Possible major air travel disruption starting Wednesday due to 5G

[JimMIA]

There is a major potential problem brewing in US air travel on Wednesday due to the implementation of 5G cell service. The FAA says about 45% of US airports are deemed safe, but the airlines say that list does not include many large cities or major hubs.

I'm no techie, but the airlines say that 5G will render important safety systems on many aircraft inoperable.

Here's a link to some detail: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/17/maj...5g-could-ground-some-planes-wreak-havoc-.html

 

[SteveH]

Sure seems like the FCC & the FAA should have been doing some work way before this was being implemented let alone about to roll out.

 

[mom2rtk]

Shades of Y2K?

 

[stinkpickle]

Well, our flight in on Thursday, so that will give them less than a day to iron this out.

 

[JimMIA]

Sure seems like the FCC & the FAA should have been doing some work way before this was being implemented let alone about to roll out.

I agree. It's been widely discussed since the 5G rollout date was disclosed, but it seems like they're not even halfway there in their preparation and adjustments.

My understanding is that the airlines are asking that cell towers be turned off if they are within 2 miles of a runway. It doesn't seem like that would trash coverage, but for some reason it's not happening.

Government can move incredibly slowly sometimes.

 

[JimMIA]

Shades of Y2K?

I don't think so. It seems that all parties concerned know that 5G will interfere with some of the low altitude safety systems. I haven't heard anyone say it wasn't a problem.

Y2K was always more of a conspiracy theory than a real thing, although companies spent millions protecting themselves.

 

[EACarlson]

http://www.alpa.org/resources/aircraft-operations-radar-altimeter-interference-5GThis is the statement from the Pilots' Union. There is a list of 50 airports that will have reduced power to the cell towers in the area, MCO is included, most major airports are included. My understanding from following this is that it really only affects marginal landings. If the weather is good it shouldn't be a problem at all.

 

[JimMIA]

http://www.alpa.org/resources/aircraft-operations-radar-altimeter-interference-5GThis is the statement from the Pilots' Union. There is a list of 50 airports that will have reduced power to the cell towers in the area, MCO is included, most major airports are included. My understanding from following this is that it really only affects marginal landings. If the weather is good it shouldn't be a problem at all.

I think you're right. Sounds like it would only affect instrument landings in poor visibility conditions. Problem is, they never know when those are going to occur.

Also when you click through and find the actual list, there are a lot of big names there including MCO, FLL, PBI and MIA in Florida, Laguardia, JFK, and Newark, Dallas/Ft Worth, Vegas, LAX, San Francisco, Houston, Chicago O'Hare, Philly, Phoenix, St Louis, Minneapolis, etc, etc, etc.

 

[MrKnight]

Also when you click through and find the actual list, there are a lot of big names there including MCO, FLL, PBI and MIA in Florida, Laguardia, JFK, and Newark, Dallas/Ft Worth, Vegas, LAX, San Francisco, Houston, Chicago O'Hare, Philly, Phoenix, St Louis, Minneapolis, etc, etc, etc.

This is not good, more than three quarters of those airports are major hubs that many people rely on for connections/layovers.. Sending good vibes and thoughts to anyone traveling this Wednesday..

 

[Klismania]

According to the FAA website: "During the two-week delay in deploying new 5G service, safety experts determined that 5G interference with the aircraft’s radio altimeter could prevent engine and braking systems from transitioning to landing mode, which could prevent an aircraft from stopping on the runway. "

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-statements-5g
I'm glad I'm not traveling in the next few weeks.

 

[sam_gordon]

Sounds like it would only affect instrument landings in poor visibility conditions. Problem is, they never know when those are going to occur.

All airline flights are done under instrument conditions.

 

[EACarlson]

This is not good, more than three quarters of those airports are major hubs that many people rely on for connections/layovers.. Sending good vibes and thoughts to anyone traveling this Wednesday..

You've got it backwards, that is the list where 5G midband will be dialed back in power for the next six months according to the agreement between the FAA and FCC.

All airline flights are done under instrument conditions.

No they're not. Radar or radio altimeters are only utilized when the pilots can't get a good ground fix visually below 5 thousand feet.

 

[LadyBeBop]

I think you're right. Sounds like it would only affect instrument landings in poor visibility conditions. Problem is, they never know when those are going to occur.

Also when you click through and find the actual list, there are a lot of big names there including MCO, FLL, PBI and MIA in Florida, Laguardia, JFK, and Newark, Dallas/Ft Worth, Vegas, LAX, San Francisco, Houston, Chicago O'Hare, Philly, Phoenix, St Louis, Minneapolis, etc, etc, etc.

However, some of the big air-freight hubs aren't on the list. Most notably are Memphis (main American air hub for Fed-Ex and Cincinnati (main American air hub for DHL).

 

[sam_gordon]

No they're not. Radar or radio altimeters are only utilized when the pilots can't get a good ground fix visually below 5 thousand feet.

I misspoke. They are completed under instrument flight rules with an instrument flight plan.

 

[_19disnA]

This seems to happen a lot when competing entities can't agree to resolve an issue. There is usually a lot of 'brinksmanship' on both sides with one denying any problem exists and the other side saying the world will end......right up to the time the deadline approaches. I don't know which is correct, but I suspect they are each trying to prod the other side into reaching some sort of compromise.

 

[EACarlson]

I misspoke. They are completed under instrument flight rules with an instrument flight plan.

Correct but that has nothing to do with what is being discussed. RAs only operate below 5,000 feet, as of right now the 1,400 NOTAMs issued by the FAA limit aircraft to Cat I ILS landings only. The vast majority of commercial flights land visually anyway. 46% of current commercial airplanes have already been certified to operate just fine in concert with C band transmissions. Personally I believe it shouldn't matter, you should know the elevation of the field and your barometric altimeter is giving you your elevation above sea level, math shouldn't be too difficult to figure out your elevation AGL.

 

[JimMIA]

Update:

https://thehill.com/policy/technolo...er-turning-on-certain-5g-towers-near-airports

 

[_19disnA]

^^ Not surprised there is an agreement to delay at certain locations.

 

[EACarlson]

This same band with even less of a buffer zone is currently in use in over 40 countries, including Denmark, Finland, Ireland, France, New Zealand, Romania and Spain. While radiating more power than is permissible by the FCC. Data from the study being cited by the FAA hasn't been made available to anyone on the telecom side to review.

 

[a1tinkfans]

Somehow, this just does not surprise me. Sad