please ignore

[undertheradar]

While I can understand the OP's hesitation to accept change, it stands to reason that cuts must be made if there isn't enough money to cover the monthly budget. Suggestions of placing your child in public school and someone working a second job are very sound. While we all want instant gratification, there has to be money to pay for these things. If you cannot afford groceries and fuel for your vehicles, how can you afford vacations?

More information could assist DISers to better guide you towards liquidity. Unfortunately, there will be tough times to get there. If working opposite shifts is not helping your cash flow, the need to get on the same shift is in order(carpooling then possible). Instead of criticizing anyone who offers input, learn from other's advice!

The bottom line for you is that YOU must stop spending! YOU must start retiring debt immediately! YOU must live within your means!

1) Change to public school
2) Dispose of cell phones
3) Buy Groceries 1X month(Use cash in envelope. Any extra cash stays in envelope to create emergency cash fund).
4) Only drive vehicles for needed trips(no joyrides).
5) ALL purchases(clothing,school supplies, etc.) must be budgeted the month before.
6) Proceeds from any items sold MUST be used to retire debt.

Good Luck! It won't be fun or easy, but it can be done!

 

[dvcgirl]

I have to be honest.... I think we are ALL wasting our time.

Peaceful Girl wants to be told that a miracle will occur and she will be debt free and be able to go to Disney etc...

I don't get it and to be honest it's hard to feel sorry for her. If she had TRULY done everything she said she was doing last time, do we really think she would be in this position now? I have read lots of you on the Dave Ramsey and other programs post in the past. In every case except this one there is forward progress and some folks have even posted that they are now debt free. Here we seem to be going from bad to worse.

A few things are going to happen and none of them are good.

If you can't put food on the table someone will probably find out and could potentially call the local DHS. Feeding the child is considered vital in thier world.

If you can't pay the bills, one of your creditors will eventually fall through the shell game you have going on. They will start the house of cards crumbling....


I wish we could help, but helpful advice is rebutted. None of us are in a posi;tion to send her money to pay off the debt so I am out of options!

Why I think that we may be wasting our time with the OP, perhaps there are others reading who are jotting down some ideas and listening to some of the advice given here.

What we have here is a perfect example of living above one's means. It's very, very common these days and so I think that the thread is important on some level. Many, many people out there are doing the very same thing as the OP. You have a healthy double income by most people's standards and living in a nice house I'm sure. And then spending gets out of control. Income can't keep up with spending, and so they start to leverage against the house and borrow from 401K (taking the penalty hit) to continue spending. Instead of getting a grip on the problem, it only escalates because income levels are still close to the same as before, but now the loan payments are part of the monthly expenses. Before you know it, you're in over your head and there's no way out.

I worry that we're going to see so much more of this when the real estate market cools off.

 

[MrsPete]

What you are missing is that you lived beyond your means for a long time. Paying it off is going to involve living below your means for even longer.

Sadly, this is the truth. You didn't get into this situation overnight, and you won't get out of it overnight.

It's kind of like being overweight. You can start eating right and exercising TODAY, but that doesn't automatically remove the unwanted pounds. Only time, effort, and sacrafice will get rid of yesterday's mistakes.

Since this particular problem is financial, the truth is that you have to pay for last year's new outfit, last year's Christmas presents, etc. Once you get to a clean slate, life will be better, but getting there is not going to be easy. The only way to get out of this rut and really be PEACEFUL is to dig in right now and start saving.

Basically, you have two choices:
1. Increase your income. An extra job, ebay sales, overtime . . .
2. Decrease expenses. Cut out cable, meals out, new clothes . . .
Which is more realistic for you? Or, what combination of the two is more realistic for you?

And that again, has NO PRICE! Life is about living for me... and yes I TRUST myself enough to know my choices are what works for ME.

But you're asking for advice? You don't sound happy with your financial situation, and I think you're not being honest with yourself.

All right, here's an idea. Private school. Drop it. It is a luxury that you cannot afford right now.

My kids were in Christian school for years, and it was a good choice; however, we switched over to public school -- that, too, was a good choice. I miss some things about our old school: it was smaller, I knew all the parents, the uniforms were a money-saver, and I loved that they memorized Bible verses and went to Chapel. But, honestly, the public school far exceeds our old school academically. My children are in the gifted program, which has provided challenges they just weren't getting in Christian school.

My school advice: Give public school a 2-month try. If it's a mistake, you can always go back.

Other ways to save:
Don't look for ways to spend less for what you have now -- that only puts a band-aid on the problem. Instead, look for ways to avoid spending altogether. Here's are some examples that may or may not fit your life: Instead of looking for soda on sale, drink water. Instead of going to the dollar movies, check out a book from the library. Instead of buying a new outsit for a party, wear something you alreadyhave-- few people will notice.

Sell a car; don't say you can't do it -- figure out how to make it work. We made do with one car for years and years (despite the fact that we lived waaay out in the country with no public transportation). This one thing will make a huge difference in your budget. Would a different job make this possible? What about a car pool with a co-worker? There is no other single thing you can do to save as much money as getting rid of one of your cars.

Read The Complete Tightwad Gazette. It's the best financial book for people who are in serious trouble. Most of the other financial books tell you how to cut back, or how to live a middle class life for less. This book tells you how to cut to the bone, which is what you must do -- temporarily -- to get back on your feet. It emphasizes analyzing purchases in interesting terms. For example, suppose you are thinking about ordering a pizza for dinner; how many hours must you work to pay for that $15 pizza? On the other hand, how much time would it take to make a pizza at home? I can whip up a pizza in 30 minutes; that's like making $30/hour to cooke the pizza. Think that makes a difference in my attitude when I'm cooking it? Yep. Here's another example: You're sick and tired of toting a bag lunch (cost: $1.00) to work everyday; you decide you're tempted to splurge and go out with friends, which runs $10.00. Lunch is nice, but is it really TEN TIMES as nice as your sandwich lunch? Seriously, the book will give you some new insights on spending.

I suggest that you do not cancel your 401 K contributions -- cut them in half, if you must, but don't stop them. You're not a disciplined saver (like most people -- don't take it as an insult), and you need the advantage of time to build your retirement savings. Time will pass quickly, and you will need this money before you know it.

Finally, I think most people get into financial trouble because they don't plan. The first step in planning is having goals. What are your goals for your life? Not financial things -- general goals. Here are some of mine: Serve the Lord. Raise my children well, provide them with educational experiences, family memories, and support them financially through college. Do my job well. Fund a comfortable retirement. Write down your goals; every time you start to spend, ask yourself whether this particular purchase is in line with your overall goals.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

If you can't pay the bills, one of your creditors will eventually fall through the shell game you have going on. They will start the house of cards crumbling....

Amen. What the OP essentially has going with her bills is an "internal" Ponzi scheme -- thankfully it's only her own finances she's playing with. She racks up the debt in one place; takes the money from another place to pay that debt but hasn't eliminated the debt. She has simply moved it from one place to another.

Reading the OP's responses is like watching a train wreck occur in very slow motion. I will concur that she has never once responded to suggestions that she cut out the things she feels she, her DH or her DD "deserve".

Let's see if another shot across the bow will elicit a response:

Send DD to a public elementary school - nobody "deserves" a private school education when there isn't enough money to put food on the table or pay the bills.

Cut out the cable completely. Enjoy TV the way your ancestors did - an antenna.

Sell the house and downsize.

Take public transportation to work, to activities, to shop.

However, offering such advice to someone who doesn't really want that advice is akin to banging my head against a tree. I've suggested it before, and I'll suggest it again -- could posters seeking advice on these boards please let us know the exact tenor of advice you wish? It will make our lives much easier and ensures that those with sound financial advice (i.e. everyone who has responded to this OP) won't have to waste their time.

Please let us know when the power-of-sale order comes through on the house. At least we'll know the train wreck is nearly over.

Yes -- I'm being judgemental. It's my job.

 

[crisi]

I suggest that you do not cancel your 401 K contributions -- cut them in half, if you must, but don't stop them.

Particularly now that I've added eight years on to my mental age of you.....you don't have a lot of time for catch up on retirement accounts. You are close to my age - and I personally don't believe Social Security will be there for people our age - at least not like it is now. You've borrowed quite a bit from your 401ks already.

I am not a lawyer, but it may also be worthwhile to - at this point - know what assets are protected if you go into bankruptcy. In your previous thread I posted about my friend. He did declare bankruptcy, but his house was protected in the state he was in. A family loan kept the bank from foreclosing on the house and he was able to net a small profit when he sold it. It wasn't much, but it was something. For instance, if your 401ks are protected, it makes sense to continue to put money there and not borrow against it to pay bills.

I am not saying you will or should declare bankruptcy. I'm saying it would be wise to recognize that may be a future step (if you or your husband gets injured tomorrow and spends six months on partial pay disability leave, you are sunk) and to find out what can be done now to keep that a painless as possible.

 

[wscato]

I agree 100% with CarolA and Royal Canandian. When she does hit absolute rock bottom she will have wished she had taken everyones advice from September last year and now. But, you can't help or suggest to those who really don't want help. Hopefully she will come to her senses before it is too late.

 

[mrsbornkuntry]

However, offering such advice to someone who doesn't really want that advice is akin to banging my head against a tree. I've suggested it before, and I'll suggest it again -- could posters seeking advice on these boards please let us know the exact tenor of advice you wish? It will make our lives much easier and ensures that those with sound financial advice (i.e. everyone who has responded to this OP) won't have to waste their time.

Well, the time wasn't completely wasted, I have been following this thread and while I don't have anything to offer that hasn't already been said, I have gotten so much advice that I went to the library last night and got Total Money Makeover and have read halfway through it already, and I'm not that far in debt, it's just been an inspiration to get completely out of debt.

IMO, it is irritating to the previous posters to reply with sound advice only for the OP to shoot down every idea as not being plausible. The only responses that seem to be helpful to her are the ones that refer her to another financial book or forum, however they're going to say the same things that everyone is saying here. I can't even keep count of the number of Dave Ramsey quotes I've read here! This is sound financial advice. To get out of debt, or at least to the point of paying for food and gas you're going to have to prioritize. It doesn't do any good to have extra vehicles if you can't pay to put gas in them.

I also have to agree with the previous poster who offered no sympathy because the OP and her DH obviously make a six figure income. My family also makes much less than that and we have 5 children, but we live within our means. If we continued to live this way which is comfortable most of the time, a six figure income would add up to a nice savings. My point is that the OP is not living within her means and isn't willing to downgrade (I'm not sure that's the right word?).

 

[madge]

Well, the time wasn't completely wasted, I have been following this thread and while I don't have anything to offer that hasn't already been said, I have gotten so much advice that I went to the library last night and got Total Money Makeover and have read halfway through it already, and I'm not that far in debt, it's just been an inspiration to get completely out of debt.

IMO, it is irritating to the previous posters to reply with sound advice only for the OP to shoot down every idea as not being plausible. The only responses that seem to be helpful to her are the ones that refer her to another financial book or forum, however they're going to say the same things that everyone is saying here. I can't even keep count of the number of Dave Ramsey quotes I've read here! This is sound financial advice. To get out of debt, or at least to the point of paying for food and gas you're going to have to prioritize. It doesn't do any good to have extra vehicles if you can't pay to put gas in them.

I also have to agree with the previous poster who offered no sympathy because the OP and her DH obviously make a six figure income. My family also makes much less than that and we have 5 children, but we live within our means. If we continued to live this way which is comfortable most of the time, a six figure income would add up to a nice savings. My point is that the OP is not living within her means and isn't willing to downgrade (I'm not sure that's the right word?).

add me to the "time not wasted list" I like keeping up with the financial threads, I learn something new almost every day. These threads help keep my eye on the ball, so to speak. so to those who share the good advice, I appreciate it!

 

[dvcgirl]

mrsbornkuntry,

Good for you! I'm glad that you found the thread inspiring. It's gotten a lot of hits and so we all know people are reading. Mrs Pete's recent comments are estate planning are particularly wise. You absolutely must have a plan. And you must look at every single thing that you're spending money on and ask yourself which of your life's goals it is meeting.

Living below your means is the key to success! Does this mean that those of who do this can never have any fun? Of course not. And if you are only in a small amount of debt there are wonderful ideas in this thread to cut back on some little things or bring in a little additional income! Good luck to you...

 

[Nik's Mom]

I can definately help with this one.
This is what worked for us.

DH and I were in serious debt for our income. We were feeling really bogged down with the burden of the debt we carried but we didn't know of any way out. We had never been taught or given sound financial advice growing up and we started believing that debt was a "normal" way of life. After all, that's how our parents lived and friends of ours live heck, half of America lives. I hated living that way even if I was taught it was the "normal" way to live and that we'd always have a car payment and mortgage payment. . . Then I stumbled across Dave Ramsey, which you too said you've heard of. By following his advice we have managed to pay off about $13,000 to $14,000 in debt and most of that was credit card payments! Some of it was a car payment which is now paid for YAA! (that's a great feeling) and some were stray doctor bills.

I work best when I am held accountable for my progress so I belong to two message board groups like the dis which are strictly focused on getting out of debt and sound financial management.
One forum is found at Dave Ramsey's own website My Total Money Makeover where you can sign up with a free tour of the site. Don't pay for the membership if you are just wanting to use the forums as they are free. I had a membership there but I never used the other tools on the site so I let the membership go (it was just an added expense that we didn't need) and just use the free forums which are set up like the Disboards.
The second group I belong to is on Yahoo groups. It is called FinancialBootCamp .
Here is a description of this group:


Both groups are very focused and are not for the "faint of heart". If you post something on these boards about the problems you are having they will do all they can to point you in the right direction. They will give you good advice because most, I'd say 99% of the people, have been in debt or are climbing their way out of debt. They know what works because they've done it! They've been in the trenches. They will support you and encourage you as you work your way out of debt and out of financial woes but they won't tolerate excuses! I'm not saying that you are making excuses or will make excuses I'm just forwarding on a friendly word of advice should you decide to join their boards.

DH and I have been there. They say that personal finance is 80 percent behavior and 20 percent head knowledge. Our biggest problem was our behavior. Once we were given the knowledge of how money works it took a colosal effort to change our ways and habits. I, personally, had to get rid of my entitlement attitude. DH never had an entitlement attitude but I sure did. I still fight it almost daily even with things that may not even be money related. "I deserve to sit here on this couch and watch my show, I've worked hard all day. . . I deserve for you (DH) to make the bed for me today because I do it all week along with everything else around here. . . I deserve to go to Lancaster for the weekend (and spend money we don't have on gas, hotels and food) to get away because my grandfather just died and I've got to just get away from here and get away from the pain of the reminders. . ."
Sometimes getting out of debt requires sacrifice and that doesn't always mean specifically the money but sacrifice of our desires and what we may think we deserve ~but only for a short time, I promise~. This hasn't been easy for DH and I because there definately was no quick fix solution just hard determination that we were going to change our financial solution. I'm on here all the time getting Disney fixes because DH and I made up our mind that we were stopping all vacations until the debt was gone but the end is almost in sight. It hasn't been easy. There have been times when I would have loved to just escape to Disney as it is mine and DH "happy place". I know that sounds so cliche' but really it is. DH is self-employed and I can attest to how much harder you work when you work for yourself (becuase if you're not working no money is coming in). At Disney we can unwind there and reconnect there but oooohhh how terrific it will feel when we go in November for 10 glorious days (the longest we've ever gone for) not to owe anybody any money when we come home. We won't owe Chase, we won't owe Disney for our DVC purchase, we don't owe the bank for our car. . .

Sorry to have rambled on there at the end I guess I got caught up in my own daydreaming. Mainly, I just wanted you to know about the other message boards.

HTH

Great advise!

 

[LuluLovesDisney]

What worked for me was:
1. Adding up how much money I was spending on "finance charges". When I saw visually how much I was *giving* to cc companies, I decided NO MORE.
2. I took coffee and lunch from home every day.
3. I made the hugest payments to my cc's every month, starting w the highest interest rate one. I have *one* more payment to make and I am *completely* debt free.
4. I stopped buying stuff. Clothes, renting dvd's, manicures,everything. I just stopped until I was under control.
5. I started writing down every single thing I bought and really analyzing it. Bottled water, gum, magazines, etc. really add up. I bought a case of water and kept it in my car. I actually cut down on gum. Because I was watching my weight, I was chewing a pack or two a day of sugar free gum!
6. I had to overcome personal addictive behavior patterns and start planning ahead. I only bought/did things when I knew I was ready.

A lot of people do things before they are ready financially, emotionally whatever. It causes more pain and stress than you can imagine. I've noticed this a lot as a teacher. 15 year old's having sex, getting pregnant, getting diseases. Preschoolers going on thrill rides. Six year olds with cell phones. Adults can do this stuff, too. they get married, eat a fattening meal, buy things, etc. without planning ahead for what's best. One close friend of mine is living credit card to credit card, is 28, twice divorced, and has a child from a person her son has never met (neither of the 2 husbands) I love her very much, but she is a financial and emotional wreck. She didn't plan ahead at all- not in relationships, not in finances, not in life.

My last piece of advice, is- plan ahead. You cannot go back and change the mistakes you've made. You can "make a better yesterday" only by learning from them and planning for a great future. Yes, only you can decide how to budget your money.

My one question- have you thought of declaring bankruptcy? You might want to research it and see if it would help you consolidate your loans or something like that.

If you can't get another job, and you can't make ends meet at a barebones budget, nothing we can say will really help you. You can't live without bare essentials. No one should live like that. I will not tell you to cut out more if you are already stretched to your limits. That is why bankruptcy is available. It really can help some people still live comfortably (but stringently) after they have found themselves in a bad situation. Everyone does deserve a second chance. I guess what I'm saying is, "take your own coffee to work" is not enough to help a $400 deficit. There are lots of great money saving tidbits here, but to truly solve the problem, you need more than those little tidbits. Do your research. Plan ahead. Good luck!

And one more thing- if you can't afford a Disney vacation, do what I did last year w my bf. We made a meal from Disney recipes, wore our ears and Disney sweatshirts, went through Disney pictures and guidebooks together, played Disney trivial pursuit and watched Fantasia! Sometimes we have to make our own magic in this world.

We all want to see you succeed, not fail. This I promise you. It's like school. Some teachers are harsher, some are softer. All want you to learn the material and pass the test. Please do not be upset with the harsher teachers.
Make a plan that will work for you. Let us know how you do.

 

[Debbie]

Basically, you have two choices:
1. Increase your income. An extra job, ebay sales, overtime . . .
2. Decrease expenses. Cut out cable, meals out, new clothes . . .
Which is more realistic for you? Or, what combination of the two is more realistic for you?

That's it in a nutshell. There is no "secret weapon" that doesn't require work or concessions. *sigh* I wish there was.

 

[therriau4]

First of all, like another poster said, know that you are not alone. It can be tough to make it financially in today's world. One suggestion I didn't see (and sorry if its a repeat, I didn't read all the replies) is to raise the deductible on your auto and other insurances. This saved us a little money on a monthly when things got tight. We also sold our very large, high maintenance home and bought a smaller one, but that also meant less time cleaning, doing home repairs and maintaining the grounds...so there's often more than just a financial benefit there.
I know you have a DD, so maybe work outside of the home isn't too attractive an option for you, so do you have skills that you can utilize at home to earn $? Can you do word processing, write freelance, or take in babysitting for 2nd or 3rd shift working parents? I earn some extra $ through ebay and also dog sitting for people when they go on vacations (meaning I go to their homes and play with the pets, feed & water them, bring in the mail, etc.).
I also cut my food budget (no kidding) by between 25.00 and $45.00 per week just by switching grocery stores, and buying store brand products where reasonable. And before that I thought I was cutting waay back. Now I buy more, and eat just as well.
Gas is a bear, so eliminate any and all unnecessary long distance trips. Consolidate all your driving.
Good luck and best wishes,

 

[ForTheLoveofDisney]

3. I made the hugest payments to my cc's every month, starting w the highest interest rate one. I have *one* more payment to make and I am *completely* debt free.

Way to Go LuluLovesDisney!!

My last piece of advice, is- plan ahead. You cannot go back and change the mistakes you've made. You can "make a better yesterday" only by learning from them and planning for a great future. Yes, only you can decide how to budget your money.

Very good advice! Truer words couldn't be spoken than the quote:

"People don't plan to fail ~They just fail to plan"

You need a plan a guide map. How can you know where you need to go if you don't know how to get there? The sites I posted about earlier can help you create plan and more importantly they can help you stick to the plan. They can't make you but they can certainly help you hold your feet to the fire.

And one more thing- if you can't afford a Disney vacation, do what I did last year w my bf. We made a meal from Disney recipes, wore our ears and Disney sweatshirts, went through Disney pictures and guidebooks together, played Disney trivial pursuit and watched Fantasia! Sometimes we have to make our own magic in this world.

This is a great idea! I'm going to have to try this myself for me and DH ! I've been thinking about doing something like this for quite awhile in anticipation of our upcoming trip. I was going to call it something goofy like "Disney Saturday Nights" or something like that where we could watch Disney videos and talk all things Disney. Thanks for sharing this idea!

 

[Nik's Mom]

O.k, I admit I am bad at math. That is why my hubby did an excel spreadsheet to balance our check book. So, the family makes 6 figures?! That is a different story. I am a stay at home Mom, so 4 of us live off hubby's income. Now, granted we knew I was going to stay home for at least a year, so we had time to save up. But we definitely know what is coming in and what is going out in terms of income. And every time I transfer money from our savings account due to an unexpected expense (my Dad's funeral , DH's dental bill because he never listened to me when I said "get your teeth looked at", etc), it makes me worry. Even though we still have money in savings and aren't on the verge of financial ruin, an unexpected expense sets off my internal financia alarml because we are on a tight buget. I have decided to return to work because it will make life easier financially. It was a hard choice, but I have to listen to that internal financial alarm. I think a lot of people don't have that internal alarm. They don't realize they are in trouble until it's too late.
I feel very sorry for a lot of people in debt. My own mother is facing huge debt from caring for my father while he battled cancer. Medical insurance didn't pay for a lot of his treatment. Now I feel very bad for that debt. I have friends who were on the verge of bankruptcy because a spouse became very ill and was out of work for a long time. I could go on and on.
I don't know where I'm going with this, really.
One point that I am positive about, this thread was not a waste of time. I have learned a lot here (Quicken is on my list of things to buy), and have been referred to some good websites. I'm sure there are people reading this thread and are learning a great deal here. As long as one person wakes up because of this thread, I consider all of your advise a huge success!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

My husband always tells me--"but, honey--we only make so much!". While a large salary sounds large---it really isn't. You sound like you've been living as if you are rich, when indeed you aren't.

It took a long time for me to not be envious of those in the million dollar homes driving the lexus. They probably have both spouses working to keep up with all that--sometimes, just barely.

Another book suggestion which will get you away from keeping up the Joneses (Which by the way--lusting after trips to Disney while cruising the DIS is in essence your version of keeping up with the DISers)....

The Millionaire Next Door
Wealth on Minimal Wage

While my family is still in debt---b/c we like to travel and do things which make paying it off more slowly....these books have slowly help me to metamorphisize my view of the Jones'.

We just finally bought brand spanking new couches after 7 years of searching. Now if only all my purchases would go that way---we'd be much happier. It took us that long because we waited for the right couch at the right price that we both agreed on and both loved and were both comfy when sitting on.

If we spend that much effort in other financial areas of our lives---we'd be so well off--but not in the "rich" sense of the phrase.

I will be inclined to begin doing this b/c I do not wish to end up like PG.

I don't think you have any intention of seriously listening to what anybody has said as you believe you can pull yourself out of rock bottom without doing so. Sadly with this line of thinking--bankruptcy is just around the corner and it just might not be your choice--but your necessity to go through with it.

Do as suggested and cut the private school, allowances, Disney trips--reduce the contribution to 401K even further...or we may hear from you in 9 months with pleas on how to save your house from foreclosure.

And when everyone says "plan ahead"--please don't include Disney trips in that planning.

We would love to see your next Disney planning thread to be---"Outta Debt and we're going to Disney Debt-Free!!!!"

 

[MELSMICE]

I've been thinking about this thread & I think the reason the OP doesn't REALLY want to cut back on things like a car or private school is because then what will the "Joneses" think?

Sounds to me like it's been all about keeping with the Joneses & it's finally caught up with them.

 

[westjones]

I've been thinking about doing something like this for quite awhile in anticipation of our upcoming trip. I was going to call it something goofy like "Disney Saturday Nights" or something like that where we could watch Disney videos and talk all things Disney. Thanks for sharing this idea!

I like this idea! Often they show Disney movies on ABC on Saturday night, but the library has lots of Disney videos.

This would be fun! I may steal this idea in the fall when I am trying to find ways for our family to hang together without spending money.

DJ

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I've been thinking about this thread & I think the reason the OP doesn't REALLY want to cut back on things like a car or private school is because then what will the "Joneses" think?

Sounds to me like it's been all about keeping with the Joneses & it's finally caught up with them.

Posted at the same time with the same thought----

wow!



I totally agree with you!

 

[MELSMICE]

Posted at the same time with the same thought----

wow!



I totally agree with you!

Wow - that was freaky!!!