our school is making me furious.

[Luv Bunnies]

To the OP - I really don't think your school is striving for lower test scores to get extra funding. I work at a school that's just getting out of a School Improvement Program. The principal and asst. principal worked very hard for several years to improve the test scores and get out of the program. The teachers worked their butts off to get the kids up to their grade levels. They finally scored high enough on the last round of testing to get into "safe harbor." The scores have to remain at present levels or go up in the next two years to get completely off the improvement program. Everyone in the school is thrilled at the progress and there was a big staff celebration when they broke the news.

Whatever the reason for the teachers controlling what the kids read, it's most assuredly not because they want to hold test scores down.

 

[genius118899]

As far as I'm concerned, parental involvement makes way more of a difference than where your children go to school. If you can't afford private school or to stay home and homeschool, but you're in contact with your child's teachers and keep up with their homework, etc., they'll be fine. If you send your child to private school, figuring you're doing a good job but don't follow up, they won't be. This is coming from a Catholic school graduate who is currently on a full scholarship at a prestigious private university.

 

[dis-happy]

A note to the ivy league-er (under the assumption you're never too old to learn):

"imperitive" should be spelled "imperative"
and "shutter" used in that context should be spelled "shudder".


Sorry, I'm just a homeschool mom quite suprised by some of the generalizations. I'll have to share my own experience: dd #1 is a sophomore in college majoring in pre-med biology with a B average. I know several other homeschooler friends in my area with children the same age; their children also have science and math majors at various colleges including Wheaton, Chapel Hill and Harvard. Many were offered full ride scholarships to several add'l universities based on their SAT scores (and there is one friend of my son's who scored 800 on the math section last year as an 8th grader). They are all doing well in college. Please be careful of generalizations, a math minded person would realize your personal experience is not enough data to be statistically significant, and your "observations" may contain an inherent bias.

 

[DISNEYFOS]

A note to the ivy league-er (under the assumption you're never too old to learn):

"imperitive" should be spelled "imperative"
and "shutter" used in that context should be spelled "shudder".


Sorry, I'm just a homeschool mom quite suprised by some of the generalizations. I'll have to share my own experience: dd #1 is a sophomore in college majoring in pre-med biology with a B average. I know several other homeschooler friends in my area with children the same age; their children also have science and math majors at various colleges including Wheaton, Chapel Hill and Harvard. Many were offered full ride scholarships to several add'l universities based on their SAT scores (and there is one friend of my son's who scored 800 on the math section last year as an 8th grader). They are all doing well in college. Please be careful of generalizations, a math minded person would realize your personal experience is not enough data to be statistically significant, and your "observations" may contain an inherent bias.

And spell checker is not available on a message board. Glad you are here and willing to spend the time to help.

I would love to see some statistics on home-schooling. My sense is that its a relatively new phenomenon and/or we don't have enough data on the qualifications of the teachers. There will be success stories in either arena. Generalizations or not, I would find it very hard to believe that someone who does not have experience with higher level math or science is capable/qualified to teach it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are no mandates on having a teaching degree to homeschool. Unless of course, you supplement with tutors when you reach that level.

* note there may or may not be multiple spelling errors in the above post, read at your own risk.

 

[I_Know_You2!]

LOL, sorry, OP. I just hate broadbrush generalizations. Especially when there isn't evidence to support it. FTR, my kids have attended private and public (not homeschooled), have been accepted into top 25 schools. Every homeschooler I do know, through my work at the college, amongst other venues, appear to do at least as well academically and socially. The positive appears to me to be a bit more independent thinking.

OP, let your kids read what they want, and phooey to anyone who says differently. And back them up. My opinion.

PS...I've got spell check. Is my computer set up differently?

 

[8 Ears]

In some cases certain books are "required reading for grade X". State mandates

 

[Belle & Ariel]

Let me share experiences as a homeschooling mom:

I started working with 8th graders at church when my son was a homeschooled first grader. I felt so sorry as one after another could not read an entire sentence without stumbling over easy words. I went home and my first grader read all the paragraphs correctly without pausing. We lived in an affluent area with the second highest expenditure per student, so the money thing does not fly. It turns out this school district feels they have prepared the kids if they can read and do math on a 3rd grade level when they graduate high school. Yeah, to say, "Do you want fries with that"?!!
My girls both scored well on the ACT--much higher percentiles on language, math and science than public school kids. I say this because if they are in say the 91st percentile, we know that there are far more kids below than above her. Many of these are obviously public school kids. Actually, two years ago our state added restrictions to the state lottery scholarship because a disproportionate amount of homeschoolers were getting the extra money, based on ACT tests.
We have done fine on high school level math and science--my oldest is in her third year of college with a 3.98 gpa. She has taken 2 math and 2 science classes and got A's on all. She took honors comp and got an A there also. The younger one is in her freshman year and doing well.
As far as the socialization, if one is not so closed minded, you would probably not see much difference in socialization. Home schooled kids think for themselves and in many situations are stronger in peer pressure situations because they have been raised with a clear values system. I have worked with youth for 8 years now and can find more than one socially challenged public school kid for the few homeschooled ones. I do not blame the school for this, it is just a biproduct.
I have many friends who are passionate about teaching. They are also very disenchanted and disappointed that they cannot make a change but must teach to the middle and just put in their time. Some joke they are glorified babysitters. They did not start this way and are not lazy; are just held back from reaching their potential and know they are doing the same to the kids they teach. I would not want to go to work every day feeling my boss had doomed me to failure.
I know a principal who cannot correctly use its/it's or there/their/they're and like words. His grammar and spelling are horrible. How much hope can we hold for that entire school? How did he reach that level and was he the best to choose from?
Most sectors in business would not stay open if they failed at the level schools do. Could you imagine a hospital staying open if they failed 70% of their patients? Somehow our schools do and it only seems to be getting worse.
I have heard from many teacher friends that homeschoolers are a threat to public schools because of their success, low cost, and high test scores. We do not want to be a threat. We are just a highly successful alternative.
I would never say that all public teachers are lazy or all kids are stupid. Please give us the same respect.

 

[fortheluvofpooh]

thanks to all who replied. I called the school today and spoke to the guidance counselor first. I explained to her what my son said and she verified the information as to true, they are not allowed to read certain books from the school, even though they have already been read by most of the children in the class. My son is in AR (advanced reading) and has approximately 30 children in his reading class. The teacher is furious and has called for a meeting with the prinicipal. They are banning books such as The adventures of Huck Finn for language content. I don't know about some of you but I read that book in elementary school. While I know there was questionable language in the book, it is the story that I remember not the language.
I have been wanting to HS my children for at least a yr now, but DH is an adamant public school supporter. His entire family attended PS. I dont' have any issues with PS in general, his neices attend PS and are in the gifted programs and they are challenged. Our school is a small school and they do not challenge gifted children. It is a great school for those with academic struggles, we have a wonderful IU program. They are good for children with learning struggles. If I could afford private school I would send my children there, but $10 K a yr x2 right now is 1/2 of our income. Maybe there are scholarships I can look into. (just thought of that ). I am happy that my DH is finally considering HS but it has to be after I fought the battle in the school to help the kids there. I hope this makes sense and isn't too much rambling. Thank you all for your support and listening.
Lori

 

[LadyShea]

There are some whose autodidactic abilities allow them to learn even advanced subjects merely by reading textbooks. Not everyone needs to be taught by a person with an advanced degree in order to learn. Conversely, some will not learn well without such instruction.

Each individual is simply too unique, and there are far too many exceptions, for the generalizations being made in this thread.

Just my opinion.

 

[princessmom29]

I was simply speaking from my experience just as you can only speak to yours. I said that I do not like homeschooling because the roughly 100 homeschool children I have had interaction with have not been on par with the AP students I teach in public high school. That is a fact. They struggle with AP material almost without exception because they do not have a strong foundation in math and science. I went back and looked at last year's scores on the exams an in a class of 12 the 2 previous homeschoolers scored a 2 and everyone else a 3 or 4. I know that is not a large enough sample to be statistically significant, but i would say that this has been the trend for the last 10 or so years. We ge homeschool kids in AP classes year after year who cannot do the work. Agian I can only talk about the children I have personally taught, but this is the trend I am witnessing from the homeschoolers we get who ar put into high scholl in 11th grade in order to get the AP classes here. They do really well in AP english and history. Often outdoing other students, but their math and science skills are weak.

 

[princessmom29]

There are some whose autodidactic abilities allow them to learn even advanced subjects merely by reading textbooks. Not everyone needs to be taught by a person with an advanced degree in order to learn. Conversely, some will not learn well without such instruction.

Each individual is simply too unique, and there are far too many exceptions, for the generalizations being made in this thread.

Just my opinion.

autodidatic learners are VERY rare. I don't know the statistic offhand, but it is certianly less than 0.1%.

 

[princessmom29]

thanks to all who replied. I called the school today and spoke to the guidance counselor first. I explained to her what my son said and she verified the information as to true, they are not allowed to read certain books from the school, even though they have already been read by most of the children in the class. My son is in AR (advanced reading) and has approximately 30 children in his reading class. The teacher is furious and has called for a meeting with the prinicipal. They are banning books such as The adventures of Huck Finn for language content. I don't know about some of you but I read that book in elementary school. While I know there was questionable language in the book, it is the story that I remember not the language.
I have been wanting to HS my children for at least a yr now, but DH is an adamant public school supporter. His entire family attended PS. I dont' have any issues with PS in general, his neices attend PS and are in the gifted programs and they are challenged. Our school is a small school and they do not challenge gifted children. It is a great school for those with academic struggles, we have a wonderful IU program. They are good for children with learning struggles. If I could afford private school I would send my children there, but $10 K a yr x2 right now is 1/2 of our income. Maybe there are scholarships I can look into. (just thought of that ). I am happy that my DH is finally considering HS but it has to be after I fought the battle in the school to help the kids there. I hope this makes sense and isn't too much rambling. Thank you all for your support and listening.
Lori

I can't believe private school costs that much!!! The most expensive school her is only 6k a year and most run between 3k-4k with some being as low as 2k! That is crazy!

 

[I_Know_You2!]

Belle and Ariel, I've many friends and family who teach, also. They live with the frustrations of dealing with the system, also. I've many other friends who taught, and now homeschool. Two teach at the college where I teach. They love working part-time, and the fact that their kids attend free.

 

[miprender]

You can supplement education at home, it's no surprise that schools are teaching to the lowest student instead of individually.

For the record, I went to public schools my whole school career, graduated as valedictorian in a diverse high school in Rhode Island and received generous offers from schools like Brown University, WPI, etc. IMO it doesn't matter if you go to public, private, or homeschooled, it just matters that you have determination and common sense. I don't believe it was difficult to be at grade level, if you showed up and did your homework; I definitely felt that the material could have easily been boosted in the non-AP courses.

diverse than others.

Just a side note, I went to public school in Woon,RI and I always said if you could survive Junior High you could survive anything. My brother related our experience to the show OZ on HBO. That is how bad those three years were.

 

[madmom1030]

OP I am confused as to what you want your children to read. Both my dd read above grade level and I find it a challenge to find books for my 8 year old to read that are not over her head with tween and teenage issues. We don't want her to read about dating and the challenges of middle school. While she is reading at a 5th grade level we don't always encourage her to read those books. She prefers books about girls like her, (babysitter club, judy moody) not fantasy(has no desire to read Harry Potter). My husband and i talked about this last night is she could read at 9th grade level would we want her to read Hemingwayat age 8. I don't think so.

My dd is in the high reading group in her class and they all read the same book. (lower groups read a different book) They discuss it and take a test over it. It would be a lot of work for your teacher to make a lesson plan just for your son.

School is more than just reading level. There are things they learn that we could never teach them at home. Art, music, science, getting along with others, respecting other people who are different, etc.

 

[I_Know_You2!]

Agian I can only talk about the children I have personally taught, but this is the trend I am witnessing from the homeschoolers we get who ar put into high scholl in 11th grade in order to get the AP classes here. They do really well in AP english and history. Often outdoing other students, but their math and science skills are weak.

But your initial derogatory statement re. homeschoolers was that they were brilliant, but unable to keep a job due to poor socialization. I don't see "brilliance" in your above statement.

We have a smaller number of homeschooler by percentage on academic probation than other students. We also have fewer homeschoolers involved with our counseling center and/or referred by RA's and professors.

 

[dis-happy]

I was simply speaking from my experience just as you can only speak to yours. I said that I do not like homeschooling because the roughly 100 homeschool children I have had interaction with have not been on par with the AP students I teach in public high school. That is a fact. They struggle with AP material almost without exception because they do not have a strong foundation in math and science. I went back and looked at last year's scores on the exams an in a class of 12 the 2 previous homeschoolers scored a 2 and everyone else a 3 or 4. I know that is not a large enough sample to be statistically significant, but i would say that this has been the trend for the last 10 or so years. We ge homeschool kids in AP classes year after year who cannot do the work. Agian I can only talk about the children I have personally taught, but this is the trend I am witnessing from the homeschoolers we get who ar put into high scholl in 11th grade in order to get the AP classes here. They do really well in AP english and history. Often outdoing other students, but their math and science skills are weak.

Please give us more facts, I'm very interested to hear them. How many AP classes do you teach each year and in which subject(s)? You mention one class of twelve students from last year. Is that the only AP class you taught in math or science last year? And what about the previous 10 years of teaching AP that you reference? In all those years, how many students have scored a 2 and what percentage of them were homeschooled? Has a homeschooled student ever scored a 3, 4, or 5? How do you know who was homeschooled? If someone were homeschooled from K-8, then came to your high school starting in 9th grade, took your class in 11th grade, would you still know whether or not they were homeschooled? Just wondering how you are compiling your information. Also, how large is your school that only 12 students total took an AP science class last year?

 

[princessmom29]

But your initial derogatory statement re. homeschoolers was that they were brilliant, but unable to keep a job due to poor socialization. I don't see "brilliance" in your above statement.

We have a smaller number of homeschooler by percentage on academic probation than other students. We also have fewer homeschoolers involved with our counseling center and/or referred by RA's and professors.

I never claimed to be brilliant. I simply siad that poorly socialized homeschoolers exist, and in higher numbers than well socalized ones in our high school. Again I am commenting only on what I have seen. It sounds like homeschoolers do a good job in your area. That is not the case for the children I have taught who have come into high school from a homeschool environment. And yes I do know people with genuis iq's who are the product of homeschool environments who cannot hold a job. Perhaps that was an extreme example, but I was being attacked and wanted to make a point.

 

[princessmom29]

Please give us more facts, I'm very interested to hear them. How many AP classes do you teach each year and in which subject(s)? You mention one class of twelve students from last year. Is that the only AP class you taught in math or science last year? And what about the previous 10 years of teaching AP that you reference? In all those years, how many students have scored a 2 and what percentage of them were homeschooled? Has a homeschooled student ever scored a 3, 4, or 5? How do you know who was homeschooled? If someone were homeschooled from K-8, then came to your high school starting in 9th grade, took your class in 11th grade, would you still know whether or not they were homeschooled? Just wondering how you are compiling your information. Also, how large is your school that only 12 students total took an AP science class last year?

That was one ap chemisty class we have 2 chemistry and one physics each year that I teach and another 2 biology that are taught by someone else. The numbers are much larger in english and history. We also have 2 Ap calculus classes each year. We cap AP mat and Science classes the 15 and open new sections when needed. Probably 40-50 students on each grade level are in AP english or history each year. The info from that class was what I could remember exactly. We know about the previous schools of all our students via records transfers, but most of our homeschool students come in for 11 and 12 to get the AP credits. I only know abut english and history score through anecdotal conversations with those teachers about trends in our scores. I would have to look up previous years scores and I am not at school today. I can say however that as a general trend my homeschoolers have scored lower. We had one family where the Dad was a physics professor and those two children got 4's if I remember correctly. I think the largest problem I am seeing is that in general these children's parents never took chemistry or advanced math and they are all trying to learn it together. AP chem studemts are supposed to come to me with one year of chemistry completed. Most of the homeschoolers who did chemistry at home have most of the basic skills, but don't really understand much of the theory behind it. They can work problems just like the examples in the book, but when you change them even a little they are lost. They have a really tough time with essay questions in chemistry also because they do not understand the theory.

 

[LadyShea]

There are factions of homeschoolers who choose to teach some of the sciences differently than PS's do, due to religious beliefs. Here in AL, this may large percentage of homeschoolers. Princessmom's sampling therefore might not be representative of all or most homeschoolers or areas.

I still think you are extrapolating from way too small a sample, princessmom, but I can understand where your observations may have come from in that regard.

Also autodidactism is an ability we all have to some degree or another, you can't place a hard percentage on it. Anyone who has ever researched or studied a subject on their own, without a teacher, and learned something has displayed autodidactic abilities. Some have greater abilities to self teach than others is all.