OT- Need advice on trouble at school

[eeyorefan74]

This is really OT, but it's driving me crazy and I feel like I might get some good advice here. Maybe it will be good for me to write it out, too.

My DD is 6 and in kindergarten this year at a private Classical Christian school. They are very structured and rule-oriented and demand a lot from the kids. They wear uniforms, have to be perfectly quiet in the halls, etc. Academically I think it's good for DD (she was an early reader and needs to stay busy/challenged), but I'm starting to wonder if it's a good fit for her personality. She's very inquisitive and talkative, and not at all intimidated by adults (only child), which definitely has its pros and cons.

We started off the year pretty well and were impressed with her teacher but things have started going downhill. Her teacher has a star system, where you have to remove a star if you get in trouble, and only get to pick from the treasure box at the end of the week if you have so many stars left. Most of the stars DD lost early on were for not raising her hand to talk, and a few times the teacher felt like she was talking back or not being respectful.

These things have gotten better, but her teacher really doesn't seem to like her much at this point, and almost seems to be looking for her to do something wrong. She told me before Christmas that DD was overall doing somewhat better with self-control, but she fully expected her to have a bad week after the break. DD actually did great the first couple of days back, but yesterday we got a full page note about how she insisted on making a running commentary on everything all day long, and when she lost a star for talking when she wasn't supposed to, made a scene about not wanting to take it. Her teacher threatened her with the principal's office and she took the star out. I definitely can see her making a scene. That happens here, too, but we stick to our guns and she does what she's told.

When I've been in the classroom for parties or on field trips, she seems to call out DD on things that she might overlook with the other kids, several of whom seem to have their own behavior issues. DD is very tall for her age, older than most of the kids in the class, and reads very well at this point, so she seems older than she is. Maybe this is part of it? It just seems the teacher has made it her mission to teach DD in particular to be respectful and submissive to authority. I know she has to follow the rules, but I also know she's a kindergartener and has the maturity of a kindergartener. Shouldn't they be expected to talk out of turn/forget the rules, etc.?

I really don't want to be one of those parents who questions the teacher when she disciplines my child, but I also don't want DD to be labeled a problem child and grow to hate school. She loves her teacher and the school, and I'd like it to stay that way. Maybe I'm just being too sensitive, but it's really been bothering me. Anyone been through something similar? Do I talk about it with the teacher or just let it go? We take away privileges when she loses a star, but I'm not sure how else to help her remember how she's supposed to behave when I'm not there to see it happen.

 

[livndisney]

This is really OT, but it's driving me crazy and I feel like I might get some good advice here. Maybe it will be good for me to write it out, too.

My DD is 6 and in kindergarten this year at a private Classical Christian school. They are very structured and rule-oriented and demand a lot from the kids. They wear uniforms, have to be perfectly quiet in the halls, etc. Academically I think it's good for DD (she was an early reader and needs to stay busy/challenged), but I'm starting to wonder if it's a good fit for her personality. She's very inquisitive and talkative, and not at all intimidated by adults (only child), which definitely has its pros and cons.

We started off the year pretty well and were impressed with her teacher but things have started going downhill. Her teacher has a star system, where you have to remove a star if you get in trouble, and only get to pick from the treasure box at the end of the week if you have so many stars left. Most of the stars DD lost early on were for not raising her hand to talk, and a few times the teacher felt like she was talking back or not being respectful.

These things have gotten better, but her teacher really doesn't seem to like her much at this point, and almost seems to be looking for her to do something wrong. She told me before Christmas that DD was overall doing somewhat better with self-control, but she fully expected her to have a bad week after the break. DD actually did great the first couple of days back, but yesterday we got a full page note about how she insisted on making a running commentary on everything all day long, and when she lost a star for talking when she wasn't supposed to, made a scene about not wanting to take it. Her teacher threatened her with the principal's office and she took the star out. I definitely can see her making a scene. That happens here, too, but we stick to our guns and she does what she's told.

When I've been in the classroom for parties or on field trips, she seems to call out DD on things that she might overlook with the other kids, several of whom seem to have their own behavior issues. DD is very tall for her age, older than most of the kids in the class, and reads very well at this point, so she seems older than she is. Maybe this is part of it? It just seems the teacher has made it her mission to teach DD in particular to be respectful and submissive to authority. I know she has to follow the rules, but I also know she's a kindergartener and has the maturity of a kindergartener. Shouldn't they be expected to talk out of turn/forget the rules, etc.?

I really don't want to be one of those parents who questions the teacher when she disciplines my child, but I also don't want DD to be labeled a problem child and grow to hate school. She loves her teacher and the school, and I'd like it to stay that way. Maybe I'm just being too sensitive, but it's really been bothering me. Anyone been through something similar? Do I talk about it with the teacher or just let it go? We take away privileges when she loses a star, but I'm not sure how else to help her remember how she's supposed to behave when I'm not there to see it happen.

This sounds very similar to our story. My DD went to a small private Christian school for K. The first part of the year was great. I questioned the teacher on something, she gave me the wrong info, and it went downhill from there. The teacher got on to my DD for EVERYTHING while doing nothing to stop a bully. My DD used to love school and starting crying and not want to go. We finished out the year (I should have pulled her sooner) and I did not send her back. She goes to a different school this year and has a WONDERFUL teacher. She is doing so much better this year. And she is starting to like school again.

The best advice I can give is go with your gut. You SHOULD be able to talk to the teacher without fear.

 

[Mkrop]

I guess I see this a little differently. The teacher needs to be consistent and if you DD is chatty Kathy or likes to interupt then she needs her star taken away. She cant do it one time and not do it the next. The teacher would be sending a mix message.

DS5 is still in preschool (just turned 5) and we get reports of him talking out of turn and being disruptive too. At first I was all upset, and we talked to him about it, then I asked his teachers if the other kids were doing it as well, so then I got angry and thought, well if the other kids are doing it and it is age appropriate then why are you picking on DS5, then the more I thought about it, the more I realized that regardless of what the other kids were doing that this behavior needs to be addressed and curbed. Now the teachers and I are working as a team to improve his behavior.

 

[NicRI]

From what you have described. It's sounds like your daughter may be advanced in the social area... Have you tried talking with her about how she feels about the school/teacher/behavior (good and bad)? Is it bothering her that she's not able to pick from the goodie basket? Does the other student (who she's talking with) get punished as well?

It could be that the teacher has had trouble with an outspoken student in the past... Have you tried to speak with the teacher? It might be that she just doesn't get that you want your child to have her own opinion.

We raise our children to have a strong or stronger voice than we did... sometimes that gets them and us in trouble... And sometimes others don't know how to handle that. I don't think a child should be punished for that... I think we should celebrate it!!!

Good luck!

 

[meandtheguys2]

From what you have described. It's sounds like your daughter may be advanced in the social area...

Part of practicing social skills is learning when it is appropriate to speak, and when it isn't.

 

[AMaloy314]

Boy, this is a tough one.

At first, I was thinking "Poor little kid. She just wants to talk.", but as your post goes on to talk about being defiant to the teacher when told to remove a star, I changed my mind. It is to be expected that a kindergartner is going to talk out of turn. It is to be expected that they will forget to raise their hand or to sit perfectly still. It should also be expected that they shouldn't be disrespectful and that they should follow a directive given specifically to them by the teacher.

Especially in the first year at a very structured school, I would expect a bright child to be singled out by a teacher. The kids that have the most expected of them are going to be the ones that are pushed the most. Think of the behavioral skills in school the same way you would reading skills. You obviously wouldn't want the teacher to hold a child who doesn't know the alphabet to the same standards as your daughter who can read.

I am not making any judgment on you or your parenting (I promise, I'm not!!), but have you said anything, perhaps even inadvertently, to let your daughter know that you don't agree with her teacher's discipline style? If your daughter has picked up that you do not or will not support the teacher, she may think she has free reign to do what she wants in the classroom. Your daughter is obviously very bright, and she surely could follow the rules if she so chose I would think.

I would try asking the teacher what kinds of things that you can do to help with the situation. Perhaps some positive reinforcement at home when she doesn't lose any stars for a day, working up to no lost stars for a week. You might also want to consider letting her know that if she is sent to the Principal's office or is disrespectful to her teacher, there will be negative consequences at home.

Remember that unless you home school, you are always going to have to deal with educators for your child. It is always best to try to see them as a partner if you can.

Just some thoughts.

I hope it works out well for your daughter.

 

[Aneille]

Although kids need to learn to speak when its approrpriate and they need do what they are told, the school to me still seems like its not a good fit for your child.

Obviously the star system isn't really working, maybe you can talk to the teacher about trying a different method with your DD.

Maybe instead of losing stars, she should gain them instead. Its a more positive approach anyway.

I'm not a big fan of the stickers like that in school. Kids don't need anymore evidence of who is doing poorly in school. They already know. I am sure the star chart works, but how well does it work for the kid who all year only gets a few picks out of the treasure chest. How does that kid feel. What if they are really trying but for whatever reason is having a hard time.

Sometimes once kids start seeing themselves as the bad kid they start to believe it. I wouldn't punish at home, I would try to reward her when she does a good job instead. I would talk to her about the bad days. Maybe practice with her at home. Have her be the teacher and you be the student. Haver her try to teach you something and then you can show her hard it is to get a point across if the teacher is sidetracked with too many comments.

If her running commentary is about the subject at hand, then she's excited about school and thats a good thing. She needs to work on some things but like you pointed out she's still a little kid.

I would approach the teacher and see what she has to say.

 

[karensi]

Obviously the star system isn't really working, maybe you can talk to the teacher about trying a different method with your DD.

Maybe instead of losing stars, she should gain them instead. Its a more positive approach anyway.



.

This is exactly what I thought when I read the original post. It seems as if taking the stars away is a negative type of dealing with the problem as oppossed to gaining stars, which is a more positive approach

Just think, what would Nanny Jo do

Karen

 

[SmallWorld71]

This is exactly what I thought when I read the original post. It seems as if taking the stars away is a negative type of dealing with the problem as oppossed to gaining stars, which is a more positive approach

Just think, what would Nanny Jo do

Karen

I agree! If your daughter is having less trouble than other students in the class, she could be seeking any attention she can get from the teacher. Taking away stars is likely reinforcing the negative behavior and isn't a good policy for any of the children.

A couple of other thoughts:
1) I teach 1st grade and very often the kids who act out/ call out are my very bright students. 99% of the time, it is not a behavior plan that helps them, it is more challenging work. When their minds are busy, their behavior improves.

2) Strict isn't necessarily a good thing. A good teacher needs to be consistent but not strict. If you are too strict, the kids don't learn how to control their own behavior and only act the right way when the teacher is there. We see this a lot in my school. There are 5 1st grade teachers and although we are all different, one is very strict. Her class always behaves when she is there. However, the 2nd grade teachers always complain about her students' behavior. Behaving out of fear (such as worrying about a sticker) is a lot different than behaving because it is the right thing to do.

3) Talk to the teacher! Hopefully you can come up with a solution together. If not, maybe this isn't the right place for your daughter. Good luck.

 

[brymolmom]

I'm on the fence on this one. I see that the teacher has to be consistent and maybe she's focusing on her because she sees a lot more potential? Not that I agree - discipline needs to be equal across the board IMO.

As far as the 'positive reinforcement' - I agree in theory this is a nice approach - but depending on class size, I'm guessing it might be close to impossible to achieve in addition to actually getting some learning done in the classroom. Of course, if the class size is very small - that might be possible. No way would I ask the teacher for a 'special' behavior system for my child (nor do I think the teacher should do it) - It sounds to me like your dd is improving....so don't you think you guys should BOTH stick with it? I'm assuming you've been reinforcing the teacher's comments with follow-up at home (ie: you don't get a video on 'bad' days). Or maybe - you can do the POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT at home - on days when she keeps all her stars - she gets her 'reward' at home. Might this work?

You mention that she is taller and older than many other kids...Do you mind me asking if you held her back or if she was just after the cutoff? Just a heads-up to other parents - I agree that a lot of this might be because she's a 6 year old with 6 year old knowledge in a 5 year old classroom with 5 year old lesson plans.....so, definitely something to think about for those who choose to put their children in this situation (not sure if this applies to OP or not).

 

[Aristomommy]

Just throwing my two cents in:

DD9 is a Chatty Kathy. Unfortunately it's hard to change that, and frankly it is something I love about her. As she has gotten older, she does realize when it's appropriate to share something with the class and when it's important to listen. In conversations with her teachers we discovered that DD needed more challenging work to keep talking to a minimum. We also set up a reward system at home that worked really well.

I would suggest speaking with the teacher. Approach it from the "how can we work together" and "what can I do to help the situation" angle and your teacher will know you share the same goal with her. You may find that she isn't as concerned about it or that she may look into the behavior more and change the way she handles the situations. Or you may find out this type of school isn't the best fit for your child. DD was in private school through 1st grade and her teacher was a perfect match.

 

[Tammysue5]

I agree w/the poster that is on the fence. I have ALWAYS stood behind the teacher.... and the kids know that. (Never had a problem...but the kids know) We have 4 kids (1 graduated, 1 Junior/HS, 1 3rd, kindergarden) We have been lucky w/teachers. While I stand behind the teachers, if I felt that a teacher was not "letting up" I might consider changing teachers or schools. You may be the best judget for that. (Good friend had daughter at private school...similar situation that you have. Trasnferred her to public and is now in her third year in public school...loving it. Her other three are still at private)

The other apsect may be that if your daughter is having issues w/talking, talking back, maybe you can work with the teacher as a team. If the daughter knows that while you love her and are proud of her you do expect that she will follow the rules in class. My kids are VERY social... and if a teacher said that she had to remind them not to be talking,,, I would tend to think that was true...... but I really would have a hard time seeing ANY of my kids talking back to the teacher. IN contrast I would probably see my DDs crying that they had gotten in trouble.

The fact that you are showing concern shows you obviously care very much about your daughter and I wish you luck with this situation.

 

[CampbellScot]

My step son is in kindergarten this year too. He's had some trouble "keeping his bee in the hive". (their class behavior plan). The teacher has flat out said that she expects a lot from the kids. It is helping my step son to learn that there is a proper time to talk and a time to be quiet. If he can't follow that, then he will have a consequence. A lot of times kids enter kindergarten being used to getting LOTS of warnings and reminders. They are not trained to "listen the first time" and remember. Behavior plans in kindergarten are often deliberately set up to teach the kids to REMEMBER the rules without endless reminders. Which is appropriate for the age level. They need this training so that they can be successful first graders. Also, Kindergarten is where children learn self control. It is a crucial step in social development and awareness. My step son was not happy to have limits set for him. He is a willful little boy and change is not always easy. But he is growing and adapting every day. He is learning that he is not the center of the universe and he is learning how to get along in a group. Life lessons that every child needs...I know a lot of adults that could use some more kindergarten in terms of social appropriateness!!!

Sometimes it is difficult as parents to see another adult setting limits for our children that we don't necessarily set at home. If your child was upset and/or disrespectful to her teacher b/c she had a consequence, the teacher may feel she needs to really drive that lesson home.

All that being said, if you daughter is feeling fearful as opposed to respectful of her teacher's authority,there is a problem. You know your daughter the best. If she seems depressed or withdrawn, or is fearful of going to school you need to step in.

I am a school psychologist and have sat in on meetings w/ parents and teachers dealing with similar situations. They often end on a good note and things improve. Everyone feels heard and understood. Often the children are leaving out important parts of the story. My advice to you would be to make an appointment with the teacher to talk to her about your concerns. If that doesn't help then you go to the principal with your concerns. The teacher should not be making disparaging remarks about your daughter or "predicting" bad weeks. That is setting your daughter up for failure and it's unfair. I think speaking directly with her about these concerns is a good first step!

Good luck!!!

 

[Rylee]

Hi,

Mother of five, 6, 9 17, 22, 26, and want to share my thoughts...

Was your daughter enrolled in daycare, did she attend pre-school? I am asking because I'm wondering it you can compare her interaction with her current teacher to her interaction with other adults in authority. (It could be a personality conflict.) Also, if so, was she able to understand and accept that different people and places have different rules?

I would stop disciplining her at home, for having her stars taken away, that is her punishment, so she has already been punished. I would reserve additional discipline at home for the "big" things... defiant behavior, being disrespectful, lying, etc. Instead, I would reward positive behavior. I would definitely take the emphasis off the "stars" and put it directly on her actions, complimenting and being very specific about which behaviors are acceptable.

As far as the type of school she is attending, I can and am, only speaking about our local schools... while the private Catholic schools in my area consistently rank high academically, they do not offer a lot in way of special services, neither in special ed or classes for the talented and gifted. It sounds like your daughter may be advanced and needs to be challenged. Perhaps you could ask the teacher for special projects or assignments.

This statement in your post really bothers me -
"but her teacher really doesn't seem to like her much at this point"
and I would definitely speak to her teacher. Your daughter needs to learn to follow the rules... order is essential to having a productive classroom. However, the teacher should be able to convey her expectations, without being judgemental.

 

[Mkrop]

I think sitting down with the teacher is an excellent idea. You probaly cant get her to change her star system, teachers need some method to work with the whole class and cant spend the whole day tailoring behavior plans for each kid. FWIW the star or ticket system seems to work very effectively in my son's class.

I wanted to add that you need to be careful to immediately jump to the conclusion that you need to switch schools, You picked this school for a reason and yes sometime we choose wrong but you cant judge a whole school by one teacher. Sometimes the grass isnt always greener on the other side and the next teacher could be worse about her talking or worse in some other area.

Another way I always look at these things is how is this preparing my kid for the future, will talking out of turn or throwing a tantrum be effective in the business world. I dont think the CEO would be too happy if my kid interuppted a meeting, a director too happy if the actor talked out of turn, the nurse who would not shut up during surgery. I know this is projecting way into the future but I think these lessons are life lessons now and we are laying the foundation, the framework for life. We get "stars" in the work world, we dont always get postive reinforcement etc. I think kids need to learn to cope with the real world. What is that saying, "Everything I learned I learned in Kindergarten"

 

[chrisw127]

When my son was four he was in a preschool class where he had a lot of problems. One day, I went to the school to pick him up early and heard the teacher yelling at him. At the time, I just took him out of the class and didn't say anything. Another time, I went there and caught her punishing him for something another kid did--I saw this with my own eyes! The final straw was when I saw a boy hit him and she saw it too and didn't do anything, but a minute later, she punished him for some trivial thing. I pulled him out that day.

During this time, I kept calling my sister (who is a more experienced mom) and saying the same thing you are, that I don't want to be the problem parent, etc., and she kept telling me that sometimes, teachers and students just clash for whatever reason. She told me to trust my gut. I regret that it took me 6 months to go with what I knew was true: That his teacher wasn't very good and didn't like him.

He's never had a problem in his new school (and he's been there a year). Teachers are people too. Sometimes, it's a personality conflict. Sometimes they aren't very good at their jobs. I think we are trained to think they have the best intentions in mind, but you know, sometimes they don't.

Having said this, I don't want to imply that this is the case with your daughter. Just saying to trust your instincts. I still feel guilty that it took me so long to do so.

 

[eeyorefan74]

Thanks so much for your input everybody. You've given me lots of insight and I have a lot to think about. We have to decide soon whether we're going to reenroll her in this school next year, so I guess this is why I'm so concerned about the situation right now. The more I think about it, the more I feel it probably is not the school overall, but a personality conflict between her and the teacher. I think the teacher may have decided early on that she was going to be a challenge to deal with and made it her mission to break her of her bad habits and teach her to submit to authority. We do appreciate her efforts, and realize that DD has to learn how to behave in a classroom. As someone pointed out, this is true regardless of what the other kids do or don't get in trouble for. It just seems like if she starts to feel singled out or disliked by the teacher, or that her efforts to be good don't matter, things are going to get worse instead of better. Her teacher actually said to me that she didn't want this year to be her against DD. I don't want that either. DD loves learning, and I don't want that to change. I have some questions as to how much she has learned this year that she didn't know already. So, as some of you mentioned, part of the problem may be that she does need more challenges.

We support her using the star system if it works for her class and have not said anything negative about the teacher in front of DD. I just think that positive reinforcement can also be a good thing, and I don't see DD getting much, if any, of that, even on her best behavior days. And from the very beginning, I've wondered how a kid feels if they lose 2 stars on Monday, and have no chance to earn them back and get treasure box on Friday. What is there to work toward? It doesn't seem to bother DD tremendously not to get treasure box anyway. I don't know how it affects the other kids. Anyhow, we have been trying to work with the teacher all along, and as I said, DD loses privileges (TV, Nintendo, etc) for losing a star. Someone pointed out that we should punish for the more severe behaviors, not every time a star is lost, and I think that's a great point. The first thing she says every day when she gets in the car is whether or not she's lost a star. Actually if she lost a star, she doesn't even have to say so. I can tell by looking at her. I don't want her to dread coming home and to feel like any thing good that happened in her day is erased by one negative thing. We have also been doing rewards at home for so many days with good behavior, and that seems to make a difference. As I look back over the year so far, there have been many more good days than bad, but to talk with her teacher, you'd probably think otherwise.

Some of you asked questions, so I'll try and answer a few. We didn't hold DD back, she just barely missed the birthday cutoff, so she turned 6 soon after school started this year. She did go to preschool, and her teachers seemed to have no problem with her. Her teacher last year was very sweet, but very lenient with the kids, so I do think that plays into her taking some time to adjust to new classroom rules. Her class this year only has 12 students- 8 girls and 4 boys, so I don't think it's an issue of the teacher having too many kids to control. All that to say, I've read everything you all have written, and you don't know how much I appreciate it all. DD will get her report card tomorrow. We'll see what her teacher has to say on it, and possibly schedule a conference with her to try and make the next few months in her class positive ones.

 

[KitKate]

I agree with the posters that talk about the importance of positive reinforcement. Lots of kids would not like to lose stars.

My DD's 1st grade teacher had a system of a marble jar. If any child in the class, either as an individual or a small group or whole class did well, the teacher gave a marble or several marbles to that child or children. They all contributed them to the same jar. When the jar was full, (the lid could not go on), the teacher treated them to something they voted on, an indoor picnic, a short movie, an outdoor class etc. It helped the kids work as a team, get rewarded for tangible actions and the teacher was happy teaching motivated kids. The children could see the marbles adding up and worked towards filling it. This also meant that no child was singled out as the misbehaving kid with stars hanging somewhere to lose. Knowing they had added even one marble to the jar gave them pride and a desire to do better.

Another teacher used the red,yellow, green light system and I am glad this more negative sytem was not in place in my DD's room.

Good luck in your discussion with the teacher.