Opec

[LuvOrlando]

From Breitbart.com

"OPEC cannot be expected to bail out the world over the current global financial crisis, the secretary general of the oil producers' cartel said on Tuesday.

The United States must take the lead in resolving the crisis, which stemmed from a US-based credit crunch last year, said Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) Secretary General Abdalla Salem El-Badri.

"What is surprising me is everybody looking at OPEC to bail out this crisis. In OPEC, we are most of us very poor countries, we cannot bail out this crisis," he told an industry conference in London.

"This crisis created in the States must be solved within the States, they are capable of doing it," he added at the Oil and Money conference held in a London hotel.

Last week, OPEC ministers agreed to slash oil output by 1.5 million barrels a day in a bid to shore up crude prices which have plunged from highs of around 150 dollars a barrel to below 60 dollars.

The White House denounced OPEC's decision, made at an emergency meeting in Vienna on Friday, as "anti-market," while British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said he was "disappointed."

Rich oil-consuming countries are struggling to deal with a global economic slowdown, and falling oil prices have provided one reason for relief amid the overwhelming gloom."


Anyone who does not recognize OPEC's behavior as an act of war needs to take off those rosy glasses they've been wearing. I remember when the war started, people carrying on that these wars with the middle east were ONLY over oil as contempt dripped from their lips. All along I tried to point out that, like it or not, our entire lives are dependent on oil so yes, it is worth fighting over. We need it to get to & from work, to get our food to us, to heat our homes and generally to power our lives but everyone I spoke to refused to see this reality... it is an inconvenient truth(to borrow a phrase). Then as prices rose and people started to have trouble affording to go to work i noticed the anti war sentiment waning. As prices for gas pushed up prices for food and travel, and clothing as part of the ripple effect I heard fewer & fewer voices. Once people started to lose jobs and started pulling out of their investments for emergency relief (which caused a crash in the pyramid scheme that is Wall street) and started losing their homes without anyone behind them to buy them up on top of not being able to feed their families I noticed the deafening silence from the politicians.

So now what do we do?

Many many many of the world's greatest cultures and political powers have been destroyed due to economic factors, to see it all you have to do is open a history book & its all there. I'm concerned that this is no bump in the road because the crisis' we are seeing are the indirect effects of deliberate measures.

BTW, this isn't a partisan thing since I happen to know as many Democrats out of work and worried as Republicans. This has zero to do with the presidential elections since the problem is due to outside forces so I'd really like the elections to stay off the table. The arguing is divisive and clouds our collective ability to think. I'd just like to know how other people think this can be solved since OPEC is not even pretending to have our interests in mind.

 

[Colleen27]

I don't think that enough people are aware enough of the issue to make any real change yet. The critical mass just isn't there, and lower oil prices just slow progress even further because people become complacent.

The only real answer in the short term is for people to become wiser consumers and realize that oil dependence is not just a question of miles driven. How many miles does your food travel from farm to table? What petroleum-based products were involved in producing that food? How about other consumer goods - how much oil is involved in transporting those products from around the globe so that American consumers can save a few buck? I'm involved in a community agriculture group that tries to promote locally produced goods (mainly food, but the guiding principle is "buy local" so it does sometimes extend beyond that), and I know from experience that most people aren't thinking about these things when they're at the grocery store buying Chilean grapes and South African citrus and Brazilian bananas. Yes, cutting down on miles driven and moving to more fuel-efficient vehicles makes a difference, but it is only a drop in the bucket.

In the long run, we need to revive the kind of old-fashioned American ingenuity that got us mass produced cars and incandescent lightbulbs and personal computers and develop practical alternatives to oil. We also need to move back towards a producing, self-sufficient economy (which is not to say we should withdraw and become economic hermits); we need to be able to produce the essentials domestically, so that our basic security is not dependant upon the good will of foreign nations and organizations like OPEC.

 

[eliza61]

I don't think that enough people are aware enough of the issue to make any real change yet. The critical mass just isn't there, and lower oil prices just slow progress even further because people become complacent.
Yes, cutting down on miles driven and moving to more fuel-efficient vehicles makes a difference, but it is only a drop in the bucket.

In the long run, we need to revive the kind of old-fashioned American ingenuity that got us mass produced cars and incandescent lightbulbs and personal computers and develop practical alternatives to oil. We also need to move back towards a producing, self-sufficient economy (which is not to say we should withdraw and become economic hermits); we need to be able to produce the essentials domestically, so that our basic security is not dependant upon the good will of foreign nations and organizations like OPEC.

You know why Colleen, because people are so busy worry about how much SP's clothes cost or whether or not maybe OB knew Ayers 30 years ago or brushed up against him that the important stuff that effects us never gets discussed. Look at this post, it has 3 responses. Now go look at post about Obama not being an american.
We don't have to worry about terrorist destroying our way of life, we are doing a darn good job of it ourselves.
Opec is pretty much flat out saying "our oil, we do what we want with it" and instead of seriously talking about alternative energy or our own oil. What do we talk about "Joe the plumber"
I feel sorry for the next generation....

 

[ford family]

Opec is pretty much flat out saying "our oil, we do what we want with it"

Why wouldn't they say that, it's true, isn't it?

ford family

 

[nannerbadnanner]

Thanks for the article. As a family, we have been trying to to decrease our fuel consumption as much as possible. We have always driven fuel efficient vehicles and now my husband carpools to work.

I think Collen makes a good point about looking at it from all aspects. We have been trying to get a farmers market started in our area because the closest one is 20 miles away.This would support our local farmers, gives us fresh food options, and helps to lessen the environmental impact of our food choices.

Many people aren't going to care until it really starts to hurt, and that has not happened yet.

 

[DawnCt1]

Which is exactly why we need to begin drilling in this country, in ANWR, off shore and NOW.

 

[eliza61]

Why wouldn't they say that, it's true, isn't it?

ford family

Heck yeah, but then we can't get mad at them when they slow production down to force the price of a barrel of oil up. Golden rule: He who owns the gold-rules!

 

[LuvOrlando]

I don't think anyone is arguing that whomever owns the gold/ oil wins... that's the point isn't it. We're in danger because the folks that own the oil OPEC just happen to be made up of plainly anti-American & anti-Western thought countries who just happen to be bent on our destruction. Some folks think they won't hurt us because they are dependent upon us for money and in most economies that would be correct. But Economics is a SOCIAL Science and as such it bends to the will of the people, their customs and their beliefs. Unfortunately for us, the particular countries who make up OPEC happen to be largely of a faith that demands their followers punish heretics (and to them Christians and Jews are blasphemous heretics) on their gods behalf, which is a decidedly foreign way of thinking to those of us in the Western World where our God says "Vengeance is mine".

So here we sit, waiting for things to stabilize but continually assigning our perspective to other parts of the world. The entire mess begs the question: How do we deal with an enemy we can't cut ourselves off from? I would like to think there is a diplomatic solution but I don't think you can discuss the issues reasonably with ancient beliefs... look how far we've gotten with Israel -v- the Arab world with diplomacy... no-where. I just don't know if there is a way to alter the path we are on other than to become more self sufficient as a nation and less dependent on oil, any oil, as soon as possible. To me its a matter of National Security so why isn't anyone anywhere doing anything towards mobilizing us all towards this end?

We've given away our jobs & our manufacturing industries and now everyone is looking around wondering why American's can't take care of themselves... it makes my head hurt. What did the powers that be think was going to happen?!? If you give all the jobs away who is left with enough money to buy whatever it is you are selling?

As far as drilling our own oil, I'm not sure that is anything more than a band-aid for a geyser.

AS for the local farming initiatives, that is a fantastic idea. I'm going shopping tomorrow and will make a huge effort to "BUY AMERICAN"

 

[declansdad]

OPEC sells to other countries besides the US.

This not about one religion trying to punish the religions they don't like. It is about market forces and the fact that the suppliers are able to control the flow. If as a group they decided to decrease the supply, they are entirely within their perogative to do so. Isn't that what a supposedly free market is suppose to do?

 

[LuvOrlando]

OPEC sells to other countries besides the US.

This not about one religion trying to punish the religions they don't like. It is about market forces and the fact that the suppliers are able to control the flow. If as a group they decided to decrease the supply, they are entirely within their perogative to do so. Isn't that what a supposedly free market is suppose to do?

The realities of a Monopoly, or Oligopoly as it is, are not really dominated by the same forces that control a true free market with the benefits provided by competition in said market.

Also, pretending that there aren't any cultural biases in the arrangement are idealistic but not realistic... after all its how we won the Cold War with Russia, and how the British Empire Collapsed, and the French, and the Spanish......

 

[Chuck S]

Wasn't it the people that invested in housing, that quickly got out of the housing market and were looking for a "safe place" to put their $ that created the artificially high oil prices in the futures markets, not OPEC? Didn't OPEC even say there was not legitimate reason for the prices to be that high, that the futures investors were doing it? It actually kind of makes sense, since it was the futures market investment houses that kept predicting (hoping for a self fulfilling prophecy?) $5 or $6 gallon gas.

 

[declansdad]

The realities of a Monopoly, or Oligopoly as it is, are not really dominated by the same forces that control a true free market with the benefits provided by competition in said market.

Also, pretending that there aren't any cultural biases in the arrangement are idealistic but not realistic... after all its how we won the Cold War with Russia, and how the British Empire Collapsed, and the French, and the Spanish......

Why would the OPEC countries want to destroy their biggest customer? They are not stupid and they know how to make money. Controlling the supply is their main method of controlling the price. In an oligopolistic market with relative few suppliers, the suppliers hold the power.

 

[daisax]

Unfortunately for us, the particular countries who make up OPEC happen to be largely of a faith that demands their followers punish heretics (and to them Christians and Jews are blasphemous heretics) on their gods behalf, which is a decidedly foreign way of thinking to those of us in the Western World where our God says "Vengeance is mine".

I think you need to brush up on your comparative religion studies. There's no "their" God vs. "our" God except in the imaginations of the zealots on either side.

 

[Chuck S]

AS for the local farming initiatives, that is a fantastic idea. I'm going shopping tomorrow and will make a huge effort to "BUY AMERICAN"

Went shopping today. Lettuce, Tomato, Celery, Fresh Mushrooms, Spinach & Strawberries - USA

Avocados & Cantelope - Mexico

Mangos & Papayas - Brazil

Plums & Grapes- Chile

Bananas - Guatemala

Canned Mushrooms - Product of China

Good luck keeping all your produce "American Grown"

 

[LuvOrlando]

Wasn't it the people that invested in housing, that quickly got out of the housing market and were looking for a "safe place" to put their $ that created the artificially high oil prices in the futures markets, not OPEC? Didn't OPEC even say there was not legitimate reason for the prices to be that high, that the futures investors were doing it? It actually kind of makes sense, since it was the futures market investment houses that kept predicting (hoping for a self fulfilling prophecy?) $5 or $6 gallon gas.

Who is 'the people' with money in the markets? The people are every single American with money in 401K's and other investments, just like the times preceding the Great Depression. 401K's, and Mutual Funds etc are vehicles through which small potatoes investors are pooled together so they can make grand gesture & big splash investments. Those investment pools absolutely dumped money into the mortgage markets, making money available to sub-prime buyers for sky high interest rates. Where do you think those high yields come from? They come from high risk, and high yield/high risk mean there is an excellent chance of loss.

When the price of gas started to diminish our buying power and people started to struggle they pulled their money out of investments for real life spending, then the available money for the pyramid scheme that is Wall Street started to collapse. Everything is intertwined.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Why would the OPEC countries want to destroy their biggest customer? They are not stupid and they know how to make money. Controlling the supply is their main method of controlling the price. In an oligopolistic market with relative few suppliers, the suppliers hold the power.

Please see my 1st and second posts. We, as a nation, really have to stop the application of our own priorities to the rest of the world. The reason they do it is because they are more interested in winning than in profits. Even this country was willing to go without not too long ago during World War II when we as a nation accepted the sacrifices associated with the War effort such as rationing etc. Now today, we would never collectively do any such thing, but our behaviors are our own culture's peculiarities and do not necessarily apply to the rest of the world. I do not think it is unreasonable to accept that a person, any person, would go against the wave if he/she or even an entire culture felt it was in their best interests to seek out an alternative goal.

 

[LuvOrlando]

I think you need to brush up on your comparative religion studies. There's no "their" God vs. "our" God except in the imaginations of the zealots on either side.

Don't get me wrong, i am not out to demonize an entire culture. What they believe and what I believe have zero to do with each other as far as I am concerned. However, it is no secret that Judaism, Islam and Christianity all share the same family tree. There were great schisms where-by each differentiated from one another and became separate. Neither the Jews nor the Muslims accept Jesus as the son of God (no judgment here, its simply a fact) yet they hold onto the original beliefs so to both of them Christians are heretics, and each sees the other in the same light. Now, how each is called to handle heresy is open to interpretation. Just look up the definition of heretic and you'll see this term is being used properly. This is an ancient issue not easily resolved.

 

[Chuck S]

But in your first & second posts, you are trying to lay the blame for our economy at OPEC's doorstep.

My point is this, those that invested in mortages depended upon banks to not qualify people for loans that had no way of paying them back. But the bankers did grant risky loans, which boosted the housing market to artificially high prices. So that cycle was doomed to collapse eventually, any way.

Then, as the housing market began to cool, both those that made a nice profit "flipping" houses, and those that invested in mortgages, pulled their investments...leaving the banks short on funds. Their brokers and advisors then recommended investingin energy futures, specifically oil. Telling them the price would go through the roof...which it did for a short time, again encouraged by overzealous investments in a market that had been stable, and growing slowly for years. The futures market had a sudden boom as a result. But again, reality could not support a market artificially inflated by rapid investment and profit taking. Same exact cycle as the housing market, only in fast forward panic mode. Of course the price was going to fall, there was plenty of supply with falling demand.

Sorry, OPEC has very little to do with our crisis, it was caused by good old fashioned American greed.

 

[Colleen27]

Went shopping today. Lettuce, Tomato, Celery, Fresh Mushrooms, Spinach & Strawberries - USA

Avocados & Cantelope - Mexico

Mangos & Papayas - Brazil

Plums & Grapes- Chile

Bananas - Guatemala

Canned Mushrooms - Product of China

Good luck keeping all your produce "American Grown"

Its not that hard to do, but you do need to be willing to make compromises. One of the greatest changes of our time is the fact that our expectations re: fresh produce are now completely divorced from the realities of growing seasons. Buying locally grown or even American grown does mean accepting that you can't always get grapes in November or oranges in July, but it isn't a difficult change to make once you get into the habit. And a surprising amount of produce can be preserved fairly easily.

I will say this - it really helps to have an extra freezer. Right now, I've got about 25 lbs of blueberries, 60 ears of corn, 5lbs of strawberries, and about a half-dozen 1gal ziplock bags each of raspberries, peppers, zucchini, summer squash and peapods from my gardens. And that's not even touching the stuff I've canned...

 

[Colleen27]

Which is exactly why we need to begin drilling in this country, in ANWR, off shore and NOW.

Thats just a short-term fix, and one that isn't likely to have as much impact as promised because oil produced here will be traded on the same global market as OPEC's oil and thus will be somewhat subject to the same price manipulations. I'm not saying not to drill, but we need to keep in mind that is only one aspect of really addressing the problem and not put all our eggs in the "domestic oil" basket.