offset the weight due to majority of passengers choosing to bring on carry-ons and not checking-in bags.

 

[sam_gordon]

The movement towards lighter seats is to offset the weight due to majority of passengers choosing to bring on carry-ons and not checking-in bags.

Think about that though. What weight are they offsetting? Let's say I pack 50# worth of stuff. What difference does it make whether 25# is in a carryon and 25# is in the checked luggage vs 50# in carry on or 50# in checked? It's still 50#. Weight & Balance is an issue fore & aft, not top to bottom.

 

[kdonnel]

The movement towards lighter seats is to offset the weight due to majority of passengers choosing to bring on carry-ons and not checking-in bags.

I really think the airlines should start charging by the pound.

The FAA currently says that the average weight for an adult passenger plus carry-on luggage is 190 pounds in the summer and 195 pounds in the winter. They use this in weight and balance and fuel calculations.

At checkin you get on the scale with your checked and carry on baggage.

For every pound over whatever the included weight, you pay extra at check in.

Of course if you bought a 50 pound checked bag or your status or credit card affiliation gets you a free bag or two, that is taken into consideration. The airlines could even offer pound purchases at a discount early in the ticketing process.

 

[neverlandsky]

I don't know. All I know is when we were on a flight, pilot wouldn't take off because there wasn't a proper distribution of weight with passengers in their seats. So, us passengers had to shift to proper seating spots to balance the plane. Kind of scary if you think about it. We've been flying with carry-ons and not once has our carry-ons been weighed by the airlines.

 

[fly girl]

Airlines are always looking to save money. If a company reinvented a comfortable seat that was lighter in weight they would surely consider it. But they aren't plunking down money unless it is projected to be more profitable year after year. Any advantage an airline can get in passenger satisfaction they consider. They want you to keep coming back to them. Loyalty is big. However, they aren't adding anything that could cause more headaches. An inoperative seat is revenue lost. They aren't taking any chances when it comes to that.

I don't know. All I know is when we were on a flight, pilot wouldn't take off because there wasn't a proper distribution of weight with passengers in their seats. So, us passengers had to shift to proper seating spots to balance the plane. Kind of scary if you think about it. We've been flying with carry-ons and not once has our carry-ons been weighed by the airlines.

You were likely on a plane that was pretty empty and they have to adjust to give equal balance. I remember torso sized sand bags being loaded in the front passenger seats to even out weight and balance on flights back in the day. Not scary, just science. They are prepared to handle this. Most times this is done before you have boarded and your seat assignment could have changed. Sounds like that didn't occur on your flight. Captain was on top of it and made sure it was properly balanced. Planes are typically full so this doesn't happen so often anymore.

Airlines account for your carry on. They put an average weight on it too, just like people. As @kdonnel stated, around 190 for passenger and bag. They use 163lbs for passengers in summer. So 27lbs for your carry on. You will have some that go over, and some that don't. It evens out. They also know you have to hoist the thing up in the overhead. They know most of us can't lift 50lb bags over our heads.

 

[sam_gordon]

I don't know. All I know is when we were on a flight, pilot wouldn't take off because there wasn't a proper distribution of weight with passengers in their seats. So, us passengers had to shift to proper seating spots to balance the plane. Kind of scary if you think about it. We've been flying with carry-ons and not once has our carry-ons been weighed by the airlines.

But again, it would be a forward/aft thing. Weight and balance doesn't apply top (carry on stowage) and bottom (checked luggage).

W & B is important when flying. If too much weight is forward of the center of gravity (not the wings), then it can be difficult to pull the plane's nose up and increase altitude. If too much weight is aft, it can be difficult to push the nose down and not stall. As @fly girl said, this is not scary, just science. Calculating W&B is done as part of training for a pilot's license.

 

[tony67]

At checkin you get on the scale with your checked and carry on baggage.

Yeah - that will go down really well - especially when you have people already complaining about how the airline treat larger people.
They also cant ask because people will lie - have seen that on smaller planes where its much more important.
Also - they are not going to weight people with their bags - they want the bags separate so they can charge more.

BTW - I am not against this and I think they should be more strict with larger people - its not fair to those that get stuck next to them. I'm no skinny Minnie - but I also don't take up my neighbors space and have an attitude about it. They really need to add an option to buy a second seat at a reasonable price.