Rotten Monorail

[OKW Lover]

Think of it like a car. After so long they may not make the parts for it or whatnot so it becomes something obsolete. The monorails are pretty much there.

The problem with this analogy is that these vehicles were custom made for WDW. Bombardier made them (and presumably some spare parts) under contract with Disney. Disney has the technical expertise to make pretty much any replacement part that would be needed for these trains.

 

[OKW Lover]

dont feed in to that age old agument.

Well, it was such a well reasoned statement.

 

[zaccaglin]

The problem with this analogy is that these vehicles were custom made for WDW. Bombardier made them (and presumably some spare parts) under contract with Disney. Disney has the technical expertise to make pretty much any replacement part that would be needed for these trains.

This is all true, however Disney contracts out much of the manufacturing of parts anymore. Disney want to take responsibility for anything. That's part of the reason why we haven't seen Coral online for just shy of a year now and won't for many many more months.

 

[MillauFr]

why?

It is very expensive to maintain. Hard if not impossible to get parts. Expensive to operate. Difficult for people in wheelchairs and scooters to access. Relatively low people moving capacity.

Taxpayers in Seattle got fleeced for $100m by the monorail authority that was trying to expand our system here. They eventually realized the system is a joke and not a real option for moving a large number of people.

 

[DisneyWorldBabe]

Is the monorail running on a "reduced schedule" right now? Or through the end of September?
We will be at the Poly 9/26 - 10/1, so wondering what we can expect during our stay.
Thanks!

 

[mikedoyleblogger]

It is very expensive to maintain. Hard if not impossible to get parts. Expensive to operate. Difficult for people in wheelchairs and scooters to access. Relatively low people moving capacity.

Taxpayers in Seattle got fleeced for $100m by the monorail authority that was trying to expand our system here. They eventually realized the system is a joke and not a real option for moving a large number of people.

What are you talking about? Unless Bombardier suddenly went out of business Disney can easily contract with them to provide necessary parts. And even if they decided not to, they could do exactly what they did at Disneyland and refurb the monorails from the chassis outward completely in-house. Those issues would apply just as well to a light rail system, too.

Scooters and wheelchairs can roll on and off the monorail with manual platform extenders (in exactly the same way the process works here in Chicago on the L) and all stations and trains are accessible. This would not change with a light rail system.

In cities across Japan and China, monorails are a fundamental part of their rail transit systems. But when you're only talking about a system with six stations, arguments about citywide usefulness make no sense.

You've raised no legitimate reasons for the monorail system at Walt Disney World to be replaced with anything else. It simply needs a modern train operation system, which is currently being rolled out. Monorail issues have nothing to do with cost of operation, aging vehicles, or a poor choice of mode.

 

[joelkfla]

What are you talking about? Unless Bombardier suddenly went out of business Disney can easily contract with them to provide necessary parts. And even if they decided not to, they could do exactly what they did at Disneyland and refurb the monorails from the chassis outward completely in-house. Those issues would apply just as well to a light rail system, too.

Disney sued Bombardier over issues with the trains, so they're probably not on the best of terms. I doubt the original dies and tools are still around after almost 30 years. Disney might be able to talk Bombardier into building parts, but I don't think it would be easy or cheap.

The DL monorail rebuild was outsourced. I think WDW Monorail Peach was rebuilt in-house from the remains of the 2 wrecked trains, but it took them over a year to rebuild a single train. And WDW monorails are transit vehicles, while DL monorails are ride vehicles. I would expect rebuilding a WDW train to be much more complex than rebuilding a DL train.

 

[mikedoyleblogger]

The DL monorail rebuild was engineered by WDI but, yes, outsourced for construction, I stand corrected. The DL monorail is a primary transit option for guests traveling from (and especially parking at) the west side of Downtown Disney and the Disneyland Hotel, taken by thousands of guests a day. It has not been, as you say "a ride vehicle", since the monorail first left the park and traveled to the original Disneyland Hotel station, 55 years ago. The only reason it requires a ticket it's because it stops within Disneyland. If the monorail stopped within Magic Kingdom or Epcot at Walt Disney World, then it would require a ticket there, too.

In terms of complexity, the M-Vs at Disneyland were essentially smaller versions of the M-IVs at Walt Disney World. Since DL's M-VIIs are built on the chassis of the former M-Vs, they're akin to WDW's older monorail stock with updated systems and signals.

Which is exactly the kind of update that the monorail system is receiving st

 

[McGovMama]

How about the middle of the night?

I agree. Middle of the night makes the most sense or during midday on off peak season would also be a slow time.

 

[maxiesmom]

I agree. Middle of the night makes the most sense or during midday on off peak season would also be a slow time.

Middle of the night, as has been pointed out, is a very short time. Especially when you factor in extended park hours and Extra Magic Hours. Right now they are working on it during the middle of the day, which has some guests in a tizzy.

 

[joelkfla]

The DL monorail is a primary transit option for guests traveling from (and especially parking at) the west side of Downtown Disney and the Disneyland Hotel, taken by thousands of guests a day. It has not been, as you say "a ride vehicle", since the monorail first left the park and traveled to the original Disneyland Hotel station, 55 years ago. The only reason it requires a ticket it's because it stops within Disneyland. If the monorail stopped within Magic Kingdom or Epcot at Walt Disney World, then it would require a ticket there, too.

The MarkVII's were rebuilt in Canada by a ride manufacturing company. The MarkVi's were built by a transit vehicle manufacturer.

It's been many years since I visited DL on a frequent basis, and I never stayed at DL Hotel, but as I remember it, there were a lot more riders riding the monorail as an attraction than ones getting on or off at the hotel. Maybe it's different at park opening & closing; I don't know. I always though the tram that ran between the hotel and the entrance plaza was the primary mode of transportation, and the monorail a fun alternative.

At WDW, the monorails are operated by the Transportation department, which also operates the buses and watercraft. Who operates them at DL? Again, I don't know, but I suspect they're operated by DL Attractions.

The WDW & DL Railroads also carry thousands of Guests between Main St. and the other stops in the parks, but they are considered attractions, not transit systems.

 

[dreiwhit]

Unless Bombardier suddenly went out of business Disney can easily contract with them to provide necessary parts.

Bombardier Transportation is still around. However.....

I doubt the original dies and tools are still around after almost 30 years. Disney might be able to talk Bombardier into building parts, but I don't think it would be easy or cheap.

Correct. Usually what happens in that business is that once the contract is fullfilled, unless additional orders for the same type have come in, the assembly line is shut down for good, never to restart. So if Disney went back to Bombardier and said "build us monorail train sets like you did xx years ago", Bombardier will tell them that they can not build them the same exact monorail train set, but they can build them completely new ones. Of course, since its low volume and very unique (limited to no opportunity for other sales) production, its going to be very expensive.

And, depending on how unique the parts for the monorail system are, it may become more difficult over the years to acquire replacement parts. You can get companies to make new parts, but again, its a one off and very expensive.

Light rail, although expensive to build (the last figure I heard was $1 million per mile, probably would be much more at Disney World since its elevated) would be much easier to acquire train sets, cars and spare parts, since additional train sets can be added to existing contracts. Additionally, light rail trainsets are not a unique system, used cars and engines are available for refurbishment. Not to mention, there are always going to be companies selling light rail train sets, so you can always acquire newer, different models by adding an order to an existing contract. You don't have to buy the exact same thing.

Don't forget that NYC had an elevated rail system in the 19th century, and Chicago still does. The technology and engineering isn't impossible, its just going to cost money.

FWIW, Wikipedia says the monorail system at WDW is the 5th largest in the world, roughly 23 miles of monorail track. Numbers 1 through 4 are in China, Japan and South Korea.

 

[OKW Lover]

Disney sued Bombardier over issues with the trains, so they're probably not on the best of terms.

The suit was about performance issues. The trains were drawing more power than the spec's quoted which resulted in WDW having to upgrade the power systems supplying the monorail buss bar. The suit was to cover the cost of those upgrades.

And WDW monorails are transit vehicles, while DL monorails are ride vehicles. I would expect rebuilding a WDW train to be much more complex than rebuilding a DL train.

Hard to understand the distinction here. The trains don't appear to be any more complex.

Usually what happens in that business is that once the contract is fullfilled, unless additional orders for the same type have come in, the assembly line is shut down for good, never to restart. So if Disney went back to Bombardier and said "build us monorail train sets like you did xx years ago", Bombardier will tell them that they can not build them the same exact monorail train set, but they can build them completely new ones.

I wouldn't expect Disney to ask the manufacturer to build new monorails to the technology that was prevalent 25 years ago. I'd expect they would want current technology.

 

[JohnDaleswife]

I think if the monorail is on a reduced schedule, then all the rooms at the monorail resorts should be on a reduced price.

 

[keishashadow]

I'd love to see it happen, but the cost would be very expensive. High enough that the Disney corporate bean counters would have a heart attack just looking at it....

Likely not too keen on scheduling workers during the night/wee hours of the morning either, especially when a shift differential might come into play as to skilled technicians/trades

The monorail is just fine for doing what it was designed to do: moving large numbers of people between MK & TTC, and between TTC & Epcot. It just needs to be updated with modern equipment: new trains, and a new integrated control system without skimping on computing power and redundancy, and perhaps a complete replacement of the busbar and any other failing or inadequate power distribution components.

Unfortunately, Disney's recent history shows a failure of will to spend the capital required to complete projects as they should be completed. Even if a new system like light rail were built, it would probably be grand in design but half-baked in implementation.

The monorail is still doing what it was designed to do, usually. Last few years I've come to expect delays, perhaps that's exactly by design, the new norm.

IMO a monorail that is safe and that operates on schedule is a need, not a want. IMO WDW has it reversed.

 

[Polydweller]

I think if the monorail is on a reduced schedule, then all the rooms at the monorail resorts should be on a reduced price.

Really?

1. The reduced schedule is for the express rail that doesn't serve the resorts. Only the resort rail serves the resorts. Nothing to compensate for.

2. The monorail is not an essential and not necessarily a reason one stays there. We have stayed at the Poly each of the last 26 years and some other years before. Not once was it a reason to stay there and we have probably used it in about 6 of those years. Far prefer the resort launch.

This current scheduling is primarily being done to install the automation system and is being done with Thales. Things have not been going well with Thales and they have fallen behind. This work often requires seeing what happens at several control points. It cannot be done at night. That's not to say Disney isn't taking advantage of down time to do other things, who wouldn't.

 

[zaccaglin]

Is the monorail running on a "reduced schedule" right now? Or through the end of September?
We will be at the Poly 9/26 - 10/1, so wondering what we can expect during our stay.
Thanks!

There is a thread devetoed to this on page 2 of the transportation board.

I agree. Middle of the night makes the most sense or during midday on off peak season would also be a slow time.

Middle of the night, as has been pointed out, is a very short time. Especially when you factor in extended park hours and Extra Magic Hours. Right now they are working on it during the middle of the day, which has some guests in a tizzy.

They are doing both night and day work. Just not as many hours in the night.

The MarkVII's were rebuilt in Canada by a ride manufacturing company. The MarkVi's were built by a transit vehicle manufacturer.

It's been many years since I visited DL on a frequent basis, and I never stayed at DL Hotel, but as I remember it, there were a lot more riders riding the monorail as an attraction than ones getting on or off at the hotel. Maybe it's different at park opening & closing; I don't know. I always though the tram that ran between the hotel and the entrance plaza was the primary mode of transportation, and the monorail a fun alternative.

At WDW, the monorails are operated by the Transportation department, which also operates the buses and watercraft. Who operates them at DL? Again, I don't know, but I suspect they're operated by DL Attractions.

The WDW & DL Railroads also carry thousands of Guests between Main St. and the other stops in the parks, but they are considered attractions, not transit systems.

DLR monorails are operated by the Tomorrowland attractions business unit. They are considered a form of transportation but not a ride.

The suit was about performance issues. The trains were drawing more power than the spec's quoted which resulted in WDW having to upgrade the power systems supplying the monorail buss bar. The suit was to cover the cost of those upgrades.



Hard to understand the distinction here. The trains don't appear to be any more complex.

The suit was primarily over bombardier/TGI's failure to deliver trains on schedule. Bombardier doesn't have anything to do with Disney after the last train was deliver and the warranty period ended. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...ney-world-bombardier-disney-polynesian-resort

I think if the monorail is on a reduced schedule, then all the rooms at the monorail resorts should be on a reduced price.

Closures barely affect the resort be my only early shut down and late opening.

 

[zaccaglin]

Disney sued Bombardier over issues with the trains, so they're probably not on the best of terms. I doubt the original dies and tools are still around after almost 30 years. Disney might be able to talk Bombardier into building parts, but I don't think it would be easy or cheap.

The DL monorail rebuild was outsourced. I think WDW Monorail Peach was rebuilt in-house from the remains of the 2 wrecked trains, but it took them over a year to rebuild a single train. And WDW monorails are transit vehicles, while DL monorails are ride vehicles. I would expect rebuilding a WDW train to be much more complex than rebuilding a DL train.

Peach was built from the ground up by WDI and central shops here's in FL. Only the frame was reused from the damaged ends of pink/purple to build it. It took almost two years before it fully came online. Teal was built from the undamaged ends of pink/purple and was online in about 5months.

Disneyland was outsourced but it was completely designed by WDI. Disneyland trains are essentially smaller versions of WDW trains, after all WDW trains were designed after the DLR system. The trains have the same motor control system, same braking control system, same vehicle on board computer (black box), mapo system, power system components, and even the same heat detection system. The biggest difference is that DLR trains are not omnidirectional, and that their cast isn't trained on all the systems like WDW pilots are. DLR trains essentially have a check engine light, when it come on the CM notifies the lead, and action from maintenance is taken from there. At WDW the pilot is told exactly what's happening with the train and notifies the central controller from there the pilot will be directed to preform tasks to trouble shoot. Rebuilding a WDW train would be no harder or easier than a DLR train, it's just getting Disney to do it.

 

[zaccaglin]

Correct. Usually what happens in that business is that once the contract is fullfilled, unless additional orders for the same type have come in, the assembly line is shut down for good, never to restart. So if Disney went back to Bombardier and said "build us monorail train sets like you did xx years ago", Bombardier will tell them that they can not build them the same exact monorail train set, but they can build them completely new ones. Of course, since its low volume and very unique (limited to no opportunity for other sales) production, its going to be very expensive.

And, depending on how unique the parts for the monorail system are, it may become more difficult over the years to acquire replacement parts. You can get companies to make new parts, but again, its a one off and very expensive.

You got it. Bombardier only built the 12 trains for WDW on that line and the (3? 4?) trains for Las Vegas on that line. Both sets of trains were built on the plans made by WDW and bombardier. Now here's the kicker, any train that would have to be built for Disney would have to be designed from the ground up, for the WDW and Las Vegas systems are the only ones in the world that travel on a 26" wide beamway. DLRs is more narrow, and the systems in Seattle, Europe, and Asia are much more wider..

And speaking about companies making parts for the trains that's what happened with a local company contracted to help get coral back on line.... They're still awaiting parts....

 

[joelkfla]

Peach was built from the ground up by WDI and central shops here's in FL. Only the frame was reused from the damaged ends of pink/purple to build it. It took almost two years before it fully came online. Teal was built from the undamaged ends of pink/purple and was online in about 5months.

Disneyland was outsourced but it was completely designed by WDI. Disneyland trains are essentially smaller versions of WDW trains, after all WDW trains were designed after the DLR system. The trains have the same motor control system, same braking control system, same vehicle on board computer (black box), mapo system, power system components, and even the same heat detection system. The biggest difference is that DLR trains are not omnidirectional, and that their cast isn't trained on all the systems like WDW pilots are. DLR trains essentially have a check engine light, when it come on the CM notifies the lead, and action from maintenance is taken from there. At WDW the pilot is told exactly what's happening with the train and notifies the central controller from there the pilot will be directed to preform tasks to trouble shoot. Rebuilding a WDW train would be no harder or easier than a DLR train, it's just getting Disney to do it.

Thanks for the education.