Photo sharing: Sony Alpha

We miss you too Havoc - you are always welcome. I would love to hear your comparisons of the Nikon vs. A99.


As far as a pro-level A9, I'm fascinating in seeing how this effects the overall camera market and how much of a disturbance it will make with high-end DSLRs.

The SARS article stated that the A7 series was sorta of a "test" to see the reaction of mirrorless with serious amateurs and pros. Apparently, the interest exceeded Sony expectations.

There is a disturbance in the force....

I doubt that Canon and Nikon users are going to switch in droves. High end users are deeply invested in their systems. Even as an advanced hobbyist, I was very hesitant to change.

But I do think a pro a9 would draw a bit more of the high end market share away from Canon and Nikon.

Watching Sony for several years, their path has been interesting. They clearly never intended the e-mount to be for advanced users. Early versions of NEX were marketed as dslr quality in a point and shoot. The lenses weren't great. The menu system was very basic and point and shootish.

Then something happened -- despite these shortcomings, pros started to show interest. Canon/Nikon pros who never gave a-mount a thought, were showing interest in e-mount. The high quality in a smaller package, ability to adapt their existing lenses...

So around 2013, Sony basically put the a-mount on hold. They completely re-positioned e-mount to try to make it a serious dSLR competitor. They dropped the NEX and gave it the more serious Alpha title. They changed the camera menus to match the more advanced dslr menus. They started releasing premium lenses, and they released full frame bodies.

And suddenly... Professional publications were no longer talking about Canon v Nikon. Now they were all talking about Canon v Nikon v Sony e-mount.

The a9 being the final piece of the puzzle... To put e-mount on serious standing with dSLRs across the board.

.... Anyway, I did a review of the d750 vs a99 elsewhere. I'll post it here as well.
 
My A99 versus D750 review, from another message board and adapted:


Let me start out where the 2 cameras are about equal. They both feel good in the hand, not too heavy. They both have nicely sized viewfinders. At base ISO, they both offer an amazing amount of dynamic range. And they both produce very similar IQ up to around ISO 1600, not surprising since the Nikon is using a Sony sensor.

Despite being 2 years older than the D750, the A99 has many strengths over the D750. I'm not going to list every tiny item, but I want to address the big items. The D750 has a pretty nice build quality, but the A99 has an even better build quality. The D750 battery door feels like it is going to snap off every time I remove the battery. The whole camera has a plasticky feel, where the A99 felt like a serious machine.

In terms of specs, the A99 has a couple of advantages. The A99 does have the faster maximum shutter speed, at 1/8000 vs 1/4000 and higher flash sync speed at 1/250 instead of 1/200. In a couple weeks of shooting, this hasn't matter to me at all. But it could occasionally come into play for some people.

But there are a couple other features, easily dismissed, that I will miss. Every vacation I ever took, I used the in-camera panorama at least a couple of times. That's missing. And the A99 has much more advanced in-camera HDR modes. In fact, the A99 has far more jpeg features like multi-frame noise reduction. I never used these features often, but I used them on occasion, and there will be moments where I miss them.

I also found the function button and menus a bit more intuitive on the A99. The D750 has a customizable "my menu" but it requires more button pushes and doesn't work as well as the function button on the A99.

Steady shot -- This is a mixed bag. I have found Nikon VR lenses to offer far more stabilization than Sony Steady Shot. But Steady Shot does have the great strength of applying to EVERY lens. This certainly allowed me to expand my glass with lenses from the 1980's and 1990's, fully secure in the knowledge they would get some stabilization.

And speaking of those vintage lenses...... One of the great things about my A99, was my Minolta 200/2.8. A lens I bought for about $650, that delivered incredible performance. I still believe the IQ was on the same level as any modern $1500+ lens. Plus of course, it was stabilized on the Sony A99 body. Considering price, quality and size, I have not seen a truly equivalent lens in the Nikon lineup.

Last but not least, in discussing the A99 strengths -- the EVF and live view. Live view is actually a bit similar on the D750, most of the same features. But of course, it works much much slower. And it lacks focus peaking, though it does have focus magnification which I always found more useful than peaking.

But the big difference is the EVF versus OVF. For 90% of uses, the EVF is preferable. The OVF suddenly looks very dark after using EVF for a couple of years. I miss judging my white balance in the EVF. And chimping shots in the EVF is much better than chimping on an LCD.

The advantages of the D750, compared to the A99:

High ISO performance --- It's not negligible. It's significant. On the A99, I had to start applying noise reduction at ISO 1600. I could get great shots at 6400, but it required very careful noise reduction. And 12800 could reach the level of barely usable, with minimally sufficient dynamic range. On the D750, I don't need any noise reduction until about ISO 6400... and 12800 still has plenty of dynamic range, and simply requires a moderate amount of noise reduction. I would say it's about a 1 1/2 stop in real world ISO performance difference.

The other biggie is Autofocus. The D750 has locked focus for me instantly in near darkness. The AF points are generously spread across the viewfinder in comparison to the A99. Focus tracking is far more consistent and reliable. That's partly the OVF as well -- making it easier to track action than the EVF.

Though in some ways I prefer the menu system on the A99, the D750 has some far superior customization. I won't touch on every menu item, but there is one big one ---- The ISO/shutter speed sensitivity. On the A99, I always shot manual. When shooting A-priority, I never liked the shutter speeds the camera chose. On the D750, I love being able to choose --- I can set a minimum shutter speed before raising ISO. I can let it shoot at 1/focal length. Or, I can let it shoot at slightly faster/slower than 1/focal length. As I have unsteady hands in general, this is the setting I like the most, just a slightly faster shutter speed. Luckily, it was pretty easy to shoot M on the A99. But I feel like I've been given a really useful Aperture priority mode, that was worthless on the A99 for me.

Pop-up flash and the Nikon flash system. For years, I heard about how bad the Sony flash system was compared to Nikon. Now I really understand it. I do use off camera flash. And the Nikon D750 makes it incredibly easy and efficient compared to Sony. I can control flash ratios simply from the body, no need to buy a F60 solely as a flash commander. And it is nice to have a pop-up flash --- to serve as a flash trigger, and also to act as a fill flash in some settings.

Finally, the lens lineup. I defended the Sony lens lineup for years, denying that it was really lacking. I was wrong. For a full frame user, the Sony lens lineup is woefully deficient compared to Nikon. First off, modern vibration reduction technology is superior to steady shot. On steadyshot, I felt I got about 2 stops of stabilization. On a VR lens, I feel I'm getting a solid 3-4 stops.

In terms of lens features... Nikon has silent wave motors on 20 lenses that are under $600. Compared to zero on Sony in that price range.

In terms of lens choices and lens IQ --- Sony has a few great lenses if you're willing to pay a premium. But for example, at a fraction of the price of the 70-200/2.8 lenses, Nikon offers a 70-200/4.. far smaller, far cheaper. But the IQ is just as good as the 70-200/2.8 lenses. Nothing similar from Sony. Sony only offers 2 zoom lenses that touch 24mm --- and they are both mega expensive Zeiss lenses. Sony only has one ultrawide -- the $2,000 Zeiss 16-35. Nikon has a 14-24 for the same price... and a 16-35/4 which is cheaper, and a very high quality 18-35 which is much cheaper. There are far more ways to assemble a high quality kit with Nikon.

My conclusion: There is no reason for A99 owners to dump their cameras in mass. The A99 remains a great camera, and continues to have many advantages over the D750.

But, considering they are somewhat similar in price, I do feel the D750 can be a better tool with higher potential. It will give the photographer a wider selection of lenses, higher potential IQ at medium and high ISOs, and a better autofocus system.

That said, the EVF system has many inherent advantages If Sony were to upgrade the A99 with many of the benefits in the D750, and spend more time growing the A-mount lens selection, it would be one killer camera and camera system.

I don't feel right posting Nikon pictures in this thread, but I'm going to link to a photograph. I just am demonstrating a few factors that I discussed in this review:

First, this shot was at ISO 11400 -- I did add noise reduction and sharpening in lightroom, but really very little. To me, this looks better than I would get with 6400 on the A99.
Secondly, this was using the newest vibration reduction technology. Shot at 200mm and 1/6th of a second. So that is a massive degree of stabilization. On the A99 with Steadyshot, it would be very very hard for me to get a sharp picture slower than about 1/50 at 200mm. But I am able to get a good number of keepers below 1/10th of a second (assuming my subject isn't moving of course).

https://flic.kr/p/p5JfrY
 
Lightroom vs. DXO

Here's an interesting comparison of a photo shot in RAW and processed in both LR and DXO (using Prime Noise reduction). I tried to keep the "amount" of NR equal for both images when processing, as well as the exposure and other setting. Not perfectly scientific but I think gives a fair representation of the NR engines of each software.



Lightroom

DSC03049-X2.jpg



DXO Prime

DSC03049_DxO-X2.jpg


Which do you prefer?

I preferred the first shot from Lightroom. Yes, it has visibly more noise. But the DXO Prime made the skin look plasticky, and the white balance is really poor on the DXO prime shot.

Skin texture is really the big challenge of high ISO and noise reduction. Of non-human objects, I can be quite happy with ultra high ISO and noise reduction. But skin textures are much harder than artificial objects.
 
Fractal, I much prefer the first one too. I don't mind noise but I hate smeared detail. I really never use NR.

Havoc, I wish sony would put out some good "affordable" lenses. I tried the A7 twice but just couldn't click with it. Better AF and faster processing would be great.
 

Thanks for the input gentlemen. Usually I prefer the DXO NR but agree with the skin looking "plasticy". I'm also not as familar with DXO as I am LR so it may be user input.

Harry - how is your Fuji treating you? Do you only use native lenses or have you adopted other lenses?

Havoc,

Thanks for your "compare and contrast" review. Nice job on pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of both. I feel I'm soon ready for another camera and have been tossing around moving up to FF vs. APS-C and if so, staying with Sony or not. I'm a fan of mirrorless so as it stands now, Sony would be the only option for FF, plus my lenses and adapters would still work in some capacity. I'm close to buying a "Lens Turbo" adapter to use with my legacy lenses and see if that will satisfy my FF urge.
 
Thanks for the input gentlemen. Usually I prefer the DXO NR but agree with the skin looking "plasticy". I'm also not as familar with DXO as I am LR so it may be user input.

Harry - how is your Fuji treating you? Do you only use native lenses or have you adopted other lenses?

Havoc,

Thanks for your "compare and contrast" review. Nice job on pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of both. I feel I'm soon ready for another camera and have been tossing around moving up to FF vs. APS-C and if so, staying with Sony or not. I'm a fan of mirrorless so as it stands now, Sony would be the only option for FF, plus my lenses and adapters would still work in some capacity. I'm close to buying a "Lens Turbo" adapter to use with my legacy lenses and see if that will satisfy my FF urge.

The differences between mirrorless and traditional are exaggerated by people on both sides of the argument. Ultimately, you will get indistinguishable results from either. Mirrorless are better than "traditionalist" give them credit for. And traditional mirrored dSLRs are not nearly as ancient and outdated as mirrorless fans tend to think.

You love your e-mount shooting, so staying mirrorless certainly makes sense for you.

The debate between full frame and APS-C.... So much is being written that with advances, you no longer "need" full frame, and that most users will never see a difference between APS-C and full frame.
I think that's entirely true, BUT... While your average shooter with their Walmart purchased dSLR and kit lens won't ever appreciate the difference between APS-C and full frame, the advanced enthusiast/professional/hobbyist will notice the difference. Just like you noticed the difference between yoru Soliger 200 and the Minolta 200.
Secondly, full frame is definitely a luxury... but it has become more affordable, making it an affordable luxury for some.

A turbo booster will give you some of the benefits of full frame. I don't know enough about it to comment.

You might want to wait and check out the rumored A9. As of now, the A7 isn't that compelling to me. If I'm going to spend a good sum of money on a premium camera, I don't want to have to make toooooo many compromises. The camera should be all-around better than my cheaper APS-C options.
Given that the A6000 is super responsive with super fast AF, while the A7 series is more like a tortoise.. Full frame isn't worth giving up responsiveness to me.
The A9 may conceivably give you both.

In terms of legacy lenses, etc.... You know I'm a fan of finding value in lenses. And there are legacy lenses that are marvelous (such as the Minolta 200). But if you are going to invest in full frame, you need to get picky with your lenses or else it is a waste. Not saying you need to buy the newest Zeiss lenses, but you can't just throw on any bargain glass.

I shot with the Tamron 70-300 on the A55. It is a well-reviewed lens. I was always very happy with the results. But then when I put the lens on the A99, it suddenly felt very "eh." Results weren't bad but I was no longer thrilled. Then I got the Minolta 200/2.8... and the Tamron 70-300 just collected dust. A couple times, when I needed reach or the convenience of a zoom, I tried the Tamron again. But the results were so inferior to the Minolta 200,, that the Tamron got buried in the closet and eventually sold.

So as you upgrade... better glass, full frame, etc.. your eye becomes more discriminating.... high resolution/full frame exposes lens flaws more than APS-C..

So if you walk into full frame, you need to go in with the knowledge that you are likely going to want to upgrade some of your glass.
 
Hello everybody! I don't see why everyone worries so much about sensor size so much. Will it make you a better photographer? NO!!!!!!! I've shot with almost everything and my photos are the same with all formats. I probably couldn't pick out my shots based on the camera without looking at the EXIF.

Fractal, you need to check out FujiX-Forum.com and FujiRumors.com. You'll see that a lot of Pros have converted from FF to Fuji, even for wedding photography.

I use native lenses on the Fuji. I currently have the 16-50, 35 f1.4 and 23 f1.4. I just bought the 23 and it's amazing. All of Fuji's lenses are top notch and equal to Canon's L series. They have aperture rings and build quality is very good too. The only lenses I've used that are equal would be the Pentax limiteds. The 35 is sharp across the frame at 1.4.

If you like old school controls and feel you have to buy either Leica or Fuji. It's a no gimmicks camera and fuji is committed to customer support and firmware updates that make a difference(actually improve the cameras).

Here is a photo with the 23 @1.4 pretty much SOOC. I think I used the Pro Neg Hi film simulation in camera.

Fractal, I remember you saying fuji photos look flat. What do you think about this one?


Audubon Zoo Carousel by Harry Shields, on Flickr
 
Trying to catch up on my photos after a busy October. Started using the high pass sharpening technique again in Photoshop and side by side it does help without adding too much noise.


Gringotts bank in Diagon Alley at Universal Orlando
Dragon by Mike Sperduto, on Flickr

Dale out and about in Animal Kingdom
Dale by Mike Sperduto, on Flickr
 
Harry,

Thanks for the insight and I have wandered into "FujiRumors" from time to time. Fuji's native lens selection is superior to Sony E - no doubt.

Nice photo - can't say that looks flat. :) It's great as a hobbyist to have so many quality choices. My next camera purchase will be important for me as I still have time to switch systems before being too financially committed to Sony Emount. I could even get an adapter for the Minolta 200mm and other legacy lenses if I moved to Xmount.

For now I will wait to see what the new A9 offers and go from there.


Mike,

Great shot of the dragon!
 
I really have to look into if I want to continue with Sony or start looking other places. I don't like the bodies of the new A mount cameras. I use my camera mostly for hockey pictures, pictures of bear and deer at the cabin and of course Disney. I got to use a friends Cannon at a birthday party and I particularly didn't like it. Of course, it could be the model she had. I am also going to keep looking on B&H's website for a "great condition" used A77. It is a couple steps higher than my A57, so it would be an upgrade right now.

I am just so scared to switch systems. I was a Minolta film camera user first, then their digital (which I must say still works...and I use that as my back up) and now to Sony so there hasn't been much difference in the way my camera works.
 
I never had the previous Minolta affiliation - I decided on Sony coming from Canon and Pentax film cameras because I liked many of the unique features and abilities their DSLRs had compared to anyone else's. And I've always liked their size, and handling. That continues for me - I still find nothing that gives me the exact same combination of features, ergonomics, performance, etc that I get from the Sony bodies - that includes the larger, deeper grips and bodies, the seamless live view experience that doesn't lose any performance compared to OVF or EVF viewing, the excellent built-in processing features like HDR, multi-frame NR, stitch pano, etc that still work better than anyone else's, the smart batteries with proper readouts, and good performance specs with good sensors. I can find all the lenses I need within the Alpha system, and the e-mount system still has a few holes I'd like filled, but since it's a second body for me, it's not as urgent. And I have always liked Sony's colors over Canon's. You always have to weigh compromises vs gains, and the few things I'd gain from another body still don't outweigh the number of things I'd lose. Per the old question: if you could be reimbursed for the expense of all your gear, and start fresh, what system would you choose...as the market stands now, for me it would still be Sony. Not because I am a Sony fan (I don't even have any other Sony product), but just because the cameras' price, ergonomics, designs, features, and performance are the best mix to meet my needs and likes.
 
I really have to look into if I want to continue with Sony or start looking other places. I don't like the bodies of the new A mount cameras. I use my camera mostly for hockey pictures, pictures of bear and deer at the cabin and of course Disney. I got to use a friends Cannon at a birthday party and I particularly didn't like it. Of course, it could be the model she had. I am also going to keep looking on B&H's website for a "great condition" used A77. It is a couple steps higher than my A57, so it would be an upgrade right now.

I am just so scared to switch systems. I was a Minolta film camera user first, then their digital (which I must say still works...and I use that as my back up) and now to Sony so there hasn't been much difference in the way my camera works.

If you have a collection of lenses, it's a big incentive to stay. But if you don't have glass holding you back, changing really isn't scary.

If you can squeeze it into your budget, I'd suggest looking at the A77ii over the A77. It really is very well priced at $899 right now, and you could probably get a bit of money selling your A57. I just don't see the A77 as being a big enough upgrade over the A57 to be worth spending money on -- You'd be moving to a more professional better built camera body, with a better EVF and higher resolution. But otherwise, not much would change.

Except for increased resolution, you won't experience an increase in image quality. You won't meaningfully improve your autofocus (a few extra focus points on the A77). You'll get weather sealing.

But the A77ii will get you a much much improved autofocus system, Wifi, stabilized viewfinder, noticeably better low light performance (especially in jpeg).

You can trade in your A57 to KEH for $200-$300 depending on condition, or sell it yourself somewhere for $300-$350. I think reputable re-sellers like Adorama, B&H, KEH, will charge around $600 for a top condition A77.

So an A77 would cost you net $300-$400, while the A77ii would cost you net $600-$700.

Putting aside the camera body, the Sony 16-50 lens makes the A77/77ii shine. If you really want to notice a major difference, you "need" the upgraded lens.

In fact, the best way to upgrade on a limited budget -- Skip the camera body for now, and just get the 16-50 and stick it on your A57! It makes a major difference. Used, you can get it for under $500. If you buy it new, packaged with the A77ii -- it is $1500, so you are paying $600 for the lens "new."
 
If you have a collection of lenses, it's a big incentive to stay. But if you don't have glass holding you back, changing really isn't scary.

If you can squeeze it into your budget, I'd suggest looking at the A77ii over the A77. It really is very well priced at $899 right now, and you could probably get a bit of money selling your A57. I just don't see the A77 as being a big enough upgrade over the A57 to be worth spending money on -- You'd be moving to a more professional better built camera body, with a better EVF and higher resolution. But otherwise, not much would change.

Except for increased resolution, you won't experience an increase in image quality. You won't meaningfully improve your autofocus (a few extra focus points on the A77). You'll get weather sealing.

But the A77ii will get you a much much improved autofocus system, Wifi, stabilized viewfinder, noticeably better low light performance (especially in jpeg).

You can trade in your A57 to KEH for $200-$300 depending on condition, or sell it yourself somewhere for $300-$350. I think reputable re-sellers like Adorama, B&H, KEH, will charge around $600 for a top condition A77.

So an A77 would cost you net $300-$400, while the A77ii would cost you net $600-$700.

Putting aside the camera body, the Sony 16-50 lens makes the A77/77ii shine. If you really want to notice a major difference, you "need" the upgraded lens.

In fact, the best way to upgrade on a limited budget -- Skip the camera body for now, and just get the 16-50 and stick it on your A57! It makes a major difference. Used, you can get it for under $500. If you buy it new, packaged with the A77ii -- it is $1500, so you are paying $600 for the lens "new."

How's that 16-50 look on the A99?
 
How's that 16-50 look on the A99?

Like a waste. It's an APS-C lens. So stick it onto the A99, and the A99 goes into crop mode -- a 10mp image. It's a really nice 10mp image, but a little pointless.

The lens I wanted for the A99 was the Sigma 24-105. But their delays in releasing it, was a small part of what drove me away from Sony.

I feel Sony does APS-C glass pretty well -- Their 16-50 is top notch, and possibly superior to the similar Canon/Nikon lenses -- cheaper and wider, and same level of IQ.

The Sony APS-C 35/1.8 is a pretty nice prime. The 55-300 is reviewed as being very sharp as well as being very affordable.

When people suggest staying away from Sony because of the lens lineup, I think it's nonsense when talking about a typical APS-C shooter. A casual APS-C photographer who is never going to own more than 2-5 lenses, can do just fine with Sony.

On the other hand, full frame users are seriously lacking in options. There are top notch and top dollar Zeiss lenses, but moderate options are really lacking.

On the D750, I'm enjoying a 24-85 that I bought refurb for $300. It might not be constant aperture, it certainly isn't the quality of a Zeiss. But it is pretty darn good, it has VR, it has some weather sealing and silent focus, and it has pretty good image quality... and it's cheap. Other than the $2k Zeiss, the only walk-around zoom offered by Sony is the SAL28-75/2.8. I had it... it's nice. But it's more expensive than the 24-85, it has SAM focus, not SSM, it isn't very wide, and probably not much sharper than my 24-85.

I picked up a 50/1.8 -- Sony doesn't even offer a full frame 50/1.8. They do have an overpriced 50/1.4 which hasn't been updated since Minolta version -- still is a screw drive lens. And my favorite lens is my Nikon 70-200/4. Not cheap at all, but much cheaper than a Sony or Nikon 70-200/2.8, half the weight, and equally sharp. Such an option simply doesn't exist in the Sony lineup.
So I own 3 lenses for Nikon -- And all 3 don't really exist in the Sony lineup.

Minolta glass and 3rd party glass is a necessity for a Sony full frame shooter unless you want a Zeiss trinity.
 
If you have a collection of lenses, it's a big incentive to stay. But if you don't have glass holding you back, changing really isn't scary. If you can squeeze it into your budget, I'd suggest looking at the A77ii over the A77. It really is very well priced at $899 right now, and you could probably get a bit of money selling your A57. I just don't see the A77 as being a big enough upgrade over the A57 to be worth spending money on -- You'd be moving to a more professional better built camera body, with a better EVF and higher resolution. But otherwise, not much would change. Except for increased resolution, you won't experience an increase in image quality. You won't meaningfully improve your autofocus (a few extra focus points on the A77). You'll get weather sealing. But the A77ii will get you a much much improved autofocus system, Wifi, stabilized viewfinder, noticeably better low light performance (especially in jpeg). You can trade in your A57 to KEH for $200-$300 depending on condition, or sell it yourself somewhere for $300-$350. I think reputable re-sellers like Adorama, B&H, KEH, will charge around $600 for a top condition A77. So an A77 would cost you net $300-$400, while the A77ii would cost you net $600-$700. Putting aside the camera body, the Sony 16-50 lens makes the A77/77ii shine. If you really want to notice a major difference, you "need" the upgraded lens. In fact, the best way to upgrade on a limited budget -- Skip the camera body for now, and just get the 16-50 and stick it on your A57! It makes a major difference. Used, you can get it for under $500. If you buy it new, packaged with the A77ii -- it is $1500, so you are paying $600 for the lens "new."

Thanks for the info. I do have a good amount of lenses not over the top amount of lenses (4 or 5). I was looking at the A77ii, but right now my A57 is working just fine. I think if the funds are in the good by next summer I might be able to score a good deal on an A77ii.
 
Something I don't photograph as often as birds, but thought it would be fun - stage shows! Here are some from my vacation 2 weeks ago, with the A6000 & 55-210mm lens, taken from about 90 feet from the stage, slightly elevated - the song-and-dance show was fairy-tale oriented, so it has a close connection to Disney even though it's not OFFICIAL Disney:
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I would like to counter our first snow of the season with a couple of warmer images.

floridakeys%20250-XL.jpg


floridakeys%20558-XL.jpg
 
Thanks Mike - those were taken in the Keys with my old NEX-3.

I really need to get to Universal!


Here's a shot with the Minolta 200mm.

Lacrosse eyes.

DSC03305-XL.jpg
 


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