Rental Rates/Concerns

[LisaSt]

If I post a rental on E Bay it is more for having it out there for people to see. Some willnever get bids BUT you do get quite a few inquiries about other dates etc so even if an auction doesn't get any bids doesn't mean it won't rent just to let everyone know and you usually get exactly what you want for it in the buy it now and sometimes more if they want a different week.

 

[TinksDH]

While I see nothing wrong with trying to get what the market will bear, we DO have an article in our contract that states that we purchased DVC for our use and NOT for investment purposes or to make money. That is where I'd draw the line.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by TinksDH
While I see nothing wrong with trying to get what the market will bear, we DO have an article in our contract that states that we purchased DVC for our use and NOT for investment purposes or to make money. That is where I'd draw the line.

That passage is about DVC protecting itself, not about renting per se. It is common in the timeshare world for salesman to entice buyers promising high rentals and resales. This simply says that you understand this is not necesssarily the case, not that you can't do it. The only passage in the legal paperwork it the one talking commercial use, which we've discussed many times. If you want to go through it again, I'm game.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

well someone scooped up this auction, so I guess there is a market out there at this price

 

[LisaSt]

If I was in the same situation I would book 2 or more rooms if need be and have then cancel the one or more rooms I didn't need. I have done this for renters and family trips alike. My extended family was thinking of going with us last Dec but were not 100% sure. So I booked 1 studio and a 2 bedroom I ended up also booking a 1 bedroom no one ended up letting the 2 bdrm and the studio go at about 2 months prior to the trip. I have no problems with this at all again everyone is entitled to do with their points as they see fit within the guidelines of the contract and nowhere in the contract does it say you can't book as many rooms as your points will allow and then release them as you find you do not need them.

 

[WDWDad]

Dean;

That passage is about DVC protecting itself, not about renting per se

Says You.

I have been through this before, and will not go through it again as you and I see these things quite differently. Your opinion, as informed as you believe it to be, is nothing more. Until this is tested in a court of law all of this is just conjecture and opinion. You believe that the law is on your side. Others have reported speaking to attourneys who have other opinions. You can find an attourney to tell you anything you want if you can afford the price. There is enough contradictory language in the POS to make 2 teams of lawyers rich. If someone really wanted to push it I'm sure years could be spent on the issue and subsequent appeals. Let's face it no one not even Disney is going to do that. So what are we left with ?

(b) It is within the current rules to rent(/b)

But if you go out and make a regular habit of renting for maximum dollars, including the rental of hard to get reservations then you take the risk of being thought of as Commercial (Sleazy) renter by those on this board whose motives to purchase DVC were more basic.

 

[Dean]

WDWDad believe what you want. Get a written opinion from a lawyer that specializes in timeshares if it's important to you. Marriott has the same wording in their legal paperwork as well if I recall correctly and they'll even do the rental for you. I get amused at people who bought DVC and think they know about timeshares including the legal wrangling. A casual opinion from a lawyer not familial with these type of things is far less informed than those who know timeshares well. To understand these documents one also needs an understanding of the industry and their tactics, not just the words in a single paragraph or less. Here's the wording on page 29 of my "Disney Vacation Club" POS, that's OKW for those that don't know.

The purchase of an Ownership Interest should be based upon it's value as a vacation experience or for spending leisure time, and not considered for purposes of acquiring an appreciating investment or with an expectation that the Ownership Interest may be rented or resold.

Ownership Interests are offered for personal use and enjoyment only and should not be purchased by an prospective Purchaser for resale or an an investment opportunity or with any expectation of achieving rental income, and tax benefit. Owners attempting to resell or rent their Ownership Interests would have to compete, at a substantial disadvantage, with DVC in the sale or rental of Ownership Interests, and the many restrictions upon the use of an Ownership Interests may adversely affect it's marketability or rentability.

Ownership Interests should also not be purchased with any expectation that any Vacation Home located at the Lack Buena Vista Resort can be rented, or if it is rented, that any particular rental rate can be obtained for such rental.

It goes on to give requirements associated with rentals including fees up to date and that you must make a reservation before you can rent (duh). Then it states

DVD’s approval of a rental by an Owner is not required after a reservation has been made in the renters own name.

This obviously does not prevent renting, only sets the stage for it. The only portion of the POS that one could construe as preventing ANY rentals is the issue of commercial rentals and that is another long and fun discussion and I’m game if you are. Maybe I should reserve Xmas next year and auction it on ebay, if I only had enough points available to do so, LOL.

 

[CVW]

I agree with Dean (I'm always afraid to do otherwise) on the issue of attorneys. With all due respect to my friends in the legal profession, they aren't trained in timeshare. I have other friends in my field (ophthalmology) who spend the first several thousand dollars of their attorney fees just getting their attorneys educated before they ever receive the first bit of useful advice.

So what would a decent real estate attorney do with your first few thousand dollars? He'd want to know how developers and buyers have been interpreting these contracts to their mutual beneficence.

He or she might learn about the renting and trading on the Disboards. He might learn that Marriott actually helps its owners with rentals. He might learn that Bluegreen (where I own another timeshare [Big Cedar]) can sometimes pull rack rates for you and charge you only 35%.

The wording in all those contracts can unquestionably be INTERPRETED to mean that it's okay to rent. The behaviour of Bluegreen and Marriott overtly demonstrates that it's okay to rent. So the truth lies not with us, but with a jury of 12 people.

And this brings us to yet another reason that I encourage my kids to practice medicine instead of selling timeshare. Juries tend to look very favorably toward a doctors being sued--the doctor wins over 90% of jury cases.

But timeshare developers? In a courtroom quite possibly set in Florida?

Keep rentin' buddy.

 

[chainkid]

After reading all the posts about people being inconsiderare rude or obnoxious the list goes onfor people renting their points, my comment would be that I find it extremely offensive that someone would think they have the right to tell me or anyone else who owns alot of points what we should or shouldn't do with them. I have only exhanged points with another DVC member and rented points from another, but I fully intend if the situation arises to rent out my points for what ever the market will bear. This was in my contract when I purchased and its' not breaking the rules. I will put on my flame retardent suit as I say your rights end at the amount of points you have and your willingness to plan ahead for your vacations as I do. If you book at the 7 month window then its a crap shoot as to whether you will be waitlisted or not. If someone who has points at that resort holds a room with their paid for points regardless of who the room is for ...so be it!

 

[CVW]

Chainkid,

You're right. There are a couple of cranky people on this thread. But for the most part, if you picture the rest of us having this conversation at a bar over a few drinks, it becomes much less strident to me. Like arguing over Yankees vs Red Sox or Sooners vs Texas. If I get too vocal, just tell me to pipe down and have some more nachos.

Manning just asked a question if it were true that 90% of medical malpractice trials went in favor of the doctor. When I went to respond, his post had been removed, perhaps because it was considered OT. But if you'll indulge me for a minute, in a way it is on topic.

Yes, 90% of malpractice trials find in favor of the doctor. (That's why most reputable insurance companies refuse to settle. The crisis in malpractice arises because every attorney thinks their case is in the ten percent. The awards in that ten percent are huge. So 10% of complainants make millions, while the other 90 get nothing.)

I have no idea what the statistics are for timeshare litigation. But I do know, for instance, that in the trucking industry, companies usually settle out of court when someone is killed in a tractor-trailer accident. Juries have little sympathy for the big faceless monster trucks.

WHICH BRINGS ME BACK TO TIMESHARE!

If Disney were to attempt to stop rentals, the trial would likely take place in the deep south, where John Edwards got rich by finding sympathetic juries.

They would (hopefully) have to litigate against a 70 year-old widow who lost her husband, and can't bear to go to Disney without him. But that DVC membership is just (*sniff*) too hard to let go of. So she lets her niece Francie rent out her condo each year, and then uses the money to pay her mortgage.

Okay, Disney. Your witness.

 

[pms122765]

There are bad apples that go bad & spoil everything.

I think this is very rare - unless someone has 5000+ pts & does it for a living

 

[DrTomorrow]

Hey, CVW - I'll buy the next round, but could you snag a bucket of peanuts?

And that's a trial I'd like to see on TV; I'm not sure how sympathetic the jury will find a landlord who's spent tens of thousands of dollars on a timeshare. "And is it true that you charge over $1500 for a single Friday night in March for a Boardwalk Grand Villa?"

Hey, maybe they'll make a new "Law and Order" series: "Law and Order: FSI - Florida Timeshare Investigations". And Jerry Orbach would feel right at home!

 

[SoCalKDG]

If Disney really wanted to get rid of renting couldn't they charge $150-$250 for reservations that aren't in the owners name?

Is there anything in writing that would prevent this? If not, this would drastically reduce the renting of points.

By the way, I don't have a problem with renting. Still formulating an opinion on reserving multiple popular weeks with the only intention of renting it out or cancelling later.

 

[chipscinderelly]

The only thing that bothers me about the rent board is the posts that are around high season for DVC - eg December. I know that any owner can do what they want but when they prevent me from getting a room I want (as an owner who stays on her own points not rents them out for profit) it really irks me!

 

[SoCalKDG]

Companies like Timeshare Transfers will hold money in escrow for sales for a cost of $100. I bet they'd do the same in this situation. I wonder if a renter would be willing to pay an extra $100 for that service and protection. The only problem would be if TT were to have a problem like bankruptcy or go out of business in the interim.

Thats not a bad price as long as a person rented at least 75 points at once. The buyer and seller could split the costs and everyone makes out.

 

[chainkid]

Again, to answer Chipscinderelly, if you have the points and want Dec then you have to reserve Day to Day at the 11 month window. You will not have a problem if you do this. However if you wait then it is your fault that you can't get availability. I know as I rented several units for Dec with BWV points but had to wait til 7month to use Hilton Head points for BWV and nothing was available so I took OKW and got on the wait list. So far I haven't been successful and may cancel OKW before 60 days. The other folks will have to stay in the grand villa with us. This is my fault for not having enough points to book everyone at my home resorts. I don't blame someone else for using their points to book and hold rooms for what ever reason...they paid for the points and yearly maintenance so its really presumptuous of me to tell them what they can do morally with their point and how much they should charge not to be considered sleezy . Boy the arrogance of some people really makes me wonder if they step back and realize what they are saying. Its actually pretty scary to think that you pay for something and others want to dictate how you use it. I get steamed every time I see this thread which is brought up time and time again by the same people, well it doesn't fly.

 

[RuthnPaul]

Originally posted by SoCalKDG
If Disney really wanted to get rid of renting couldn't they charge $150-$250 for reservations that aren't in the owners name?

But if I were reserving for family, many of whom have a different last name than myself, or good friends, I wouldn't feel comfortable passing this reservation fee on to them. Does that mean I would need to raise the price I charge per point to cover this new fee??

 

[cruise-o-matic]

Yes, I guess legally, DVC is a timeshare but spiritually it is the magic of WDW that many are so passionate about. Of all the topics, renting, seems to cause the most heated discussions .... well maybe pool hopping too.

I'd say the overwhelming majority of the members bought into DVC for their enjoyment. Renting is a nice option, but it's probably a last resort before they lose their points. But still, they would rather enjoy (or let family or friends enjoyor help a fellow DVCer who is short on points) their points than to make $ off of them.

The philosophy is "Buy where you want to stay" not "Buy where you can make the most $ by renting your points." And sure, if you paid for the points, it's your perogative what you do with them. But I would say most DVCers take offense to someone "spec renting" by reserving hard to get rooms at 11 months out for the sole purpose of flipping them for profit.

Though not likely, it would be nice to see another tier come out for renting, like at 10 months for home resorts or 6 at others. To take advantage of the 11 or 7 month windows, the reservations have to be in the owner's name. And a substantial charge if any changes are made to the reservation name if the place was booked at the 11-10 or 7-6 month window.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by SoCalKDG
If Disney really wanted to get rid of renting couldn't they charge $150-$250 for reservations that aren't in the owners name?

It would not be within the rules as I read them. Of course there's no doubt DVC could throw their weight around and try to bully a member but that doesn't make them right or likely to win in court. As I've said before, courts have held that the rules must apply to all who rent equally including in FL. This is in regards to wholly owned condo's that I'm aware of but see no reason to expect it would be applied any differently to timeshares.

The only thing that bothers me about the rent board is the posts that are around high season for DVC - eg December. I know that any owner can do what they want but when they prevent me from getting a room I want (as an owner who stays on her own points not rents them out for profit) it really irks me!

I understand that bothers some people and I was simply baiting a couple of people to get them going. While I won't say I'd never do it, as long as I can confortably rent out the few extra points I have every year, it is not my intention. But if it came down to being the only way to rent out for a reasonable return, rest assured I would. But this is the function of the system DVC members bought into, like it or not. There is nothing wrong with it. I'm reminded of a recent discussion on TUG involving the Marriott Maui Ocean Club. Marriott sold all units as the same season. That means all owners are competing against each other for the top spots. Many were promised they could get what they wanted every year but now reality sets in and those that want certain times are never getting them. And since they give multiple week owners a 1 month priority, that means you should buy two weeks to get what you want if it's prime time.

Or Club Intrawest where they sell every single resort in their system telling people they can all reserve Xmas for skiing. They have no home resort priority and thus it's a free for all with little chance of success at the top times. I know people that own CI who are major execs at other timeshares and they can't even get a reservation for that tiem.

As I've said MANY times. This if for reservatiions open to everyone who owns at that resort. If you didn't guess, owners at other resorts should have no say. This would exclude special season preference lists and lottery choices as those reservatiosn would not have been open to all members at that resort. And while I understand that some people have situations in their personal life that affects their ability to plan, this is in now way DVC's or the other members fault or responsibility. Thus if you snooze, you lose.

And as I've also said before, actually none of this is really new on either side, LOL, DVC already has a limit on renting. It's 2000 points per person or 5000 points total.

Though not likely, it would be nice to see another tier come out for renting, like at 10 months for home resorts or 6 at others. To take advantage of the 11 or 7 month windows, the reservations have to be in the owner's name. And a substantial charge if any changes are made to the reservation name if the place was booked at the 11-10 or 7-6 month window.

And not within the rules.

 

[DrTomorrow]

Originally posted by cruise-o-matic
I'd say the overwhelming majority of the members bought into DVC for their enjoyment. [....] But I would say most DVCers take offense to someone "spec renting" [....]

Well, folks, it looks like we've found that spokesman we've been looking for - someone who knows what every DVC owner - or at least most of them - thinks and feels on key topics! [sarcasm]

Originally posted by cruise-o-matic
Though not likely, it would be nice to see another tier come out for renting, like at 10 months for home resorts or 6 at others. To take advantage of the 11 or 7 month windows, the reservations have to be in the owner's name. And a substantial charge if any changes are made to the reservation name if the place was booked at the 11-10 or 7-6 month window.

So if I book a 1 BR for my son (who doesn't have the same exact name as me) as a Honeymoon gift, then I can't use the 11 month window at my home resort? Hmmmm, needs work....

You know, to me, this smacks of those folks who say "Ooh, wouldn't it be great to live in the country, right next to a farm" and build a house next to a farm, then smell the smells that come with farms and try to have the farm closed down.

Folks, renting was in the documents we all reviewed and signed; we knew what was and wasn't allowed, yet still we bought. Should be no room for complaints about it.