OT-Discipline for 4 year old

[princesspiglet]

I am at a loss on how to handle my daughter and am looking for some advice. She will be 4 in November and for the past 7 months has been having episodes of downright defiance, tantrums, yelling, pushing me, slamming doors in my face, telling me to go away, etc. I did not have to deal with the terrible twos- she was an angel- so I am being punished doubly for that now!

I feel I have tried every option I can think of: time outs, taking away privileges, etc. Out of desperation this morning, I spanked her once, and I have felt horrible about it all day. We were running late and I was not feeling good and I gave her 3 warnings that we had to leave to go to school. A 15 min warning a 5 min warning and then a 2 minute warning. She was fine up until I said, "Ok, time's up,let's go have a fun day at school" All of a sudden, she turned into a devil child and went ballistic- kicking and screaming her little head off. this went on for well over 15 mins. At first I just let her go, thinking she would calm down, then out of anger, I picked her up and swat her bottom. Not enough to hurt, but just to get her attention. She looked up at me with pure terror and kept screaming. I then set her back down and walked away and told her when she calmed down, we would talk about the spanking. Well, it took another 20 mins for her to calm down. By this time, I am already 40 mins late for work. This was the 3rd time this week it has happened and I am at the end of my rope. Her teachers say she has a wonderful time at school and when i pick her up she tells me all about the fun she had that day, so I don't think it is school. I am just not sure how to handle her. I don't want to ever spank again, but my other options do not seem to be working either. Any one have any suggestions or been down this road before and can help me out? Sorry so long. Thanks forthe help!

 

[alloyd1170]

Welcome to life after the terrible twos. Whoever said that must not have had a 3 or 4 yr old!

Ive heard that girls get "better" around 4-a year earlier than boys. I have a 4.5 yr old son that drives me so crazy that I wish preschool were longer than 3 hours! I too have tried everything-taken away tv, toys, computer time, etc and nothing works. As soon as he is partially in the car after preschool he starts in on me-I wanna go somewhere to play. Sorry not today. You hate me or I hate you, you never do this, .....sometimes he hits me, his sister (14 mos old), or just slams himself against his carseat. He used to be an angel wherever we went. Getting him to eat dinner is a screaming battle. In our case, I know there is some jealously with him not being an only child anymore. Its also the age when kids are testing out their independence and voice. I am really dreading the teenage years! I pray my DD wont go down the same path, but she is already picking up on things DS does and imitates him at 14 mos!

So I too am interested in what others have done. How do you get your kids to pick up their toys and put them away without a fight, how do you get them to eat, etc?

alison

 

[scouthawkk]

WOW!!!! I have to be honest, I am so glad to hear that I am not alone in this. Well, I already knew I wasn't, but it sure feels like it!!!!! My DS just turned 4 (on 9/12). Kicking, pushing, screaming, scratching, hitting, punching, pinching, gouging with nails, slamming doors...I think the only thing he hasn't done to me in the last 6 months is bite! He even threw an hour and a half long tantrum at MGM on the 31st last month because I wouldn't buy him one of those toy guns they have in the gift shop on the way out of Star Tours! That one seemed the worst...that was the first time he told me he hated me and that he didn't love me anymore...but I held strong!

We, too, have tried everything we can think of. Time outs, taking away privileges (computer, tv, toys, story time...desserts)...we have even resorted to spankings. He laughs when he gets spanked, and tells us it doesn't hurt, then proceeds to stick his tongue out at us.

I talked to his doctor about the tantrums. He said they can sometimes be as bad as seeming like he is having a seizure! His best advice was to try to make sure he is safe and not in a position to harm himself or anyone else, and then try to ignore the tantrum. Much easier said then done, but it does seem to shorten the duration of it...what kid likes to be ignored?! It kind of works, and we can even tell when he is at a turning point in his screaming that he seems like he wants to calm down and get under control, but just can't quite get there. That's when we step back in.

At that point we have him take deep breaths and count slowly. 1-10 just doesn't cut it for him anymore, so it is usually to at least 30...then more deep breaths. Then we do the big hugs. Once he seems calm enough, we try to talk through what he was feeling, what we were feeling, and what we can do in the future to avoid the problem. Not to say he doesn't fly off the handle on the same issue again, because he does, but the length between tantrums seems to be getting longer. Now if he starts not listening, and seems as if he is going to get going real good, I just tell him that until he is ready to discuss things calmly and like a big boy, that I am not going to listen to him any more. Usually within a couple of minutes he'll stop and tell me "ok mommy, I'm ready to listen now."

Another thing that seems to work about 65% of the time these days, is to have him help in the decision making process when things concern him. Every morning he gets to pick what he wants to wear (I lay out a couple of choices, he picks). He also gets to pick things like what he eats (he has to try a bite or two of what we are eating. I don't expect him to like everything, but if he does, he picks what we are eating. If he doesn't, he gets to pick something else. But he does have to eat some veggies every night, and have milk with dinner). As well as what the family activity will be every night. But he only gets to make those decisions if he has been good for most, if not all of the day. We tell him that he needs to "choose to be good" if he expects to get to make any other choices for what he wants. If he chooses to be bad, he knows he has to wear what we tell him, eat what we put in front of him, and there is no family time after dinner. Straight to bed! That seems to get his attention because he likes to be in control...or at least to think he is in control of what he gets to do.

We also do not watch tv during the week anymore while he is still up. He gets so absorbed into that stupid thing, that no matter how many warnings that at the end of the show, or in x number of minutes it is time to go to bed...or whatever, he gets very angry when it is time to turn it off...even if his show/movie is over. So Friday and Saturday nights is the only time we watch tv/movies with him.

As far as getting him to pick up his toys, we try to get him to put stuff away before he gets something new out...of course, his way of putting things away is to toss them into his play room, so that place is a disaster! We sometimes threaten to throw toys away if he doesn't pick them up. DH did one time actually get a garbage bag and put toys in it. Didn't actually throw them away, but it made the point! Now he jumps when we threaten that, because he knows we mean business.

With all of those steps in place now, he goes in waves...which is better then all bad all the time. We'll have what we call "good days" for a couple of days in a row. Then there will be a bunch of days where NOTHING seems to work...then all of a sudden, boom, back to mr. good boy. Unfortunately there isn't any real pattern to it either, otherwise I could be prepared...

Every now and then when he is being good people say how cute he is, and how well behaved he is. Little to they know!!!!!!!!

 

[kidshop]

My ds is almost 4 (in Oct), and honestly this is my favorite age! I don't have any specific tips, but I have always meant what I have said, whether good or bad and I find that curtails a lot of the bad behavior. If the acting out never works, they drop it pretty quick! Other than that, I make sure he gets enough sleep, eats and snacks regularly through the day on healthy foods, and drinks a lot of water (it's still hot here). His tv time is limited and we only watch appropriate shows (nothing violent or aggressive, mostly videos).

About eating, I never make it a battle. I will ask him to take one bite of something, if he doesn't like it, fine, he doesn't have to eat it. If he doesn't want to eat anything at all, that is fine too, there is always the next meal or snack. I do not make special meals for him, although I will include one or two foods I know he likes. My kids were never very picky so they eat a wide variety anyway. No kid will starve themselves.

If he were screaming when I had to leave, I would just pick him up and put him in the carseat and go on my way. I'm in charge and we are going to school!

I help pick up toys at this age. We clean up together and I show them how to put stuff away and where to put it. I also only allow one big toy or one with a million pieces out at a time. Before we can get one out, we put one away.

HTH.

 

[First timer]

I am at a loss on how to handle my daughter and am looking for some advice. She will be 4 in November and for the past 7 months has been having episodes of downright defiance, tantrums, yelling, pushing me, slamming doors in my face, telling me to go away, etc. I did not have to deal with the terrible twos- she was an angel- so I am being punished doubly for that now!

I feel I have tried every option I can think of: time outs, taking away privileges, etc. Out of desperation this morning, I spanked her once, and I have felt horrible about it all day. We were running late and I was not feeling good and I gave her 3 warnings that we had to leave to go to school. A 15 min warning a 5 min warning and then a 2 minute warning. She was fine up until I said, "Ok, time's up,let's go have a fun day at school" All of a sudden, she turned into a devil child and went ballistic- kicking and screaming her little head off. this went on for well over 15 mins. At first I just let her go, thinking she would calm down, then out of anger, I picked her up and swat her bottom. Not enough to hurt, but just to get her attention. She looked up at me with pure terror and kept screaming. I then set her back down and walked away and told her when she calmed down, we would talk about the spanking. Well, it took another 20 mins for her to calm down. By this time, I am already 40 mins late for work. This was the 3rd time this week it has happened and I am at the end of my rope. Her teachers say she has a wonderful time at school and when i pick her up she tells me all about the fun she had that day, so I don't think it is school. I am just not sure how to handle her. I don't want to ever spank again, but my other options do not seem to be working either. Any one have any suggestions or been down this road before and can help me out? Sorry so long. Thanks forthe help!

Did she just start school? Is it a new experience for her?

 

[java]

Oh no that doesn't fly at our house. I have 4 children and I don't have time for that. My almost 3 has moments of meltdown. I generally realize that he is either tired or hungry to get that way. We work on using our words not screaming. Now don't get me wrong- he can flip out still- but they are few and far between. He understands that mommy doesn't have money for a car everytime we go to the store. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. I tell him before hand if we will or will not be getting him anything- To get that out of the way. Thankfully my 2 oldest got this quickly and he is getting as well- I also try to encourage good behaviour- Like everytime you do get ready on time we can watch your video in the car. Or something similar(bribe maybe but it works.) And if all else fails hang in there and know that most things are just a phase......

 

[princesspiglet]

No, she has been in school/daycare (same one) for the past 2 years and has been way ahead of everyone in her class with reading, math, etc. She could care less about it now when in the past she loved reading and doing puzzles and learning everything she could. She was always very curious and asked alot of questions. Now, she has that nonchalant attitude like a teenager and will even roll her eyes at me and look sarcastic!

 

[RN01]

Watch the video- 1,2,3 Magic. I really helped me when my kids were that age. In fact, I probably need to watch it again to refresh.

 

[DestinationDisney]

Although I don't have children of my own...my boyfriend is a kindergarten teacher and I seemed to have picked up some things from him. It sounds to me like your daughter may be too "smart" for her current school / class. Maybe she needs more advanced work that will make her want to learn. Its hard to keep kids motivated when they've already mastered something and they have nothing to move on to...maybe her tantrums are signs of her being frustrated with this?

 

[newtowdw1]

Hi!
I have a tantrumer too. He'll be 6 in October. We no longer put him in timeout for tantrums. Instead, his favorite stuffed animal goes into timeout. Timeout is Mama's bed. If he has no more tantrums, he can have Kitty at naptime. If he does, Kitty stays in timeout until bedtime.

Using this technique with my two, they've never had more than 2 in a day. For hitting and being mean, we impounded toys. He'd lose a Rescue Hero everytime he hit his sister. Also, at our house, if you're mean you clean. They scrub the bathtub 20 minutes for the first time. Then the sink (20 minutes). Then the toilet (20 minutes). Then the floor (20 minutes). We've never gone past the sink in one day. This includes verbal meanness too.

Try a responsibility chart too. A simple one you can check off every night about their behavior and attitude. Make the rewards free, but cool (game night, extra story).

We also have fewer choices; they don't get to make decisions constantly. For three weeks Connor was not allowed to choose so much as his underwear because he would not wear what I needed him to. This morning he would not get dressed on time, so I dressed him in what came to hand. No, he didn't have his Power Ranger underwear, Lightning McQueen shirt and sneakers. Tough. You didn't meet your responsibilities, you can't make big boy decisions.

It's not easy, but you need to be firm and consistent. As you know!

 

[emma'smom]

Watch the video- 1,2,3 Magic. I really helped me when my kids were that age. In fact, I probably need to watch it again to refresh.

This is worth watching...or reading the book. I won't say it is the ultimate solution, but it has sound ideas. Now I just start counting and USUALLY my dd4 will respond positively. She does have her moments though...

but it is the 19 month old who is my real issue!

 

[ThreeMusketeers]

My 4.5 year old has recently turned 16 as well. ( in her own mind anyway.) She is getting quite the little attitude and is slamming doors and rolling her eyes. Honestly. We ignored it and she stopped. If she was ever way out of line..such as disrespecting our things or us personally we gave her a time out. But I really felt that all the other stuff was testing our boundries. She got bored with it when we didn't respond and she quit.
We have always taken the approach that if we don't yell..she dosen't yell back. We don't spank, she doesn't hit. It's worked pretty well so far. Get down to her level and talk with her. Respect her as you would want to be respected. She is still learning how life goes. She's only been around 4 years. IMO

 

[Mouse House Mama]

That's a rough way to start your day. I'm so sorry. My oldest is 4. He's pretty easy going so we don't have much tantruming. The only thing I can suggest is - do you have a routine in the morning? Last year my mornings were much more crazy getting ready for school. I felt like I never had it together and of course the kids pick up on that. This year I lay out all the clothes the night before, set the breakfast table, get the backpack ready etc. Then I wake them up at the same time every day (actually they get up themselves up at the crack of dawn! ) We have a morning routine and they know what comes next. I make sure to leave them enough time in the morning to relax before getting dressed and having breakfast. It sounds to me like you are doing the right things. I am a counter (1,2,3 you are on trouble now! ) I usually only get to 2 if anyone is acting up. If I do have to get to 3 then I either send them to their room (away from all the fun- also lets me collect myself for a minute) or make them stand in the corner for a minute. I know this is a hard stage to go through. Hang in there. You are doing a great job. It will get better, just hold strong.

 

[llqool]

i agree that toddlers/young children are testing their boundaries. unfortunately, while they're doing that, they're pushing your buttons b/c they instinctively know exactly how to do it. my older daughter just turned 4 a few days ago, and she has done many of the things mentioned here. what I have found helps *some* is to give her a routine to stick to. NOt just for getting ready for school, but everything. We recently switched to using tickets (the small numbered kind that you are given for a raffle) as a tool to kind of "even out" her behavior. It was suggested to me by a friend who has 4 children, 1 of them autistic and another with learning disabilities. She told me her autistic son's therapist had insisted she do this.

We give my daughter tickets when she does the things that she is supposed to be doing -- cleaning up her toys, getting ready for school in the morning, going to bed "nicely" (not getting up a thousand times to ask me to cover her, ask for a drink, ask for a snack, etc etc -- that was a big problem for us previously), sharing with her sister, and so on. Then she has to use those tickets to "pay" for things like tv time, movie rentals, extra changes of clothing (previously she would literally change her entire outfit about 5 times a day and would get all five outfits dirty!). Twenty tickets gets her a little prize. SHe also gets docked tickets for bad behavior.

we are still ironing out the kinks in this system. but we have been using it for a couple of months now and it has seemed to help some. Now she will automatically do lots of things that we previously had fights over. SHe watches a lot less TV (not that she ever watched very much, but now we sometimes go a couple of days without her watching it). I think it is also teaching her the value of saving for things. At first i thought she would not be able to get the concept of saving up for something and would just blow all her tickets as she got them, but she has been able to get two prizes so far.

she still has some tantrums, especially when she's tired. Since she won't nap, there's no way around her acting up late in the day except to try and imprint the routine on her so it's automatic. her behavior is not perfect (of course), but it's better!

 

[KerriSue]

No to sound mean but this thread has me laughing at your pain. Last night we watched Bill Cosby Himself and all I can think about was when he said "Let the beating commence."

My children are now 11 and 9 and I remember those horrible tantrums. The ones when the body looses all feeling, they become limp and have no bones. Dont you just love kids. I know that walking away and staying calm only work so long. When the sounds of them screaming grate at your soul Just try to stay calm and be consistant. I cant really give you any advice since my oldest is a preteen and Im in for a whole new set of tantrums. Just know that you are not alone.

Group hugs to you and best of luck.

Kerri

 

[LuvOrlando]

I know that this is off the beaten path but I would want to make sure she is as safe & happy as you think she is...I would try and see if there is a way to open up a different type of communication with DD. When things are calm I would ask her about her friends, who plays with who, who is mean, who she likes or dislikes, what she thinks about the adults in her life ect.. In my home we usually do this either 1st thing in the AM or when we say our prayers at night and you wouldn't believe the things I have learned through creating this safe private Mommy & ME time with both of my kids. It may take months before the pattern changes but with patience she will eventually trust you with EVERYTHING that upsets her. When the relationship shifts to a trusting one you will be able to get to the bottom of what is really troubling her and more importantly, be able to help her solve the problem as a team.

I wish you and your girl good luck.

 

[golden1]

My dd went through a demon child stage at age 3.5. By the time she was 4, she matured out of it. There were a lot of embarassing moments, I can tell you! For her, it was all about control. As her abilities grew, she wanted more control of hr environment. She had to learn what she had control over and what she didn't.

My dd would refuse to get dressed in the morning for preschool. I tried forcebly putting clothes on her but she just ripped them off. So I said, fine. I picked her up, put a coat on her and drove her to school naked, warning her that if she didn't put her clothes on, she would have to go inside her school naked. Guess what? She ALWAYS decided to put her clothes on before she went into school. It was all about natural consequences. She had no choice about going to school, but she did have a choice about whether to wear clothes. It actually took about 3 or 4 times doing this before the behavior stopped.

Does she receive more attention for having a tantrum than for being good? I always try to reward/praise my kids when they behave well and that goes a long way towards decreasing bad behavior.

Good luck! It is a tough age and I am already dreading it when my 2 year old reaches that age!

 

[belle&beast]

My DD is now 5, but I can relate to everything you are going through with her. We used a positive behavior plan similar to the tickets someone else posted. I went to the dollar store and bought a bag of marbles and a small fishbowl. Every time she does what she is supposed to do I gave her a marble in the jar. And I mean EVERY time! You have to catch her being good. Then when she misbehaves or doesn't listen, I take a marble away. It only took a few times of losing all her marbles and she understood that she needed to stop the tantrum or do what is asked. As difficult as it is, I stay calm and just say, "You have a choice. You can either pick up the blocks, or you can lose a marble." Usually the toys are picked up immediately, but of course she will test me, then I take a marble. At this point I do not give reward for a certain number of marbles, thay are the reward in themselves. But I have a friend that lets the child with the highest number of marbles in the jar choose the menu for dinner and their Sunday family activity.

I am also big on giving a choice. Kids need to know there is a consequence to their behavior and by giving them choices, they have some control over the situation. Sometimes DD will choose to go sit in her bed until she can calm down, and that's OK with me.

When there is a tantrum with either child (I have a 2 yo DS, too) I DO NOT give more attention. I usually remove the child to the bedroom and let them have ot in there, or I go into a different room. When they realize they are no longer getting anything out of the tantrum, they stop. And honestly, we rarely have any tantrums anymore.

Good luck- I hope you find something that can help you!

 

[WantToGoNow]

My son is 5 and still throws the occassional scream, yell, kick and scratch tantrum. We had one just this week on Tuesday -- he ended up not going to school (Kindergarten). It all started with the TV and the TV no longer gets turning on in the am and then it's off again before he gets home - it stays off until after he goes to bed.

On Tuesday just as he needed to go out the door to the bus (8:30) what comes on but his favorite show -- Mickey Mouse Clubhouse. It used to not come on to later but apparently they made a program change this week. He wasn't happy with taping it for later -- he wanted to watch it now. My older dd called me (I was on my way to work) and said that he was going to miss the bus. She tried everything to calm him and get him out the door. After he missed the bus, she tried taking him to school -- he wouldn't get in his booster and she rode to the school with him unbuckled -- then he wouldn't get out of the car. The entire time, he's still screaming like he's being murdered. My dh came back home and tried taking him to school -- same thing. He only goes to school until noon so at 10:30 I told them to keep him home. He pretty much was in his room all afternoon until I got home. This morning was the first time he got to watch Mickey Mouse Clubhouse since. I will be keeping the TV off during the week -- it really helps and they both play in the afternoon instead of vegging in front of the TV.

We do utilize spankings in our house but I have learned that when he's having a tantrum, a spanking won't do anything but make it worse so I don't even go that route once he's started.

Good luck with your dd and hopefully they all grow through this stage quickly.

 

[karliebug]

I suggest picking your battles carefully. Is it worth it too fight and argure with a child over what they want to wear to school? Who really cares if it matches? Save your battles for safety issues like running out into the street. Also, catch them being good and reward good behavior. Praise them when they are acting appropriately. Let your child have choices when possible-would you like waffles or cereal? The blue pants or red ones? Then your child feels as if they have control plus you have selected options that are acceptable. This too will pass. Now I'm dealing with a teen learning to drive!