Question about No Resuscitate Orders and Advanced Directives

[agnes!]

Given that the MIL had a DNR and that all there is left to do at this point is wait for her to pass, I don't think that it would be useful for the son to make such a petition.

Honestly, whether the husband presented the DNR or the medics brought it with them doesn't matter. The DNR existed because the wife wanted it to. Her requests were followed and it will soon lead to her death. It's sad, but it doesn't mean that the husband is the devil.

He might not be the devil but the FIL's 'story' just doesn't add up, he's not telling the truth. WHY? One has to carefully consider what he has to gain by lying about what happened. And how does the family even know that the supposed DNR was a valid instrument rendered by the patient? Is it in her handwriting? Does her signature look correct? Is it witnessed and/or notarized? The OP has some serious doubts about the situation as it was presented by the FIL, otherwise that first post would have been rendered very differently.

agnes!

 

[wdwfan16]

He might not be the devil but the FIL's 'story' just doesn't add up, he's not telling the truth. WHY? One has to carefully consider what he has to gain by lying about what happened. And how does the family even know that the supposed DNR was a valid instrument rendered by the patient? Is it in her handwriting? Does her signature look correct? Is it witnessed and/or notarized? The OP has some serious doubts about the situation as it was presented by the FIL, otherwise that first post would have been rendered very differently.

agnes!

ITA

This story does not add up. If the OP and her DH do not trust the FIL, then I would look into it further. Call the ambulance company and see if they did indeed have the DNR.

 

[robinb]

OP, I am sorry this is happening to your family {{hugs}}.

I wonder if the DNR was automatically faxed or otherwise transmitted to the ambulance when they were dispatched to the OP's MIL's house.

 

[bettymae1121]

I agree, something is strange about this story. I think if your husband has concerns about it, that he needs to follow up with adult protective services. They'll have the authority needed to get to the bottom of this.

 

[clutter]

I wonder if the DNR was automatically faxed or otherwise transmitted to the ambulance when they were dispatched to the OP's MIL's house.

Here's the thing about that. How would the dispatcher/ambulance know WHO the ambulance was called for? If I'm calling 911 in an emergency, I'm sure not taking the time to provide ID and SSN for the victim. And given the HIIPA rules, wouldn't it be a violation to provide a DNR for someone if you weren't absolutely sure who it was (which I would presume to be by ssn)?

I'm sorry, OP, but I agree that it doesn't pass the sniff test.

 

[scrapquitler]

That makes absolutely no sense to me. I don't understand how that paramedics would have known she had a DNR. And why would they refuse treatment if her heart was still beating?

My FIL had a DNR and signed it once he was diagnosed with terminal cancer and decided to discontinue palliative treatment. He received a bracelet to wear so that emergency responders would know he had a DNR, but the paramedics did not have a copy.

Sounds really fishy to me.

I am sorry for what your family is going through.

This is exactly what I was about to say. My Dad had a DNR before he died, and he had the bracelet.

A DNR order is not necessarily 'in place' until the patient is deemed near the end of life, and activated. Once the DNR is activated, the patient is given a bracelet to wear which shows EMTs and other medical personnel that the DNR is in effect.

What I would want to know in this situation, is HOW exactly did the EMTs have the DNR order? And who activated it? If the MIL was not wearing the bracelet, I think the EMTS are open to a wrongful death lawsuit, but hey, I'm not a lawyer.

 

[AnOtHeRdIsNeYfReAk]

I'm sorry to say but this doesn't make any sense from a number of points.

1) EMT's are generally dispatched from wherever they happen to be. They aren't sitting in an office like fire fighters, therefore the likelihood of them getting the call, going to the office to look for a possible DNR is nonexistent.

2) Keeping papers such as a DNR in the ambulance is a huge violation of HIPPA laws. The ambulance company could be fined a huge amount of money for this and I'm sure HIPPA laws are drilled into their heads just as much as they are into mine (nursing). Its not really something they'd risk.

3) Even if they did violate HIPPA laws and keep copies of DNR's in the ambulance, where in that few minute span would they have had the time to search for this woman's papers? In a large city they would have to go through thousands of not only DNR's but advanced directives, health care proxies, etc.. Also I assume they were called to an address, not by your MIL's name. How would they know what to look for?

4) They were responding to a choking call. Why would they bother with a DNR?

5) EMT's aren't paid much. Its not really a profitable career. Every EMT I know does it because they care. They would rather get there as fast as they can to try to help someone as opposed to delaying treatment and causing more harm.​

Your FIL is definitely NOT telling the truth. I'm pretty sure 911 calls are public domain. You can start by trying to get a hold of the transcript and going from there.

 

[bumbershoot]

I am having concerns.

That same scenario happened again when MIL was admitted to the hospital -- my husband told FIL that he wanted to speak with her doctors to get a more first-hand account of her medical issues. FIL blew up and got very agitated -- questioned why my husband wanted to do that. I just don't understand why that would be a problem if everything was above-board.

FIL has always treated MIL in a very infantile way. He's encouraged others to see her as silly. Rolls his eyes at everything she says. He really plays up his role as her "caretaker" - going out of his way to make sure everyone knows how much he's had to do for her.

After she got started on that oxycontin, (which was years ago), MIL would get up, take her oxycontin and go back to bed and that's it. She was always out of it, always sweating profusely, almost always in bed. FIL had a very flexible job -- he would come home, give her the pills and leave again. He was never home. He started taking solo trips to Las Vegas and one time MIL found pics of him with a female co-worker in Vegas. He claimed he'd just "coincidentally" run into her on the plane. He supposedly had no idea she was going to Vegas, as well -- and they'd hung out together. The family found nothing odd about this, but I was flabbergasted. So I would say that, yes, he has a history of being untruthful.

I guess I'm concerned that he's moved on and doesn't have MIL's best interest at heart.

That was Monday. It's Wednesday night now and her heart is beating very well, she's lying there breathing on her own -- it's just a matter of when the dehydration and lack of nutrition will shut her body down.

Just reading that makes me have more concerns. That's just awful.

But weird things do happen. I have an ex whose dad had a stroke. Dad had a wife who seemed the perfect wife. The dad wasn't supposed to make it, and she contacted his pension company to get some sort of emergency funds that were allowed in those situations...well dad pulled through, and wife never stopped pulling those funds. Started controlling his life. He wasn't allowed to go to any of his old stomping grounds at all...she scheduled him, kept him at the home. A couple years later, she suddenly died, and that's when the family found out about her OTHER life. Another marriage. Gambling. Drained his pension. She was going to the casinos (his old stomping grounds) and meeting new people and spending his money. It went on and on.

So it does happen. But that doesn't make it any better for you guys...I'm so sorry if this turns out to be as scary as it it sounding.

That's a good idea. MIL and FIL live in a large metropolitan area and it appears there are many different ambulance services. Perhaps the hospital would know which brought her in and we can contact them to get an idea of what exactly happened that night.

I was thinking "if they live in a tiny town maybe it makes sense", but not in a large area.

 

[sbell111]

He might not be the devil but the FIL's 'story' just doesn't add up, he's not telling the truth. WHY?

Perhaps he was embarrassed that he had to be the 'heavy' and provide them with the DNR. Perhaps, he thought his children would hate him for doing nothing more than following the wishes of his wife.

One has to carefully consider what he has to gain by lying about what happened.

Isn't that just the thing? He has nothing to gain and the love of his children to lose.

And how does the family even know that the supposed DNR was a valid instrument rendered by the patient? Is it in her handwriting? Does her signature look correct? Is it witnessed and/or notarized? The OP has some serious doubts about the situation as it was presented by the FIL, otherwise that first post would have been rendered very differently.

The husband knew that it was what his wife wanted, that's enough.

I expect my wife to fight tooth and nail to uphold my wishes regardless of what enyone else thinks. She will have the authority to approve/disapprove any treatment. Other family members have no say in the matter whatsoever.

 

[agnes!]

Perhaps he was embarrassed that he had to be the 'heavy' and provide them with the DNR. Perhaps, he thought his children would hate him for doing nothing more than following the wishes of his wife.Isn't that just the thing? He has nothing to gain and the love of his children to lose.The husband knew that it was what his wife wanted, that's enough.

Perhaps.

I expect my wife to fight tooth and nail to uphold my wishes regardless of what enyone else thinks. She will have the authority to approve/disapprove any treatment. Other family members have no say in the matter whatsoever.

Of COURSE, legally, the decision-making/expected-to-survive spouse has (not-unlimited) authority over the medical treatment of an incapacitated/brain-dead spouse. I'm assuming that in your marriage that at least the decision-making spouse will inform other family-members of any actions that are going to take place?... Perhaps, not.

The offspring discussed in the OP have issues with how the one spouse has behaved, they have doubts about many things, the story among them but also the possible over-medication of the now-incapacitated spouse. The FIL does not seem to be fighting tooth-&-nail, his 'stories' just do not match up, you are taking at face value the FIL's statements. The posters with EMT/paramedic/ambulance experience have stated that they highly doubt the DNR story that he is telling the other family-members.

We don't know any of these people, you don't and I don't. The FIL might be telling the gospel-truth and for whatever reason he might not. That is all.

agnes!