OT - HELP!!! DD big school issue!

[sara74]

Sorry to be OT but I need to vent and get some input from other parents.

DD is 4 and attends daycare/PreK 3 days a week. We love the center, love the program and are usually very happy. THere has been a recurring issue with one child that is a verbal bully and DD keeps having run ins with her. The other little girl, who DD does like to play with and we have socialized with outside of school, has a habit of saying things to DD like "I'm more beautiful than you" or "my hair is nicer/longer/more beautiful than yours" We have been trying to work on solutions for DD ranging from walk away, to tell your teacher, to tell her that saying mean things makes you not beautiful on the inside, etc.

So today I am talking to DD about it and she tells me that she can't tell the teacher because if she does they will cut a hole in her pants. Huh? For her tattle tail to grow through. I told her they wouldn't and she insists that they will and said that they even took out the scissors and held them up to her. ALso that they have told her if she tells the other girl that she won't play with her anymore then they will take away playground time from the whole class.

Now, I don't think my child is completely innocent, but I do feel that she is not instigating this and I am looking for a way for her to deal with this girl. OTOH, I am freaking out at what she has been told by the teachers! Called DH and he is concerned that DD will not trust/be able to go to authority figures if she really needs to (is if someone were to molest her or hurt her) and we are both upset that she has, to a degree, been physically threatened by a teacher. I am trying not to overreact but holding a pair of scissors up to a child in threat is very close to holding up a hand and threatening.

I am calling the director at one. I happen to have a parent teacher conference tomorrow as well, just a regular one. What do I do, what do I say? I will reiterate that until today I have sung the praises of our childcare center, our teachers, etc - even as recently as a current thread on this board! So I am really freaking out!!!

Please help me!

 

[belle&beast]

You are doing the right thing to contact the director. I would definitely bring up your concern that your DD needs to feel like she can approach adults when there is a problem. Maybe the director can sit in on your conference to help explain the importance of the situation. I am a speech therapist and worked in early intervention for 3 years and often visited different day care centers and preschools. While the directors always seemed to be competent, I often ran into teachers that were doing the best that they knew, and were not educated in early childhood. This may or may not be the case for your center, but maybe the teachers need an inservice on how to handle this type of situation.

It is a very difficult situation and I feel for you. I had a similar situation with my DD (being told she was lying when she wasn't) and we had to really step back and weigh the pros and cons of our childcare situation. In the end we decided that the pros far outweigh the cons, so we decided to stay. Fortunately, it was worked through easily and we have had no further problems. Good luck this afternoon!

 

[torinsmom]

As a teacher, I would suggest you meet with the teacher FIRST--that way, you get her side of the story. I have had parents who went to the director about a situation and then when the truth came out, they were truly embarrassed! If you and your daughter have loved this teacher, it may just be a misunderstanding. Remember that you only have one side of the story and it sounds like there are at least three sides.

I can tell you that tattling is a big problem in my class of 3-6 year olds. We discourage tattling unless there is a danger to person or property---we ask the children to try to settle disputes themselves if it is possible. This way, we are freed to actually teach and the children learn to problem solve. Otherwise,we are constantly in the middle of "He said I can't go to his birthday party!" or "She said she doesn't want to play with me!" Now, if there is a recurring problem, like you are speaking about, we sit the kids down and help them work something out, and even involve parents if needed. The teacher may not know how serious this is to your child, especially if your daughter keeps going back to play with the "bully".

I would not have my child play with this other girl if it is a recurring problem. The teacher is probably thinking she should just find others to play with if they are not getting along. I would speak to the teacher about the whole "cutting a hole in your pants for your tattle tail", thing and see what she has to say about that. For an adult, that sounds like a joke, but to a child, it could be scary.

Marsha

 

[KristinU]

Wow, I had to go back and re-read your post because I was thinking that the other child made the scissors remark - but the teacher?!?!?

I guess it would depend on how close I was with the teacher and if it seems out of character or not, and how receptive she seems to me. Torinsmom makes a good point of talking to the teacher first, but I'd go with my gut as to talk to the teacher first or go to the director - or maybe mention it to the teacher and ask to set aside a time to talk with her and the director - like giving a "heads up" that you'd like to get the director involved. I think this is more than a casual conversation at drop-off or pick-up time and that you'll need to set some time aside for discussion anyway, so inviting the director to join in would probably make sense to me.

Good luck, I hope it all works out!

 

[barkley]

the other little girl does'nt sound so much like a bully (we've dealt with some evil preschool bullies) as someone so insecure that she needs to talk her self up to someone who she is getting a reaction out of. i'de just tell dd to steer clear of her or if she insists on playing with her, when she starts talking this way to stop whatever she's doing and say "x when you talk that way you don't need me to play with-you're being your own best friend" and walk away.

def. talk to the director-i could'nt get from the op if the teacher or the kids told her the tattle tail thing. i can't imagine a teacher doing this-but i can imagine a little one (esp one with an older sibling-a major factor in the bullying we've encountered) engaging in this and it needs to be stopped NOW.
i've had to talk to directors on several occasions because sometimes the preschool teachers are a bit too invested in what is going on at home with a particular kid and give them waaaaaaaay to much latitude on in class behaviours. i realize that kids may be going through stuff, but that does'nt mean the rest of the kids have to suffer as a result (and then get called on the carpet when the do the exact same behaviour ). i imagine if there have been problems with tattleing and stuff during recess the teacher may have said something about "well if we can't play nicely together we won't have recess at all"-but honestly, in most states there is a mandate for at least a minimum amount of time kids have to have outside play in a preschool setting so i don't think it's likely to happen.

please let us know what transpires.

 

[sara74]

Hello - OP here! Just spoke to the director.

It WAS the teacher that made the scissors remark, which I knew this morning. The director knew which teacher it was and that it was injest, as I figured, but like others have said, and I have felt, DD doesn't understand that they are just kidding. If someone raised a pair of scissors to me and told me that when I was 4, I would have taken them seriously too!

So the director and I agree that the teacher was kidding but shouldn't have done it that way. Also that, yes, outdor play is mandated and threatening to take it away is not right either. We also agreed that no pair of 4 year olds is equipped to work this problem out on their own. They need an adult ot help them with it and DD is being taught that she can't approach an adult for help in the situation she is in now.

I did express to the director that I don't believe any intentional harm was being done to DD. I also expressed that I understand that the teachers don't need to be caught in tattling all day, but what oterh recourse is there for DD at this point? I have told her to tell X that she is not goingto play with her while she is saying mean things and to walk away, but then she says that X gets upset and the threat comes to end playing if DDis upsetting another child. Then she isn't allowed to say that X was saying what she did because that is tattling! DD is between a rock and a hard place.

Lastly, I told the director that if DD was doing something like this, I would want to hear it. And that I expect that if another child is doing it those parents would want to hear it too. That can't happen if the teachers are discouraging the kids from approaching them.

THe director is going to have the teachers sit the kids down as a group and talk to them about ALWAYS going to teachers/adults when they need help. She asked me to discuss with the teachers tomorrow at the conference what we are going to do with the girls' situation in particular. I am first going to make an excuse to break our playdate for tomorrow. I really like the mom but how can I have DD play with this kid if it is a constant issue? OR, do I keep the playdate and hope that it happens then so that she can see it and we can talk about it together.

I agree that X is insecure. I also think things aren't going to get better when she gets a new sibling this fall. She is an only child and only grandchild and a little baby is going to really rock her world. BUT I also think that bullies are insecure. That's why they bully. And this may be verbal, but it still smells a lot like bullying to me.

Thanks for 'listening' to me. I'll let you know what happens after the conference tomorrow.

 

[nicolemomof4cuties]

I run a daycare out of my home and I would never allow a child to mistreat a friend in that way. Words hurt just as much as being hit IMO. We have a child at our house that also tells everyone that they are ugly and that she is soooo beautiful. If I catch her saying something to that effect (9 times out of 10 I do because I monitor the children very closely) I talk to her about how impolite and hurtful that her comments are and ask her to apologize to the other children. Then we all discuss aboout how everyone is beautiful in some way or another and that everyone has something that they may do better than another person but that friends do not rub it in because other people's feelings are very important and easily injured. I believe that she is insecure and that is the reason for it but I do not find that to be a viable excuse. My son was being bullied at school this year and after talking to the other child's father we found out that the other little boy was simply jealous of my son because he is "very smart and has really cool clothing". Now the two of the are very good friends and do school projects together. I have a feeling that your DD's teacher may not be monitoring the children well enough and that is why these incidenses are occuring. Also, I CANNOT believe that a teacher would tell your daughter that she would cut a hole in her pants if she tattled! That is wrong and teaching children that they can not talk to adults if they have a problem. It is also teaching children that their feelings and thoughts do not matter. Children should never be made to feel this way. Sure, it is irritating when children tattle but if you are watching them carefully in the first place they don not have a reason to tattle because you will have noticed the problem yourself and promptly dealt with it. Children are also less likely to act out if they know that an adult is watching them closely and interacting with them. I would talk to the teacher and voice your concerns with her. I also might be inclined to speak to the other twp childrens parents. Children act differently when they are away from their parents and their parents may feel very blessed that someone is informing them of this embarrassing behavior so that they can handle it at home. I wish you the best and tell your daughter that she is very beautiful-( I saw her smiling face beside your online name.)
Nicole
Wife to Reuben
Mom to
Keitaaron 7
Xeyana 5
Chloe 4
Colin 2

 

[torinsmom]

This is actually very common behavior in 4 year olds. They are still very egocentric, and many do not yet "get" that their words can hurt another child. Maybe you could find some books on teaching young children empathy for the classroom teacher to use to help with this.

I would not allow your child to play with X until/unless there is some change in this behavior. If this continues, your daughter may begin to think that this is how friends are supposed to treat her, and she will come to expect it. We have had some "toxic" relationships in our classroom this year and I and the parents were very careful to make sure these children are separated for next year.


Marsha

 

[gopack]

I bet this "teacher" has no training in early childhood education. It was totally inappropriate for her to joke with your daughter in this manner. Most children this age take things very literally and cannot easily distinguish between fact and fiction. I would be very wary of this situation if it were my child.

 

[torinsmom]

I bet this "teacher" has no training in early childhood education. It was totally inappropriate for her to joke with your daughter in this manner. Most children this age take things very literally and cannot easily distinguish between fact and fiction. I would be very wary of this situation if it were my child.

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion because of one lapse in judgement. Teachers are human and make mistakes, just like everyone else. The difference is we have 20-30 sets of parents that are there to call us on our mistakes. And if you have never been a teacher, you could never understand that there are moments when we are totally overwhelmed. I'm sure in hindsight, the teacher felt terrible and it sounds like she is going to set things straight with the kids.

Imagine if someone assumed that you were a terrible parent because they saw you in your worst parent moment.

Marsha

 

[tatooed goofy]

I agree with torinsmom. We all make mistakes....teachers are no different. We are human and we are carefully watched and listened to. We do need to be careful, very careful. But, we react sometimes just like everyone else. Sometimes we say it in our heads and every so often, we say it out loud. Maybe she was just having a long day (lots of tattling by all the kids). I would give her a break and talk to her about it. She is probably very sorry and sounds like she is trying to make it right. Good luck!!!

 

[disneyjunkie]

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion because of one lapse in judgement. Teachers are human and make mistakes, just like everyone else. The difference is we have 20-30 sets of parents that are there to call us on our mistakes. And if you have never been a teacher, you could never understand that there are moments when we are totally overwhelmed. I'm sure in hindsight, the teacher felt terrible and it sounds like she is going to set things straight with the kids.

Imagine if someone assumed that you were a terrible parent because they saw you in your worst parent moment.

Marsha

 

[sara74]

In order to be a teacher at our center there is a minimum number of early childhood education credits that each teacher needs to have. The center is NAEYC certified (Nat'l Association for the Education of Young Children), which is a voluntary certification that is very strict. So she has a minimum of 4 college courses in early childhood education. NAEYC's new guidelines which are being phased in starting this year are requiring that all head teachers have a minimum of an associates in early childhood. The center our children attend is part of a pilot program for the new evaluation and accreditation of NAEYC centers.

So I don't think it is a matter of her lacking education. Just, as one poster said, maybe having a bad day. I have to agree with torinsmom that her teaching as a whole is not in question but rather the handling of this situation.

My fear, which is one that DH brought up, is that DD can't distinguish between tattling on something insignificant and telling something of import to a teacher, such as inappropriate touching, language or bullying.

Thanks for all the helpful discussion! I really do appreciate it! We have our regular parent/teacher conference tomorrow and I will post more after it!

 

[sara74]

BTW, if any of you saw me in my worst parent moment I'd have to hide in shame! That was a really good way of wording it! It has to be hard to be an educator and held responsible by some many parents and children. Thank you to all the caregivers and educators who are out there!

 

[disneymom3]

.


My fear, which is one that DH brought up, is that DD can't distinguish between tattling on something insignificant and telling something of import to a teacher, such as inappropriate touching, language or bullying.

Just to let you know, we had this issue when DD was in K. Her teacher was on this huge deal about tattling. Well, DD had a boy whom she had befriended who had some behavioral issues. He was a sweet boy overall, but had some inappropriate responses, didn't get boundaries, that type of thing. I think he probably had Asperger's or something similar. At any rate, the teacher sat them together primarily because DD really settled this little friend down and he followed her lead a lot on how to behave. Then all of a sudden he started not acting so nice. She came home crying one day and said she didn't want to sit by X anymore. I asked why not and she said he spit on her everyday and would not stop when she asked him to. I asked if she had told her teacher and she said no because that would be tattling and they got in trouble if they tattled.

I think this is a hard issue for little kids to figure out. We had a talk about that telling something that is causing you to be upset or hurt is not tattling. I think a lot of times teachers use the idea that if it doesn't cause danger then you don't need to tell, but really it is hurting that needs to be told, whether that hurting is feelings or physical. She did eventually figure it out.

You clearly have very good communication with your DD and I am sure you would know if something was going on. It might take a bit for her to tell her teacher, but it def sounds like she would tell you so take comfort in that.

I hope the conference goes well tomorrow.

 

[TinkInPink]

I have a friend who is a teacher and I love what she came up with to deal with her own kids and friends when they are playing at her house or in the yard. She tells them if it isnt one of her "B" s she does not want to hear it and her "B"s are bleeding, barfing, or bathroom! to deal with it themselves. She said she got so tired of all the tattling and trying to referee she came up with this. I can understand the teachers frustration with kids who are tattlers.

 

[sara74]

Ok, so more update...

DH picked up the kids last night since I work late (but I get Thurs and Fridays off ) so he saw the teacher last night. She wasn't the one that made the scissors remark, but she told DH that all the kids were sat down and talked to about being able to go to adults for help when something/someone is bothering them. She also sat three girls down together (DD, X and another girl who plays with them a lot)and talked to them about what being a friend means, that we don't say mean things to our friends and hurt their feelings, etc. DD told me that X was friendlier yesterday 'because she learned her good manners, Mommy'

That makes me feel a little better, since the last several times DD has told me about X picking on her, all she has said is that X 'was cranky today' and I was pretty tired of teachers, and even DD, making excuses for X's behavior!

Since these girls are going to be together for another year in the same classroom (they were moved into PreK 6 months early as they are both precocious and early readers/writers, etc) I really feel like they are going to have to get along at least a little better than they have been. It's like a love/hate thing. They are so close sometimes that they fight like sisters!

The other thing that the teacher told DH is that DD is hesitant to approach the teachers about many things. She said this too him sort of defensively. And this is something that she has said to me before. Well, if she's being told the scissors thing, I don't blame her! She really believed it! So that will be coming up today as well...

THanks for sticking by me, can't talk to the neighbor about this without a lecture about quitting my job, can't bring the grandparents into it because they will just flip out...anyway, thank you!

 

[sara74]

I have a friend who is a teacher and I love what she came up with to deal with her own kids and friends when they are playing at her house or in the yard. She tells them if it isnt one of her "B" s she does not want to hear it and her "B"s are bleeding, barfing, or bathroom! to deal with it themselves. She said she got so tired of all the tattling and trying to referee she came up with this. I can understand the teachers frustration with kids who are tattlers.

School age kids, sure, fine. But these are 4 year olds. There are things they can't work out on their own. They still need an adult to help them learn HOW. If my child is not to approach a teacher all day unless it is for one of your friends three B's then I don't think she's getting very much guidance!

As the teacher told DH yesterday, my DD is hesitant to approach the teachers with problems at all, I hardly think that constitutes a tattler! If she's hesitant to approach them, maybe it has something with them not making an open atmosphere for the kids. And if they are frustrated by hearing about a kid who is picking on another kid, maybe they should deal with the instigator, rather than the recipients of the behavior!

 

[torinsmom]

I thought you said the teacher made the tattle tail comment? Didn't you just say she didn't? Or are there two teachers and one made the comment?


So are you happy with the classroom overall or not? It sounds now like you might think it is a bad environment. If that is the case, I would not have my child there. We have children that don't come to us even when it IS an emergency. Some kids are just more wary of authority figures. I would definitely do role-playing with your child about approaching teachers, policemen, etc if she is in trouble or needs help. She may do it at home, but some children need a little more coaxing to do this with people she is not as intimate with.

I am a Montessori teacher; I have a 4 year degree, NC teacher licensure and Montessori Certification. I have been teaching for 7 years, and a nanny for 9 years before that. Does that mean I don't make mistakes in the classroom? Of course not! We have our bad days, and no matter how educated or professional we are, sometimes we mess up.

Montessori stresses independence. You would be surprised how many 3 and 4 year olds can problem solve. We begin by bringing the two kids with a dispute together and helping them use their words to tell the other how they feel and then we talk with them about what would have been a better way to resolve the situation. It is a great skill to teach the children. After they have done this a few times, we will stand closeby while the kids work things out themselves and step in if need be. Often, we will see older kids from the classroom helping the younger ones work their problem out. If they can't work it out, they come to us, and we help them.

Sounds like the teacher needs to discuss with the children what is considered tattling. If someone is hurt, whether physically or emotionally, we need to deal with that. Of course, if the same child keeps hurting another's feelings and then the second child keeps going back for more, I am going to suggest that they find another playmate or stop reporting the other child to me. Will I talk with the other child about hurtful words? Yes, but that doesn't mean she will stop. Now, if it was a child threatening to hurt someone or calling the child a name, I would sit that child in time out. But saying I'm more beautiful is not really a threat, KWIM?

Could you observe the classroom? Or volunteer one day? If you don't think it is a good environment, you need to see a regular day in progress for yourself to be sure.

Marsha

 

[matthew&haleysmom]

As the teacher told DH yesterday, my DD is hesitant to approach the teachers with problems at all, I hardly think that constitutes a tattler! If she's hesitant to approach them, maybe it has something with them not making an open atmosphere for the kids. And if they are frustrated by hearing about a kid who is picking on another kid, maybe they should deal with the instigator, rather than the recipients of the behavior!

My DD just finished kindergarten this year and this sounds just like her. A boy spit in her food at lunch and she wouldn't tell anyone. She did not want to tatle tell.

Best of luck with your DD.