Reneging Renters - How to deal with them?

[RobDoc]

...
If you bothered to look at your Disney DVC contract, you would know that the definition (for "financial gain") fits the actions of people buying and selling points.

To all would be lawyers,

Having now been chastised to be exact, I will do so.

The Disney documents do not have definitions for commercialism or financial gain. The only item that refers to this area is a series of different documents which say the following:
...

Which is it- either the definition for "financial gain" exists in the contract or it doesn't ? You can't have it both ways.

I rest my case.

Since you haven't seemed to be able to find mention in the contract about Renting/Leasing DVC accommodations , I'll be happy to quote from those sections once I get home this evening.

 

[gblast123]

Which is it- either the definition for "financial gain" exists in the contract or it doesn't ? You can't have it both ways.

I rest my case.

Since you haven't seemed to be able to find mention in the contract about Renting/Leasing DVC accommodations , I'll be happy to quote from those sections once I get home this evening.

It is amazing how frequently Doctor P's comments are immediately followed by WebmasterDoc. Just a coincidinky? In any case, this is turning in a far more technical discussion than anyone is really interested in. However, I am going to start a new thread after 10:00 am (gotta call MS on other issues) so that we can get other professionals involved in this dicussion.

But all this is distracting us from the real issue. What to do about reneging renters, which appears to be a very real and disturbing problem.

I define a reneging renter who has agreed to pay a certain price, has gotten a confirmed reservation in their name and then refuses to pay after the reservation is in their name.

I do not see renters getting hurt at any point in time. Which is the opposite of what one would expect. I see plenty of owner/renters getting shafted repeatedly.

Liferbabe does raise some interesting points.

I am going to stop replying a little as I want to see what that great pool of silent owners says. I suspect that most owners, esp. the newer ones, get shafted at least once but simply rent to someone else and then move on.

Webmaster, how would you treat an owner who rented points to a buyer but later cancelled that reservation to rent to someone else at a higher price? Is that something that the disboard would do anything about if it happened frequently?

 

[mikesmom]

Y'know one thing we could do, is stop sending folks over here from the Budget Board. Nothing against those good people, but the general tone over there is often "how can I squeeze the last nickel out of this situation?". I positively cringe when I read posts from people trying to figure out how to take 5 or 6 people to WDW and "we don't want to pay for 2 Value rooms", and somebody chimes in and says "go rent DVC on the R/T Board". Expectations are way out of whack when that happens.

 

[JimMIA]

Webmaster, how would you treat an owner who rented points to a buyer but later cancelled that reservation to rent to someone else at a higher price? Is that something that the disboard would do anything about if it happened frequently?

The DIS has historically strenuously avoided becoming a policeman for rentals. I'm not a Mod, but I'd bet they would do absolutely nothing in the situation you describe. They have repeatedly emphasized that all rental transactions are private matters between the owner and the renter.

I agree that DIS not getting mixed up in disputes between their members is the correct posture for them to take. It is also a policy that is not likely to change. The DIS Rent/Trade Board is a service to our members, NOT a commercial venture. DIS is a private website, and they have every right to set their own policies and guidelines about what is permissible and what is not.

As someone else has already pointed out, there are several other venues available -- eBay for one. In fact, many DVC owners use eBay rather than DIS because a) they get higher prices, and b) there is a built-in mechanism for feedback and dispute resolution.

 

[Disney Doll]

It is just for this reason, that I do not rent points.

I have no desire to get jerked around by unscrupulous people.

 

[mom2my3kids]

I think a feedback thread would be great. It would help renters and seller both. This is the first year I rented, I paid up front. The owner sent me my confirmation letter in the mail and I confirmed it with DVC.

 

[crisi]

A suggestion, but one that would need to catch on for the majority of owners, would be a paypal deposit of $25-50 when the first contact is made, to be applied to point rental and before the phone call is even made to check availablity. If the renter backs out after the work has started, the member keeps the fee. If the room is not available, the member keeps the fee. (This would also help renters educate themselves on reasonable requests - you don't get a BWV Standard View three months out for five weeknights - have a backup plan before the member starts calling)

 

[RobDoc]

....

Webmaster, how would you treat an owner who rented points to a buyer but later cancelled that reservation to rent to someone else at a higher price? Is that something that the disboard would do anything about if it happened frequently? ...

Since it's obvious you have not read the information about using our Rent/Trade Board, here is a link. http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1069406

Unlike e-Bay, the DIS gets no fee from any rentals on our site. As already noted by Jim, it is merely provided as a service. If anyone wants a free service that offers the ability to discuss potential renters and rentors, please feel free to use that or create one. We have always welcomed feedback from those who have used the Rent/Trade board to secure or rent a reservation. A few have even posted such comments.

IMO, there is no renter until payment has been received by the member. If a member wishes to make a reservation on trust, they are welcome to do so- but should also understand the risks involved. The same goes for renters - they should be aware of the risks involved before sending any money. All rental policies (again, IMO) should be based on your personal comfort level for this type of transaction.

To date, we have had minimal problems reported by those using our board - but a little caution would still be advised.

I'm sure there must a legal term that would better describe the attitude held by the DIS. Caveat Emptor.

 

[aloysius1992]

The situation OP described sounds to me like Real Estate "Lookie Lous". They are not renters untill owner has received payment. Usually half the total the same day as booking.

If I was the owner renting out and had to borrow points to make reservation then I would require payment first before making reservation.

Now if the renters did a $1000 credit card payment and then cancelled it, that would be a whole 'nother story.

 

[browniemtb]

I see the problem.....its written in lawyer.
I do agree though...Disney could pull the plug on rentals at any time. But then again think of how many of you owners bought because of renting. We are some of the best unpaid advertisers Disney has. I don't think Disney wants this to stop know matter how much we complain...they get sales from our rentals...plain and simple.
Brownie

 

[gblast123]

Actually, Webmaster, it is precisely because I read that thread that I posed my hypothetical.


It would seem that any owner can do what buyers are currently doing. Take a deposit, make a reservation than shop that reservation around to see if he could get a better price.

As long as the owner refunds the money, he wouldn't be doing anything that is against any published policy of disboard as far as that thread seems to state.

However, I just wanted you to confirm that !! It seems that you have, Thank You.

With regard to problems, don't you think that this unexpected response to this thread reveals a very real and disturbing problem?

One final question, is there anything in any published policy that prevents owners from circulating their own list of reneging renters to each other? I couldn't find such a prohibition so I wanted to confirm it.

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

As a renter , it saddens me to hear from all you owners who will not rent anymore because of deadbeat would be renters.

I would love to buy into DVC. DH is very reluctant. We rented enough points for 7 nights at the BWV and just rented enough points from another owner to add 3 more nights on at the BCV. Hopefully, this will convince DH to buy.

I find it terrible that so many of you owners get taken to the bank as to say. Truthfully, when I am searching for points on the rent/trade board and I see someone with alot of responses regarding their renting of points, I don't even bother to reply to those posts, thinking the points are all taken. Guess I should rethink that.

I rented out points for our BWV stay way before the free dining came out. Yes, if we stayed at the values or even moderates it would be cheaper. But look what we're getting: a guaranteed BW view within walking distance of 2 parks. I love that you guys rent these points out.

I was always reluctant to rent points. Afraid I would be taken advantage of. I never thought of the other way around. Just thinking if someone backed out, you could just rerent them again, never thinking it really is a big deal. Now I know.

 

[mom2my3kids]

How about a seperate board for a feedback board. Like maybe a msn groupfor feedback on buyers and sellers. Just have it in your signature line..I know when I came on here looking to rent, I was kinda scared because I didn't know who was good or who was trying to scam. Not saying anyone is scamming but you know what I mean. I happend upon two ladies who were very helpful ( u know who you are), and I rented from one the other did not have any points to sell but was very helpful. My seller, was excellent and I would hope in the future I can rent from her again. Just a idea on the feedback board.

 

[diznyfanatic]

I'm only stepping into the discussion here for three reasons because I know that I'm fairly new here and not very experienced with DVC:

- I've been a seller on eBay for 7 years (nothing having to do with rentals or anything else discussed here though, I'm a seller of collectibles and jewelry)

- I've been a renter here recently

- With some pixie dust, I hope to be a DVC owner soon

First and foremost, while I understand the need to attempt to address the problems owners are experiencing with potential renters, I would like to make it quite clear that using eBay's feedback system as an example, is not the route to go.

eBay's feedback system is extremely flawed, and has been a continual source of complaints and lawsuits for years. It started out to be used exactly for the reasons described here, but has been manipulated into an easy mechanism for revenge and extortion. Many sellers reputations have been ruined, and their accounts suspended, as the result of intentional feedback bombing.

After 10 years, eBay has yet to address or find a satisfactory resolution despite all the suggestions and assistance offered from their selling community. It is a very complicated issue so I can understand completely why the DIS owners and moderators would not want to be involved in anything like it here.

Since what you are suggesting puts DVC owners in the same vulnerable position as a seller on eBay, I'd tread very carefully regarding feedback suggestions. The old adage "Be careful what you wish for as you might get it" comes to mind. It also exposes renters, who may have legitimate reasons for not being able to complete a transaction, to an unreasonable owner.

I would also like to point out, that were it not for the opportunity to rent, I probably wouldn't have felt comfortable buying DVC. Experiencing it first hand for myself first, is what sealed the deal. I suspect that is precisely why DVC allows it.

We're starting off with a small contract of 100 points, so I don't think I'll even be in a position to rent for quite sometime. However, if I ever do, I would like to think there is a fair and respectful method of doing so that benefits both parties. I just don't think the eBay type feedback system is the answer.

 

[RobDoc]

I see the problem.....its written in lawyer.
I do agree though...Disney could pull the plug on rentals at any time. ...

The largest single owner that rents DVC reservations is Disney itself. While I disagree that they "could pull the plug on rentals at any time" (since it is specifically allowed by the contract), they are unlikely to stop allowing something that they do themselves. The documents even offer information suggesting that members who rent accommodations are "competing" with Disney and should be aware of that fact.

... My seller, was excellent and I would hope in the future I can rent from her again. Just a idea on the feedback board.

We already welcome such posts right here. Just post your comments on the DVC Mousecellaneous Board. Even a discussion of a negative event is acceptable, as long as no names are used. The event itself should be enough to serve as a caution to others.

 

[RobDoc]

...
With regard to problems, don't you think that this unexpected response to this thread reveals a very real and disturbing problem?

One final question, is there anything in any published policy that prevents owners from circulating their own list of reneging renters to each other? I couldn't find such a prohibition so I wanted to confirm it.

These same issues have been discussed for years on this site. Nothing new here. We've even had lawyers weigh in on both sides in the past- although most have taken the opposing view to your comments. Absolutely nothing new there either.

We don't care if an individual emails another individual. You certainly may not use the resources of this site to promote any such activity though. As CLEARLY stated in the thread I linked previously (which you claimed to have understood), any comments about specific renters or owners will be considered an attack and a violation of the site guidelines.

I'm still waiting for a response to the claims of "financial gain" being in the contracts and then not in the contracts - just in case that was missed earlier.

 

[gblast123]

These same issues have been discussed for years on this site. Nothing new here. We've even had lawyers weigh in on both sides in the past- although most have taken the opposing view to your comments. Absolutely nothing new there either.

We don't care if an individual emails another individual. You certainly may not use the resources of this site to promote any such activity though. As CLEARLY stated in the thread I linked previously (which you claimed to have understood), any comments about specific renters or owners will be considered an attack and a violation of the site guidelines.

I'm still waiting for a response to the claims of "financial gain" being in the contracts and then not in the contracts - just in case that was missed earlier.

Webmaster Doc,

You are the greatest, most intelligent, GOD of contract law. I give you the plaque of Honor for thinking that you caught me in a mistake!! Feel better now? Does that make your day? You in a happy mood? I happily admit that the words "financial gain" are not in my SSR contract.

However, you are misrepresenting one thing.

I never said that the exact words "financial gain" were in the contract.

Since you are acting like a dog with a bone on this issue, you should attempt to be exact instead of barking about a claimed fact that doesn't exist.

Try and re-read my phrase, think about it and I will happily accept your apology for your misquoting and misrepresenting my exact language. Better yet, save it for another day.

I know that you are honorable and would not try and deliberately sidetrack the main issue.

Reneging renters are a very real problem NOW!!

A simple post requesting help with what I thought was a small problem has mushroomed into one of the hottest threads you have.

A suggestion. What about a thread which simply says "this person cancelled their reservation with me".

There would not be any recriminations, accusations or anything else. There would be emails to back them up.

If something was unjustified or if either party could forward an email which indicated that it was incorrect, not only would the listing be removed but the person who was unjustifed would have his/her name posted as a unjustified accusor. It would be self policing

This could apply to owners and renters. Certainly, renters can and do cancel reservations many times. But if a repeated pattern occurs, it would give everyone something to think about when renting or selling points.

Caveat Emptor only works when there is enough information available. Suppressing that info only creates a veil of darkness. Evil cannot trive in the light of truth!!

 

[TCPluto]

Unless your knowledge of english is on the same level as dalt01, it is pretty clear to me that renting your points to stranger on the disboard falls squarely under the above definitions.

Who do I send the legal bill to?

Wow, are you that nasty generally, or is that the lawyer in you? Seems that it is you...

Send the legal bill? Hold on to it. I don't think anyone will be willing to pay for the incompetence you have shown as the halmark of your work product.

Do you actually get work??

 

[browniemtb]

I was always reluctant to rent points. Afraid I would be taken advantage of. I never thought of the other way around. Just thinking if someone backed out, you could just rerent them again, never thinking it really is a big deal. Now I know.

Rolie, it does go both ways. An example from my perspective.....say you rent from an onwer at BWV for $10 between the 7 and 11 month. Now the 7 month comes around and some one else has distressed points for $8. All of a sudden that original owners gets an email saying that we have car trouble we have to cancel, off they go to the $8 rental. The only saving grace is they may want certain room options that would have to be sacrificed. You had certain requests that more than likely would not have worked with a 7 month time frame....but others just want a room.Can we re-rent? Sure, but there may be banking issues that go along with this. So good points may have been used to make the ressie all of a sudden become partially non bankable distressed points. By the way have fun on your trip and let me know how the BCV is.......someday I'll get there.
Brownie

 

[Lewisc]

When I rented a few years ago $10 was the going price. I decided I wasn't going to waste my time trying "hondle" an owner that was trying to rent for more than $10 and I wasn't going to waste my time trying to find a desperate owner who was willing to rent at a discount. Everything worked out great.

I wonder if price negotiations by either owner or renter may lead one or both parties unsatisfied and cause them to continue to look for a "better deal"