Overly helpful Disney guests or Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity

Oliviaxxx

Mouseketeer
Joined
Jul 6, 2018
I agree there is a right and wrong way to approach helping someone who is handicapped. My mom used an ECV for Disney. We rode Space Mountain and she needed to transport to a manual chair to go in the queue. I was dying pushing her up that incline lol! We had a FP so there wasn't much wait so I never got to pause and rest. When I paused for a split second I had to hold on to the chair because it was rolling back on me. A very nice man was behind me with his family and offered to push my mom for me. He was so kind and very respectful. I don't think anyone who offers or attempts to help has bad intention but agree there are boundaries.
 

cobright

DIS Veteran
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Perhaps instead of trying to be helpful during your next trip, they will all be rude, unhelpful, and brusque in manner in any of their interactions with you when they aren't flat out ignoring you.
I can't speak for Staren, but it's my experience that people trying to be helpful by doing unhelpful dangerous things is actually worse than people ignoring you or being rude. It's weird that these seem like the only two options to you though.

Just perhaps, people might learn to assume that an otherwise healthy and hale adult in a wheelchair would have their stuff together before venturing into a crowded amusement park and just extend the same courtesy and helpfulness as any other human being they come across.

Excusing bad behavior on the basis of good intentions does not make the world a better place.
 

DisneyOma

DIS Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
I can't speak for Staren, but it's my experience that people trying to be helpful by doing unhelpful dangerous things is actually worse than people ignoring you or being rude. It's weird that these seem like the only two options to you though.

Just perhaps, people might learn to assume that an otherwise healthy and hale adult in a wheelchair would have their stuff together before venturing into a crowded amusement park and just extend the same courtesy and helpfulness as any other human being they come across.

Excusing bad behavior on the basis of good intentions does not make the world a better place.
Since this is all based on a person's judgement, you're saying we should just basically ignore each other and never help someone as they should "have their stuff together" anyways?
 
  • Wubar

    Stop asking about "worth". Totally subjective.
    Joined
    Oct 4, 2017
    I can't speak for Staren, but it's my experience that people trying to be helpful by doing unhelpful dangerous things is actually worse than people ignoring you or being rude. It's weird that these seem like the only two options to you though.

    Just perhaps, people might learn to assume that an otherwise healthy and hale adult in a wheelchair would have their stuff together before venturing into a crowded amusement park and just extend the same courtesy and helpfulness as any other human being they come across.

    Excusing bad behavior on the basis of good intentions does not make the world a better place.
    Oh, those aren't my only two options, I typed my sarcastic response based on the use of the term "stupidity" in the title of the message thread. Ridiculous.
     

    kaytieeldr

    Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
    Joined
    Jun 11, 2005
    Since this is all based on a person's judgement, you're saying we should just basically ignore each other and never help someone as they should "have their stuff together" anyways?
    Let the person ask for help. Or use common sense. If you're going through a door and see me* coming, great, hold the door. But don't grab a door handle out of the hand of someone in a wheelchair. It could throw them off balance, even onto the floor.
    Oh, those aren't my only two options, I typed my sarcastic response based on the use of the term "stupidity" in the title of the message thread. Ridiculous.
    I guess, put yourself in the OP's position? Based on his actual experience, the action is stupid - no matter how well-intentioned.
     

    arminnie

    <font color=blue>Tossed the butter kept the gin<br
    Joined
    Aug 22, 2003
    I am in a wheelchair. When it's a door that I push open I will absolutely hold the door for the person behind me. That's just common courtesy not to let a door slam back into someone if you can prevent it. If it's a door that I pull open and there's a person behind me I will try to give them a chance to catch the door.
     

    cobright

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jan 6, 2013
    Since this is all based on a person's judgement, you're saying we should just basically ignore each other and never help someone as they should "have their stuff together" anyways?
    What I'm proposing is that being in a wheelchair is not indication enough that a person is in need of one's assistance.

    Just treat them the same as anyone else. This is important. It's not to coddle their self esteem. Here's why...

    When a person moves from one point to another their brain processes what they see, computes the location, speed, and direction of any moving or static obstacles, and plots a course based on a prediction of where all of those objects will be at any given moment of the immediate future.

    This whole process is largely autonomic. For mobility challenged, the portion of this where they control their travel is ~less~ automatic, which increases their reaction time to some degree, which makes the prediction portion of the process more important.

    When people radically change their behavior without an actual cause, it can make the lives of people driving ecv/wheelies more difficult.

    * - I don't pretend to speak for mobility challenged people. I have a couple less abled friends, one of whom is dear to me and we talk on the subject a lot, but my commentary here is based on my development of an obstacle avoidance system for her power chair. The computer control must do with code what the human mind does subconsciously and all that is involved is pretty impressive. When I model the code behavior, I can set the unpredictability of moving obstacle (people) behavior and observe how much more computation is necessary vs. when moving obstacles are oblivious (ignoring). 10 years ago putting that sort of computer in a wheelchair wouldn't have been feasible. Now we put it in a quad-copter.
     
  • Lilsia

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 17, 2018
    ’ve had people come up behind me and try to help push me up a hill when I’m in the middle of pushing my way along.
    That is so odd that people do that. The thought would never pop into my head to just start pushing a stranger in their wheelchair. If someone is in obvious distress, then going up to them and asking if you can help in some way is appropriate, but not just grabbing.
     

    DisneyOma

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 27, 2015
    Let the person ask for help. Or use common sense. If you're going through a door and see me* coming, great, hold the door. But don't grab a door handle out of the hand of someone in a wheelchair. It could throw them off balance, even onto the floor.
    Which isn't what the PP stated - so that's why I posted. Of course we should all use common sense, but one person's experiences in life are not the same as another's, so everyone has a different view of common sense. And that's what we are discussing here, the point that one person cannot be sure that another person is one way or another. It's always important to ask first, if that's possible. But it doesn't mean that we should assume one person has all their stuff together. If people had all their stuff together, WDW wouldn't need the DAS, would it?

    When people radically change their behavior without an actual cause, it can make the lives of people driving ecv/wheelies more difficult.
    People never change behavior without a cause. There's always a cause. Cause/effect, right? Someone else may not know the cause, but there's a cause.
     

    cobright

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jan 6, 2013
    People never change behavior without a cause. There's always a cause. Cause/effect, right? Someone else may not know the cause, but there's a cause.
    If I, with my 2 good legs, were walking down Mainstreet USA and someone deviated from their course to 'help' push me along it would cause more problems than it solved.

    That's why I used the term, actual cause. Someone radically changes their predictable behavior in order to do something they think is being helpful, but is 'actually' completely unnecessary; that can make things harder than if the same people had taken no notice at all.

    It's like the car that stops at intersections to let other cars go even though it has the right of way. The driver thinks they are being courteous, but in reality they are just adding uncertainty to a dangerous situation.
     

    Lilsia

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 17, 2018
    It's like the car that stops at intersections to let other cars go even though it has the right of way. The driver thinks they are being courteous, but in reality they are just adding uncertainty to a dangerous situation.
    Glad to see that I am not the only one annoyed by this. Everyone just needs to do what they are supposed to do and everything flows right.
     
  • gap2368

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 27, 2015
    It's like the car that stops at intersections to let other cars go even though it has the right of way. The driver thinks they are being courteous, but in reality they are just adding uncertainty to a dangerous situation.

    this is one of my pet peeves I can not stand this I had someone stop on a busy road at a yellow blinking light to let a car go out now this is a 4 line road and the car had to cross both lain to turn left. the only reason why I did not hit the car that was turning left is I slowed down because what car in there right mind would stop in the middle of a busy street. ( I hope this made since)

    I also can not stand those people that feel a need to hold the door opened yes if I am right behind you are a few seconds behind but some people will hold the door if you are anywhere in sight and might go through the door. I have stopped in my tracks and taken out my phone and just looked at until the person holding the door goes away. then other are the people that want to hold the door for you and they want you to go first but they are standing in the doorway, I just look at them and say sorry but I can not go through you and I will stand here until you go first. I am all for being nice but some people go way to fair with it while other need to think before they react.
     

    Staren

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    May 24, 2017
    Everyone just needs to do what they are supposed to do and everything flows right.
    This is my attitude to a lot of these issues. Even for accessibility there is a process in place that fits most cases anymore. A good example would be hen I was waiting at the “please wait for cast member” accessible location for CoP last year. Some guest comes up and asks me if I need help opening the chain, and before I can explain how the process works she starts messing with the screwed in side of the chain before the CM gets there and waves her off. In my head I’m like did you not see the sign?

    Everything flows if you follow the established process if there is one.
     

    Lilsia

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 17, 2018
    This is my attitude to a lot of these issues. Even for accessibility there is a process in place that fits most cases anymore. A good example would be hen I was waiting at the “please wait for cast member” accessible location for CoP last year. Some guest comes up and asks me if I need help opening the chain, and before I can explain how the process works she starts messing with the screwed in side of the chain before the CM gets there and waves her off. In my head I’m like did you not see the sign?

    Everything flows if you follow the established process if there is one.
    I have to say that it has been 2 days since I originally read the posts and I am still kind of shocked that people just come up and start pushing your wheel chair.
     

    Staren

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    May 24, 2017
    Yes it's absolutely crazy. It's not like it happens a lot, but it does happen. Happened on Space Mountain back when they still had the moving walk way at the exit. I stop pushing on those and let them carry me for safety. Well a family behind me was in a hurry and thought I should be moving faster than the walk way, so the mom grabs my chair and starts hoofing it.
     

    Holly

    Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile.
    Joined
    Jan 17, 2005
    In 2016 my 13 year old daughter was viewing pins at a kiosk in AK and someone tried to “help” her by pushing her chair from behind. My daughter’s fingers were in the wheel (as she’d been in the process of moving herself) and two of her fingers were sprained.

    No one felt worse than the lady who did it. I felt for her because I know she was just trying to be kind, but moving someone’s wheelchair without warning is dangerous.
     

    nyviolet

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Nov 28, 2017
    People do grab my chair and start pushing sometimes. They don't know how to avoid/go over bumps and cracks and the slight lips on the edges of curb cuts. I have nearly been dumped out of my chair a few times. This is something never to do without asking and please accept the answer if it is no thanks. This often happens when I am crossing the street, which I am perfectly capable of doing, and can do quickly.
     

    boojiboo

    Stitch geek
    Joined
    Feb 15, 2019
    You're 100% correct, Staren. If somebody sees me struggling and asks if I need help, fine. But if I decline, then they should respect that. And like others here, I've had people just start pushing my chair because they decided without asking that I needed help (I didn't). And I am very easy to injure. I would rather be ignored because I'm just part of the crowd than have my wishes and autonomy ignored because I'm disabled and therefore somehow not able to decide for myself.
     

    bumbershoot

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 5, 2007
    But it doesn't mean that we should assume one person has all their stuff together.

    Of course, that’s not what cobright said. The starred part below was, IMO, the point. Or at least that’s what I took as the point of that sentence.



    ...people might learn to assume that an otherwise healthy and hale adult in a wheelchair would have their stuff together before venturing into a crowded amusement park **and just extend the same courtesy and helpfulness as any other human being they come across.**

    That’s the key. I mean, all of us can have our stuff together but still need help.


    I thought of this thread the other day at the store with my tall teen son (who is used to getting stuff for me since I’m short). We saw a man in a wheelchair reaching up for a tub of cream cheese. He was really stretching, but not quite there yet.

    At first I was filled with trepidation as my son rushed over. Ack, was he going to just grab the cream cheese and take away the autonomy of the man?

    And then I breathed again as he said “would you like me to get that for you, sir?” Oh happy days. The man said yes, my son got it and handed it to the man, asked if he could be of more assistance, and when told “no thank you” he moved along.

    Taking that moment to ask makes all the difference.

    It's like the car that stops at intersections to let other cars go even though it has the right of way. The driver thinks they are being courteous, but in reality they are just adding uncertainty to a dangerous situation.
    We actually had a car vs middle schoolers accident a bit over a year ago, because a van in the lane next to the sidewalk decided to stop for two girls on the sidewalk at an unmarked intersection. Waved them across. As they went, a car coming up in the other same-direction lane had no idea why the van was stopped, and continued on. The girls were thankfully basically fine. And it promoted an excellent citywide discussion of the law. And our law is that if the pedestrian is IN the road, the cars must stop. If the pedestrian is on the sidewalk, then nope. If you see someone stopped, take a moment to think there might be a good reason. And you should never stop and hope that someone else will understand why.

    The van driver thought he was doing a good deed, but it helped get the girls hit. Thankfully it is a 30mph zone so it wasn’t a worse situation.

    Now one of those push button flashing lights with an actual crosswalk is being put in.
     
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