OTish - VENT

[snarlingcoyote]

FWIW: This is a total vent. I just need to let off a wee bit of steam.

We are taking dear niece and dear nephew to WDW at Mardi Gras. The original deal was that we would also take DB and that we were just providing the room, but at Thanksgiving, DB came to me claiming poverty and said that he would have to take the cost for the trip from the kids' college funds and that he wasn't going on the trip, so I bought the kids' tickets and was sort of waiting to see what we would do about food, but no big if I paid. DH and I used our Christmas money from my parents to pay for the tickets.

Well, every year since DSIL died, DB and the kids have gone to Gatlinburg or similar from the 26th of Dec until the day before school starts. (DSIL died in January.) This year no mention of it was made whatsoever at least to DH and myself. The kids were off FB since Christmas, which was a little weird, but whatever.

Well, my DM, who is somewhat, well. She told me the kids and DB had gone on their annual trip and had a good time. I am sure she kept her mouth shut until they were back to avoid any unpleasantness, but probably didn't agree with it.

Still. You know, if my DB had come to me and said he just couldn't afford the Disney trip AND the post-Christmas trip, but that he just had to do the post Christmas trip, I would've totally gotten it and bought the tickets with my Christmas money. It's only money; family is far, far more important.

But DB came to me with a song and dance about the fact that he was dead broke, had no money, that it would have to come out of the kids' college funds, that the kids weren't getting as much for Christmas this year (totally not true, btw - found that out at Christmas from the dear niece, who got a new laptop) etc. etc. etc. He had them one missed mortgage payment to living in a box under an overpass.

I am ticked. I can pretend I don't know about the annual trip. I can be nice and the next time we're together, sweetly ask DB and the YDRs (Young Dear Relations) how their annual trip went. Or I can be a total cat and sweetly ask my brother "How were the mountains? I gather your financial difficulties weren't as bad as you feared. What did you get with your Christmas money this year? We got the kids Disney Tickets."

Okay, so the third one is totally off the table; I do love my brother and my dear relations, and honestly, I don't give a rat's behind about the money - I would only be saying that to make him squirm. I just care that he was a lying lier who lied to make me feel sorry for him instead of manning up and being honest.

I have tried to see this from his side; I get it. We've given him a lot over the years; I'm the baby sister, it's got to burn a little. I've never made mention of it because, well, he's my DB. I love him. And maybe he felt guilty about taking that trip and asking me to pony up more money for our trip. But then, we sprung this on him back last July - maybe he hadn't planned on the tickets in his yearly budget?

Still. I am still stewing about the fact that I was played good and proper.

I have got to calm down and get over it. I think the second option will be the one I need to go with. Now to get over it and move on. Grrrr.

I think the mantra "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "forgive others as I have forgiven you" will need to be permanantly seared into my brain before I see him again.

 

[bumbershoot]

I'm sorry. Watching people spend money in confusing ways can be confusing. And if they are pleading poverty while buying other things its even harder. We've been on both sides of it so trust me, I know it's weird.

If you would have helped the kids get to Disney anyway, even with a more realistic explanation of his situation, maybe you could talk to him about just being honest. It's got to be far more irritating to find this out than to hear "we want to do x and y can you help with y?" Especially if you would help anyway, he's only hurting his future chances it seems.

 

[DetroitDisney]

Tough love is the best.

You need to let people sink or swim. You do them no favors by supporting the "help me I'm poor" behavior.

 

[QVCshopper]

Who had the idea to go to Disney? Was it your idea that you presented to your brother and he agreed? Because it comes down to this: 1) the annual trip to honor his lost wife is important to him. 2) going to Disney is important to you and not him. Therefore, he will find a way to do his trip, and not so much to do yours. I really think it is as simple as that.

Let it go. I went to Jamaica for my sister's wedding with a 1 and 8 year old, while assisting my elderly, poor health parents. By myself. Believe me when I say it wasn't relaxing or cheap at all... but I went for my sister.

 

[clh2]

Who had the idea to go to Disney? Was it your idea that you presented to your brother and he agreed? Because it comes down to this: 1) the annual trip to honor his lost wife is important to him. 2) going to Disney is important to you and not him. Therefore, he will find a way to do his trip, and not so much to do yours. I really think it is as simple as that.

Let it go.

I agree. Sounds like this family is in a time of transition, and is really trying to gain their equilibrium back in their still-new situation. I would agree that the trip was important to them.

I know you want to vent - and trust me, I've done that plenty on the DISboards. As my husband would tell me, breath in...breath out. Just relax. You can't force what is important to you onto someone else.

 

[smokeyblue]

I'd be mad too. The one thing that I hate more than anything is to be made a fool either by being lied to or not told something I should know.

 

[robinb]

FWIW: This is a total vent. I just need to let off a wee bit of steam.

We are taking dear niece and dear nephew to WDW at Mardi Gras. The original deal was that we would also take DB and that we were just providing the room, but at Thanksgiving, DB came to me claiming poverty and said that he would have to take the cost for the trip from the kids' college funds and that he wasn't going on the trip, so I bought the kids' tickets and was sort of waiting to see what we would do about food, but no big if I paid. DH and I used our Christmas money from my parents to pay for the tickets.

Well, every year since DSIL died, DB and the kids have gone to Gatlinburg or similar from the 26th of Dec until the day before school starts. (DSIL died in January.) This year no mention of it was made whatsoever at least to DH and myself. The kids were off FB since Christmas, which was a little weird, but whatever.

Well, my DM, who is somewhat, well. She told me the kids and DB had gone on their annual trip and had a good time. I am sure she kept her mouth shut until they were back to avoid any unpleasantness, but probably didn't agree with it.

Still. You know, if my DB had come to me and said he just couldn't afford the Disney trip AND the post-Christmas trip, but that he just had to do the post Christmas trip, I would've totally gotten it and bought the tickets with my Christmas money. It's only money; family is far, far more important.

But DB came to me with a song and dance about the fact that he was dead broke, had no money, that it would have to come out of the kids' college funds, that the kids weren't getting as much for Christmas this year (totally not true, btw - found that out at Christmas from the dear niece, who got a new laptop) etc. etc. etc. He had them one missed mortgage payment to living in a box under an overpass.

I am ticked. I can pretend I don't know about the annual trip. I can be nice and the next time we're together, sweetly ask DB and the YDRs (Young Dear Relations) how their annual trip went. Or I can be a total cat and sweetly ask my brother "How were the mountains? I gather your financial difficulties weren't as bad as you feared. What did you get with your Christmas money this year? We got the kids Disney Tickets."

Okay, so the third one is totally off the table; I do love my brother and my dear relations, and honestly, I don't give a rat's behind about the money - I would only be saying that to make him squirm. I just care that he was a lying lier who lied to make me feel sorry for him instead of manning up and being honest.

I have tried to see this from his side; I get it. We've given him a lot over the years; I'm the baby sister, it's got to burn a little. I've never made mention of it because, well, he's my DB. I love him. And maybe he felt guilty about taking that trip and asking me to pony up more money for our trip. But then, we sprung this on him back last July - maybe he hadn't planned on the tickets in his yearly budget?

Still. I am still stewing about the fact that I was played good and proper.

I have got to calm down and get over it. I think the second option will be the one I need to go with. Now to get over it and move on. Grrrr.

I think the mantra "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "forgive others as I have forgiven you" will need to be permanantly seared into my brain before I see him again.

I am sorry that your brother used you like that . I have a relation who is exactly the same: crying "poor" to the rest of the family and asking for handouts for necessities while spending a lot of money on themselves (laptops, game systems, expensive dinners, weekends away). It is frustrating to say the least!

I gather that your DB is NOT going to WDW with you? I guess I would just try to think of the trip as a gift for your niece and nephew and try to leave it at that. People who play other folks for money like that have no guilt complex when it comes to taking that money. They have a way of spinning it where they are entitled and justified. I wouldn't be able to resist letting him know that I knew he went on vacation but I would not make any mention of him paying for the tickets. I would make sure ASAP that you know how much he is contributing for food just so you can plan for it if you'll have to cover that too. You might as well feel you are getting screwed by him all at once if he cries "poor" again.

I think that paying for relative's vacations is in the same category as lending money to them. Don't do it unless you are fine with the way they spend their money. I so know that I would remember this in the future and know that if something comes up related to money he will not hesitate to take advantage of you again.

 

[KathyP]

I know that's frustrating!
I think I would maybe just say, "DB, I am so happy that you've gotten your finances straightened out in time to have the annual trip. I was worried about you after our previous conversation. Glad to know everything turned out okay. What would you like to do about the Disney trip?"
That gives him the option to say if he can or will be helping financially.

 

[JaimeA]

My DB is the same but I have learned that his definition of broke is not the same as mine. He is always crying and the his kids post on FB that they are all out to dinner or going to the movies with the fam. My mother even gave him money once.

I like what the PP said about asking him about the vacation. I know in my family disney doesn't mean what it does to me as it does to them, take the kids if you can. It sounds like they might enjoy hanging with their aunt at this time in their lives.

 

[Judique]

How old are the niece and nephew?

It might be a good idea to postpone that trip with them until he is ready to go.

Then it's all back on him. He'll have to answer to his own kids. (I'm assuming the kids know about the proposed trip.)

It's two years since January 2012. It takes time but lots of people have remarried in two years after a loss such as this.

All this depends on how much YOU want the company of your niece and nephew. If you want them with you he is obviously willing to let you foot the bill.

I wouldn't let this interfere with your relationship. It's a matter of managing your expectations and what is important to both parties. he may not think of it as lying - just as laying it out that a Disney trip is not important to him.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Well first, DSIL died three years ago, and for every year since, they've done their annual post-Christmas trip. The first year was a spur of the moment decision to get away from the house and from memories and after that it was a tradition. I WANT him to go on his annual trip. Last year I One day mailed PARKAS to them all because the weather was so bad at Dollywood and I had parkas to spare from our days living in MA! I was actually feeling kind of upset that he and the kids wouldn't get to go on their annual winter trip. I didn't even bring it up at Christmas because I didn't want to hurt their feelings.

Kids are older teens, one's in college.

I'm fine paying for everything on this trip. I don't really care about that.

It's that he lied to me.

He lied. To me. His sister. The one who has kept every single secret he's ever asked me to keep. The one who has always, always supported his decisions in whatever he has needed to do after the death of DSIL. And he lied to me to use me.

And yeah, I'm sure he's justified it totally to himself. There is probably no point in saying anything at all to him directly. I'll just ask the kids how their trip was and act like I knew all along. My public take on the matter from now on will be that I know how he's a bit of a pessimist about his finances sometimes and figured this must be one of those time from the start, no big deal. I'll find a way to spin it to save face for him, but let him know his word is now a bit doubtful.

Thinking it through, he's not in the best mental place. I don't know everything that's going on in his head these days, but a lot of the results of it aren't good for him or for the kids. Still, I don't think it's intentional. (OTOH, he won't go to therapy or a support group, but that's another kettle of fish.)

Wow. Seeing that in print actually helped, as did clearing up minor points people asked about.

Thanks everyone for giving me the room to vent. I'll smooth the waters. All will be well.

 

[Disbug]

Totally understand your need to vent. It is a shame your brother doesn't feel the same way about you, that you do about him. The fact that his kids were off FB for this period of time and others in the family knew about the mountain trip but kept it on the down low... is evidence of deliberate concealment. If they did not feel some shame or guilt why hide it from you?

It sounds like you have already justified his actions, as well. As long as people keep telling him it is "okay" to lie, cheat, hurt, steal... they have permission for their actions. It sounds like you are very concerned with keeping the family "together"... no matter what. If the money doesn't mean anything, then be prepared to be the payer for everything going forward.

I personally think a quiet conversation with your brother is in order. Explain everything you have said here... How hurt you were by not trusting you with the truth, etc.... This sounds like a situation that could simmer and fester, then come out at a future time with a lot more anger behind it. At the very least you will have trust issues with your brother if you do not have a conversation.

I know I am a stranger to you, but wish you all the best for your family and future trips together. You sound like a very nice sister to have!

 

[robinb]

Well first, DSIL died three years ago, and for every year since, they've done their annual post-Christmas trip. The first year was a spur of the moment decision to get away from the house and from memories and after that it was a tradition. I WANT him to go on his annual trip. Last year I One day mailed PARKAS to them all because the weather was so bad at Dollywood and I had parkas to spare from our days living in MA! I was actually feeling kind of upset that he and the kids wouldn't get to go on their annual winter trip. I didn't even bring it up at Christmas because I didn't want to hurt their feelings.

Kids are older teens, one's in college.

I'm fine paying for everything on this trip. I don't really care about that.

It's that he lied to me.

He lied. To me. His sister. The one who has kept every single secret he's ever asked me to keep. The one who has always, always supported his decisions in whatever he has needed to do after the death of DSIL. And he lied to me to use me.

And yeah, I'm sure he's justified it totally to himself. There is probably no point in saying anything at all to him directly. I'll just ask the kids how their trip was and act like I knew all along. My public take on the matter from now on will be that I know how he's a bit of a pessimist about his finances sometimes and figured this must be one of those time from the start, no big deal. I'll find a way to spin it to save face for him, but let him know his word is now a bit doubtful.

Thinking it through, he's not in the best mental place. I don't know everything that's going on in his head these days, but a lot of the results of it aren't good for him or for the kids. Still, I don't think it's intentional. (OTOH, he won't go to therapy or a support group, but that's another kettle of fish.)

Wow. Seeing that in print actually helped, as did clearing up minor points people asked about.

Thanks everyone for giving me the room to vent. I'll smooth the waters. All will be well.

Hmmm ... now I'm thinking this might be a case of "asking for forgiveness rather than permission.". Were you talking up the trip at Thanksgiving and getting really excited about it? Maybe he knew he could only afford one trip and didn't want to hurt your feelings by telling you his Christmas trip was more important to him than WDW? If that's the case it would make the untruth more of a white lie than a bamboozle.

 

[hereyago]

I would just tell them the trip is off then go anyway. And I would be up front with DB and tell him that you don't appreciate being disrespected and used.

You can feel sympathy/empathy for people, but you don't have to be manipulated in the process.

 

[hereyago]

Hmmm ... now I'm thinking this might be a case of "asking for forgiveness rather than permission.". Were you talking up the trip at Thanksgiving and getting really excited about it? Maybe he knew he could only afford one trip and didn't want to hurt your feelings by telling you his Christmas trip was more important to him than WDW? If that's the case it would make the untruth more of a white lie than a bamboozle.

Ordinarily I would agree with you. But considering he lied about the kids were hardly going to get anything for Christmas, but that was a lie. The fact they "snuck" off and had a trip even getting the grandmother in to keep the secret of the secret trip sorry, but that is a bamboozle.

 

[roadtripper]

Who had the idea to go to Disney? Was it your idea that you presented to your brother and he agreed? Because it comes down to this: 1) the annual trip to honor his lost wife is important to him. 2) going to Disney is important to you and not him. Therefore, he will find a way to do his trip, and not so much to do yours. I really think it is as simple as that.

This. I would never presume to know what it's like to lose a spouse, but I have to imagine that one would go a little crazy. If it truly is not about the money, I would give your bro a pass on this. You love him, and you want them all to come. He might have realized that he would sound like a tool if he told you about the trip, and might have really wanted his kids to get to go to WDW but have not been able to swing it, so he went with his priority trip. Ask yourself if you would have been OK if he told you he couldn't afford it b/c of the other trip. Would you still have bought the tix?

 

[Mad4Dizne]

We had a relation who cried poor so bad I actually was buying her groceries, imagine my surprise when she pulled up in a $30,000. car! Boy did I feel stupid. I know how family can sometimes disappoint you. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[mom to minnie&mickey]

I would just tell them the trip is off then go anyway. And I would be up front with DB and tell him that you don't appreciate being disrespected and used.

You can feel sympathy/empathy for people, but you don't have to be manipulated in the process.

I totally agree with this. I can't begin to understand what losing a spouse could do to someone but to lie to your sister (not to mention one who has been as supportive as you have been) in order to gain financially from her takes a person with very low morals. I think he has come to believe you will not call him out on it because of his loss and so takes advantage of it. Keep the tickets and use them with your dh on a future trip and show him that certain actions have consequences. I can't believe you and your dh so generously gave up your Christmas money for his kids only to realize you were used. What a slap in the face!

 

[Judique]

Kids are older teens, one's in college.

QUOTE]

It's possible that the kids just don't want to go to Disney.
This is the age when mine stopped going.

In any case, I am glad that just getting your hurt into print helped you.

Let it go and move on. I'm sorry this made you feel so bad.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Kids are older teens, one's in college.

QUOTE]

It's possible that the kids just don't want to go to Disney.
This is the age when mine stopped going.

In any case, I am glad that just getting your hurt into print helped you.

Let it go and move on. I'm sorry this made you feel so bad.

Sorry, but oh you don't know the reaction we got when the topic was breeched this summer. Oh yeah, if I'd had a camera, their reactions could've been on one of those Disney commercials.

Pretty sure they want to go. Dear niece even went and got a note from her guidance counselor assuring us that it would be okay if she missed a couple of days of school.