Restaurants being "dumbed down"

[AndreaDM]

I've been reading a lot of posts over the past year or so from folks who are convinced that the evil dining plan is the sole reason for the decline in Disney dining. I'm not so sure. I've also been reading lots of posts from folks who have special diet requests and needs (it seems like every family has at least one, ours included as I'm allergic to shellfish). I know that Disney chefs go above and beyond to accomodate everyone and I'm wondering if they've simplified the menus to be able to do so? Making food more generic and less "exotic" across the board to more easily be able to make substitutions. I think what guests tend to forget is that their family is not the only one dining at a certain restaurant on that day with special requests. Just to keep track of all the ADRs that list allergies, gluten-free, diabetic, etc. not to mention the multitude of picky eaters has got to be overwhelming! Everyone wants to get the perfect ADR time, be seated on time OR early, get their food right away and the food better be perfect, but they forget what's going on behind the scenes where the chefs are making sure little Tommy with the peanut allergy doesn't get any cross contaminates and that diabetic grandpa gets the sugar free dessert instead of the regular one. Fewer choice and more generic food = few chances to screw up all the special requests. I give ALL the CMs who have to deal with all our pickiness, special requests and diet needs major props because I still think they go above and beyond compared to any other restaurants or vacation spots I've been too.

Just some food for thought (pun intended )

 

[Nadjalu]

I tend to agree with you. Free dining is not the cause for the changes occuring in WDW restaurants.

More people than ever before our exposed to "fine dining" or are at least aware of it, thanks to the food network, Hell's Kitchen and the other tons of food shows. So the demand has been increased, with demand comes the ability to keep up and with WDW being the #1 vacation destination it has had to "streamline" in order to deal with the masses now expecting "finer dining".
WDW has been known for it's food and dining experiences. And people who don't have options of fine dining now expect that out of their WDW vacation. People who were fine with the burger/hot dog fare while on vacation.
And I think that WDW is in transition to still keep up the expectations while trying to balance "actually doing it".

Our country is not in it's best state financially and cuts are being made everywhere. Food is one cut everyone takes early on. And Disney is no exception.
Personally I think they are doing well to keep the tradition of a nice sit down meal without cutting everything "fine" in their menus.
Sure cuts have been made, things are streamlined but not everything wonderful has been removed.

Is it what it once was....No. Is it what it will always be....No.

Change is always happening and will continue to be.

 

[AndreaDM]

I know the owner of the local grocery chain and he said the food network shows have been the bane of his existence. People see the gourmet dishes being made, think they're a world class chef all of a sudden, come into his store and demand he start carrying xyz items which he does, they purchase it once, then he's left with excess ingredients. All of a sudden everyone's a "foodie" (god I hate that term) and wants the best food and wants it now, but still wants it affordable.

 

[TisBit]

I've been reading a lot of posts over the past year or so from folks who are convinced that the evil dining plan is the sole reason for the decline in Disney dining. I'm not so sure. I've also been reading lots of posts from folks who have special diet requests and needs (it seems like every family has at least one, ours included as I'm allergic to shellfish). I know that Disney chefs go above and beyond to accomodate everyone and I'm wondering if they've simplified the menus to be able to do so? Making food more generic and less "exotic" across the board to more easily be able to make substitutions. I think what guests tend to forget is that their family is not the only one dining at a certain restaurant on that day with special requests. Just to keep track of all the ADRs that list allergies, gluten-free, diabetic, etc. not to mention the multitude of picky eaters has got to be overwhelming! Everyone wants to get the perfect ADR time, be seated on time OR early, get their food right away and the food better be perfect, but they forget what's going on behind the scenes where the chefs are making sure little Tommy with the peanut allergy doesn't get any cross contaminates and that diabetic grandpa gets the sugar free dessert instead of the regular one. Fewer choice and more generic food = few chances to screw up all the special requests. I give ALL the CMs who have to deal with all our pickiness, special requests and diet needs major props because I still think they go above and beyond compared to any other restaurants or vacation spots I've been too.

Just some food for thought (pun intended )

I think you are right on those reasons, but you also cannot discount the "health nuts" that would love to splash WDW up on the news as having the worst, highest calorie foods in the nation, etc. When they attempt to cut the calories and make it healthier, you end up with stuff like the crappy wheat buns for burgers, less oils, butters, fats...which will generally translate into less flavors.

There are a lot of competing problems in the food service industry and especially at WDW. Free dining might be the only saving grace for the restaurants and more of effect and not the cause....

 

[AmberHeartsDisney]

You make a good point.


It ways easier to add something then remove it.

 

[DonaldDuck 117]

Yea, I never eat out at nice places, So when i get to Disney, I'm LIke this all rules..
sort of have no clue what must of the people on here are talking about the food being horrible here and there, everywhere I have been I have loved and saw it as special. So perhaps it's a good thing, it makes Disney that more special to me!
lol

 

[Cafeen]

And, as I've mentioned several times , totally agree.

My belief is more along the lines of the following (however, since I wasn't around it's pure speculation and deduction)...

Pre DDP, Disney was seeing an issue with restaurant profitability. They had issues filling seats in restaurants. They may be busy at the ultra-peak hours, but outside of that they were sitting on their hands. They needed butts in seats. To do this, they came up with the Dining Plan (which, even if you're against it, you have to admit is a brilliant piece of work). This would offer a simple method for guests to keep track of what's offered and drive up the demand for the TS locations. To entice guests to purchase the plans, they priced them such that the average family, if doing some planning ahead, would save a chunk of change. This works under the premise that it's more profitable to have 90% occupancy with people paying 80% of the cost than having 30% occupancy with people paying 100% of the cost.

So, the DDP and all the debate was born (well, the debate was conceived, it will be born in a little bit). However, Disney was not satisfied with the increase in profits from the volume alone (for whatever reason, not actually high enough, wanted more to fill the coin vault, whatever) and decided to start cutting out the less than profitable menu items. These were the one-offs and rare things that only a few people would pick up, or that were just too high cost to justify selling.

Eventually, they also started cutting costs by assimilating all the ingredients, it's cheaper for one place to buy 100lbs of potatoes than it is for 10 places to buy 10lbs each. This drove the quality issue, as they tended toward the lower end of the spectrum rather than seeking out the very best (which they'd then have to either eat the increase, or pass off to the customer).

And now, we sit today, with super high demand tables with fewer and less unique offerings all made by the same batches of ingredients. The DDP does take some of the blame, due to the way it's structured, but I don't believe for a minute that the menus wouldn't have been trimmed and ingredient quality wouldn't have been lowered if the DDP never existed (in fact, they could have been reduced more, since bigger cuts could have been needed to make the restaurants profitable).

Now, all of that, and I loved just about every place I went to last year and the year before. Out of ~9 TS meals in 2009 and ~18 in 2010, I only dislikes 1900 PF breakfast (2009) and Maya Grill (2010) and both of them I can understand. 1900 PF just seemed like an off-day, and Maya Grill was purely the chef/cook's fault (bland food mostly, which isn't the fault of the ingredients at all, but the recipe or prep).

At least, that's my take on the chain of events. So while the quality "suffered" after the DDP was announced, it wasn't solely due to the DDP itself.

 

[ElizabethB]

People always had allergies -- even when the food was good.

It's the DDP and Free Dining that are to blame.

 

[goofy4tink]

I have to disagree with the 'butts in seats' comment. I have been going to WDW since '99....at least once a year and more often than not, twice a year, with some years having 3 trips planned.
The restaurants were certainly not empty back then. They were full. What was empty were rooms. Once Disney gets you in a room, it's not a problem to get you into the restaurant. So, along came the DDP. Then, the free dining...talk about win/win for Disney. Fewer food options, and allow no room discounts. Money maker for them. It costs Disney less to have people eating 'free' food than it does to have empty resort rooms.

There has been a decline in food offerings at the restaurants. While I understand that there are people with allergies, they should be able to plan for it beforehand. Having guests with food allergies shouldn't mean that everyone else gets fewer options. I mean seriously, what happens if someone with a peanut allergy touches a railing that a peanut butter smeared hand just dragged on??? Or someone with another allergy touches a door handle that an offending bit is on??? I understand having allergies, I truly do.
I just don't think Disney has dumbed down the restaurant offerings due to food allergies. Yes, the chefs are wondeful about getting you what you want. My dd is traveling to WDW next year, after graduation, with two other girls. One of the girls is allergic to everything...I kid you not. She can eat about 5 things. There is going to be a ton of worry until she gets home, but she's going off to college after that so her parents have to allow her to make choices. BUT, my point is that I'm sure that Disney will be able to make some things for her....at least plain white rice!! Yeah, it's that bad. But basically, the three girls are doing a grocery delivery service so they can eat a lot in their room so as to alleviate any reactions for their friend. You do what you have to do. Unfortunately, this poor girl can't simply choose a different restaurant...they are all going to be an issue.

Dining at WDW used to be fun. You could get different food at various restaurants. NOt so much nowadays. If you want something different, be prepared to pay for it...signature dining. So, that's what we're doing in Oct...more 2 TS places than ever before.

While I have used the dining plan in the past, it is generally not a money saver for us...at least not the regular DDP. Using the deluxe plan in Oct is saving us money but only because we are doing a lot of character breakfasts, no lunch and a signature dinner. The thing that most people forget to add in is the needed tip...adds up after a week.

 

[AndreaDM]

People always had allergies -- even when the food was good.

It's the DDP and Free Dining that are to blame.

Well, I politely disagree with you. Yes, people may have had allergies but it's NEVER been this prevalent before. I'm 41 years old and NEVER had a kid in any of my classes at school have a peanut allergy, but all 3 of my girls had multiple kids at school with peanut allergies, celiac disease and diabetes. I (obviously since I'm not a medical professional) don't know what's causing it, but there is an epidemic of allergies and eating disorders. And I do think people expect more from restaurants than ever, if there's one thing on the menu they can't eat they expect to be catered to and have a special dish prepared. People come to this board, hear that something special was done for someone and immediately assume they can pretty much plan their own menus at Disney. I'm allergic to shellfish but I don't make a big to-do about it, I simply know I can't eat it and if there is any dish that is questionable, I ask about it. There is ALWAYS something to be found to eat.

 

[hildarumpole]

I saw a program on the Food Network about Disney a few years ago. They interviewed one of the chefs. He said they work hard at coming up with recipes that will appeal to a wide variety of people of all age groups from different regions of the U.S. and the world. They want people to feel comfortable in all their restaurants. So, if the food seems dumbed down, it may have more to do with trying to satisfy different tastebuds.

 

[wdwpirates]

I know the owner of the local grocery chain and he said the food network shows have been the bane of his existence. People see the gourmet dishes being made, think they're a world class chef all of a sudden, come into his store and demand he start carrying xyz items which he does, they purchase it once, then he's left with excess ingredients. All of a sudden everyone's a "foodie" (god I hate that term) and wants the best food and wants it now, but still wants it affordable.

Foodie is my least favorite word in the English language!!! Hate it!!!

 

[Cafeen]

Well, I politely disagree with you. Yes, people may have had allergies but it's NEVER been this prevalent before. I'm 41 years old and NEVER had a kid in any of my classes at school have a peanut allergy, but all 3 of my girls had multiple kids at school with peanut allergies, celiac disease and diabetes. I (obviously since I'm not a medical professional) don't know what's causing it, but there is an epidemic of allergies and eating disorders. And I do think people expect more from restaurants than ever, if there's one thing on the menu they can't eat they expect to be catered to and have a special dish prepared. People come to this board, hear that something special was done for someone and immediately assume they can pretty much plan their own menus at Disney. I'm allergic to shellfish but I don't make a big to-do about it, I simply know I can't eat it and if there is any dish that is questionable, I ask about it. There is ALWAYS something to be found to eat.

While not the entire answer, like autism and adhd, I believe a big part of it is diagnosis. Before, it used to be that you didn't feel well after eating a few things and you just avoided them. Now it's determined it's actually an allergy causing you to not feel well and they can now work around it.

So, it's not like it's something in the water causing the issues, but moreso that the issues are more readily found. At least, for this case, in part. There does seem to be a larger prevalence of more dangerous allergies now a days as well, when before they'd be pretty well known as well.

I have to disagree with the 'butts in seats' comment. I have been going to WDW since '99....at least once a year and more often than not, twice a year, with some years having 3 trips planned.
The restaurants were certainly not empty back then. They were full. What was empty were rooms. ...

I snipped the rest as it didn't really apply to me

Like another thread, I can only go by what I've heard, and common anecdotal responses were all about being able to walk-in to nearly all the restaurants back in the day (and blaming the DDP on this no longer being the case). This, while great for the customer, is not so great for the establishment. Logic lead me to my theories above (which this time, I stated as theories ). If it wasn't the case, then certainly the rooms had a similar effect, and this easily leads into the snipping off of menu items that were less popular and more expensive, as the restaurants were not seeing such a large increase in volume.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

This is because it is a victim of the Basic Disney Dining Plan!

Unfortunately, many people on the DDP, whether they pay for it directly or paying a higher rate for their room and getting "free" dining, look to the highest price items on the menu. This is based either on the attitude of "I paid for it and can get whatever I want" or "as long as it's free, let's get the best items".

For example, at The Wave there is a $16.00 difference in price between the lowest price adult lunch entree and the highest price dinner entree. Each restaurant receives a fixed dollar amount credit for each meal sold under DDP. Each restaurant has to make a profit.

As food costs go up it takes more money to operate a restaurant.

So as things progress more and more of the higher end cost items will vanish.

The signature restaurants do not have so much of a problem as they get paid double the regular restaurants.

If they ever do away with the Basic DDP within about six months you will find a lot more high end selections at all the restaurants.

 

[AndreaDM]

So CF would you say that the lesser priced items might be of higher quality? That the expensive items are the ones being cheapened? We plan on just ordering what we want this year on the deluxe plan, so I was just curious. For example I plan to get the chicken salad at CRT which is ridiculous for 2 credits, but I'm hoping it's still good quality.

 

[BabsBunny]

This is because it is a victim of the Basic Disney Dining Plan!

Unfortunately, many people on the DDP, whether they pay for it directly or paying a higher rate for their room and getting "free" dining, look to the highest price items on the menu. This is based either on the attitude of "I paid for it and can get whatever I want" or "as long as it's free, let's get the best items".

For example, at The Wave there is a $16.00 difference in price between the lowest price adult lunch entree and the highest price dinner entree. Each restaurant receives a fixed dollar amount credit for each meal sold under DDP. Each restaurant has to make a profit.

As food costs go up it takes more money to operate a restaurant.

So as things progress more and more of the higher end cost items will vanish.

The signature restaurants do not have so much of a problem as they get paid double the regular restaurants.

If they ever do away with the Basic DDP within about six months you will find a lot more high end selections at all the restaurants.

ITA. Remember when Captain Jack's offered lobster when the dining plan first started? People caught onto that real fast. Going to CJ's for the lobster was a hot topic on the DIS. Well that option is no longer. So those of us who pay OOP and want a lobster dish have to go to a signature restaurant. The other sit downs only offer what seems to be mass prepared, over-priced choices of steak, chicken, pasta and possibly fish that run between $22 and $28.

Obviously it's not bad enough to stop us food lovers from coming back. It is what it is. You learn to work with it. For example, for our upcoming five-night trip, we'll do a signature (I think they are still doing a great job), House of Blues (for the kids--and you can't screw up a burger) and probably Bongo's (it's not on the plan, takes no ADR's and has a large menu). The other two nights we'll order pizza and prepare our own meal at OKW.

 

[Buckimion]

you can't screw up a burger.

Disney does quite well here.

 

[eliza61]

People always had allergies -- even when the food was good.

It's the DDP and Free Dining that are to blame.

People with allergies have always been around.

Dumb down menus allows you

1) huge mark up profit on foodstuff. You can buy the cheapest quality items on the market and in bulk.
2) Really don't have to worry about having true "chefs". You can get pretty much anyone to staff your kitchen and then since the restaurant food is so generic you can move them wherever there is a need.
3) Allows you to "discount". for some reason humans eyes glaze over whenever we see the word "free". No matter if the item is some thing we don't want or don't need or if meeting the requirements for the "free" items means it's not really "free". as long as we see that word, we're like lambs to the slaughter. we line up happy.

 

[ElizabethB]

The quality of food and dining at WDW has fallen so much from, say, a decade ago, that -- except for an occasional lunch -- we go only to the signature restaurants. We would never try to do a 1TS restaurant for dinner.

And, believe me, that was definitely not the case a few years ago. We loved places like Chefs de France for dinner. The food was delicious and the ambience pleasant and relaxed. Now, the food quality is poor and the place is a circus. We used to love, love, love Wolfgang Puck Cafe. Now that it takes DDP, the menu offers about 1/4 of the choices it used to and we were quite disappointed with our last meal and have not bothered to return.

Sadly, after a couple of disappointing years, we are also down to only a few of signature restaurants at which we will dine. Off our list are: Artist Point, California Grill and Yachtsman Steakhouse. We will do Narcoosee's but never get the lobster since it is so ridiculously overpriced when paying out of pocket and is always small and tough (unlike years past when we loved it).

We find that, more and more, we are dining solely at those restaurants that do not take DDP and, therefore, have maintained their quality (and actually at prices that are often more reasonable than those at the signature restaurants): Il Mulino, Shula's and Fulton's. With these and Jiko we can just about get through a week if we also drive over to Universal and eat at Bice, Emeril's and Chop Tschoup.

I do not blame this decline in the quality of Disney dining on children's allergies, or diabetes or celiac disease -- all of which existed a decade ago when the food was good! Plus, I challenge anyone to demonstrate how changes in Disney menus over the last few years address these problems. Yes, the chef will come out and talk to you and tell you what you can eat -- but chefs also did that when the food was good.

Instead, I put the blame solely on the DDP. Food is very cheap (even good food) for restaurants to buy in bulk. And, the markup has always been huge. So, Disney execs (clearly given an assignment to 1) fill hotels in slow times and 2) ensure that WDW remained competitive with cruise lines and all-inclusive hotels) came up with the DDP (a cheaper version of the long existing deluxe plans that hardly anyone ever bought). Then, hotel execs got the brilliant idea -- hey, if we get rack rate for the hotel room, it's pretty cheap to throw some food in with rack rate.

From there, we have devolved to the present situation -- Disney is cannabilizing its restaurants and former fine dining experiences in order to keep hotel rooms full during a huge economic downturn.

Okay. I understand it. But, I don't have to like it.

 

[Pakey]

The quality of food and dining at WDW has fallen so much from, say, a decade ago, that -- except for an occasional lunch -- we go only to the signature restaurants. We would never try to do a 1TS restaurant for dinner.

And, believe me, that was definitely not the case a few years ago. We loved places like Chefs de France for dinner. The food was delicious and the ambience pleasant and relaxed. Now, the food quality is poor and the place is a circus. We used to love, love, love Wolfgang Puck Cafe. Now that it takes DDP, the menu offers about 1/4 of the choices it used to and we were quite disappointed with our last meal and have not bothered to return.

Sadly, after a couple of disappointing years, we are also down to only a few of signature restaurants at which we will dine. Off our list are: Artist Point, California Grill and Yachtsman Steakhouse. We will do Narcoosee's but never get the lobster since it is so ridiculously overpriced when paying out of pocket and is always small and tough (unlike years past when we loved it).

We find that, more and more, we are dining solely at those restaurants that do not take DDP and, therefore, have maintained their quality (and actually at prices that are often more reasonable than those at the signature restaurants): Il Mulino, Shula's and Fulton's. With these and Jiko we can just about get through a week if we also drive over to Universal and eat at Bice, Emeril's and Chop Tschoup.

I do not blame this decline in the quality of Disney dining on children's allergies, or diabetes or celiac disease -- all of which existed a decade ago when the food was good! Plus, I challenge anyone to demonstrate how changes in Disney menus over the last few years address these problems. Yes, the chef will come out and talk to you and tell you what you can eat -- but chefs also did that when the food was good.

Instead, I put the blame solely on the DDP. Food is very cheap (even good food) for restaurants to buy in bulk. And, the markup has always been huge. So, Disney execs (clearly given an assignment to 1) fill hotels in slow times and 2) ensure that WDW remained competitive with cruise lines and all-inclusive hotels) came up with the DDP (a cheaper version of the long existing deluxe plans that hardly anyone ever bought). Then, hotel execs got the brilliant idea -- hey, if we get rack rate for the hotel room, it's pretty cheap to throw some food in with rack rate.

From there, we have devolved to the present situation -- Disney is cannabilizing its restaurants and former fine dining experiences in order to keep hotel rooms full during a huge economic downturn.

Okay. I understand it. But, I don't have to like it.

I could not have said it any better. For those who believe that the dining plan restaurants continue to offer wonderful food and dining experiences, they should try the restaurants not on the plan and they should easily see the difference. We now eat at the Swan/Dolphin restaurants with a few signatures (not all because many of them have declined also) or we eat in our villa.

I don't think Disney dining will ever again be what it was in the 90s. It was a brilliant move by Disney to get those rooms filled but we now vacation more often in places where food is still great.