NYT opinion piece: Disney and the Decline of America’s Middle Class

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

we were dirt poor and it was the one family trip

I think that depends on if we're talking about poor people today who expect a whole lot more luxuries

You were not "dirt poor" and you have a very skewed viewpoint of not only your upbringing and where you fit in income level but that of people today. Your points would be much better off if you tried not to paint yourself as lacking money when indeed your family still had money, disposable income as well as not trying to paint "poor" people in such an incredibly incorrect stereotype. Sometimes people need to do a bit more introspection into their own situations.

 

[AquaDame]

You were not "dirt poor" and you have a very skewed viewpoint of not only your upbringing and where you fit in income level but that of people today. Your points would be much better off if you tried not to paint yourself as lacking money when indeed your family still had money, disposable income as well as not trying to paint "poor" people in such an incredibly incorrect stereotype. Sometimes people need to do a bit more introspection into their own situations.

This is not unique to that poster - its a problem of the way America sees itself. Almost everyone thinks of themselves as middle class because we declare that is the most virtuous place to be. We pretend it has power and is listened to. Pretty much everyone has people who have more and have less, so clearly they are in the middle. No one wants to say they're poor, and no one wants to admit they're upper class.

 

[zackiedawg]

You were not "dirt poor" and you have a very skewed viewpoint of not only your upbringing and where you fit in income level but that of people today. Your points would be much better off if you tried not to paint yourself as lacking money when indeed your family still had money, disposable income as well as not trying to paint "poor" people in such an incredibly incorrect stereotype. Sometimes people need to do a bit more introspection into their own situations.

I'd be curious what you would have defined as 'poor' in the early 1970s. In 1972, the U.S. poverty threshold for a nonfarm family of four was $4,275. We were a family of 5 and below that level. We were eligible for food stamps and Medicaid. It was likely irresponsible for my grandparents to take that one annual trip to Disney for the sake of the kids, but they did it anyway, even if it meant sacrificing other things like clothes and presents. When they decided to move from NJ to FL, they fell for a 'cheap land' scam buying into a drained swamp on the edge of the Everglades with small cheap houses built on a dirt road with no city water service. By sheer luck, sticking it out, the nearby cities to the east expanded over the decades, ultimately spreading to unincorporated county land and paving the roads, bringing in public service and water/sewer, and putting their house officially in 'city limits', raising the home values - though both grandparents only had social security and veteran's benefits from my grandfather's service in WWII.

But I'll concede the point that we were 'middle class' since it seems to be bringing up some resistance and contention. It's not what I would call middle class, but if that's what people think is middle class today, I guess my view is skewed. I am happy to not be there myself, and hope I never have to fall to that level of middle class-ness.

 

[Brian rhymes with dyin]

?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I'd be curious what you would have defined as 'poor' in the early 1970s. In 1972, the U.S. poverty threshold for a nonfarm family of four was $4,275. We were a family of 5 and below that level. We were eligible for food stamps and Medicaid. It was likely irresponsible for my grandparents to take that one annual trip to Disney for the sake of the kids, but they did it anyway, even if it meant sacrificing other things like clothes and presents. When they decided to move from NJ to FL, they fell for a 'cheap land' scam buying into a drained swamp on the edge of the Everglades with small cheap houses built on a dirt road with no city water service. By sheer luck, sticking it out, the nearby cities to the east expanded over the decades, ultimately spreading to unincorporated county land and paving the roads, bringing in public service and water/sewer, and putting their house officially in 'city limits', raising the home values - though both grandparents only had social security and veteran's benefits from my grandfather's service in WWII.

But I'll concede the point that we were 'middle class' since it seems to be bringing up some resistance and contention. It's not what I would call middle class, but if that's what people think is middle class today, I guess my view is skewed. I am happy to not be there myself, and hope I never have to fall to that level of middle class-ness.

You're looking at it through your lens of having gone to a Disney park every year since you were 3 (and you mention you're 56 now), you've owned DVC for decades now, etc.

You're trying to rationalize why your family went but through a very skewed way of doing so. Most ridiculous is trying to stereotype people of today. You cannot attempt to backpeddle now and try and give examples for why you were this or that.

If what you say is true that your family actually gave up things like purchasing clothes for you to go to Disney ironically it would be viewed just the same as what you said of the poor people today but I understand it can be hard for us to see ourselves in a certain way.

Most of us will agree the attainability in Disney is different than back then. I can understand your underlying point that you were able to go there through ways that are less likely than today, that point would have been made without your other things which are far more telling than you think it is.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

One thing that I've noticed is that I tend to comment to myself that "there are a whole lot of people richer than me" much more often in Vegas than I do at WDW.

All the things that people complain about at WDW - expensive/exclusive parties, ridiculous cost-per-plate restaurants, super expensive prime show seating, and, of course, the cocktail waitresses that only bother to wait on the whales - are all much, much worse in Vegas than WDW.

We have been to Vegas enough times, most recently a month and a half ago, and outside of the resort fees which I agree are nutty most things are about the same as they have been for a while. I haven't walked around thinking there's a whole lot of people richer than me at Vegas but have seen an uptick in VIP plaids out and about in 2022 and our brief mini trip last month in WDW. And if I use this board as pre-knowledge the amount of people purchasing LLPP is a good amount.

I think for Vegas it depends on how often you've gone and the time period. I mentioned it to someone on the Boards who hadn't been in like 15-20 years how much it must have changed then but for us who have gone in 2017 (we both went separately in 2009 though), 2019, several times in 2021, 2022, 2023 and 2025 and that's not including the work trips my husband does which is several times a year it's roughly the same costs. I will say free parking is definitely a thing of the past mostly with the Sphere coming around though Wynn/Encore still offers free parking for hotel guests it used to be free for everyone until the Sphere came around and the Venetian/Palazzo changed up their policy.

As far as cocktail waitresses totally disagree there or at least that's not my husband's experience who is more into getting the drink while he plays video poker. Hardly the whale (laughable to think him being $2-$10 up off $20 makes him a whale) and yet he always has good service.

It's also hard to compare Vegas to Disney because Disney requires tickets for entry which are often the highest barrier to people. Now what I will say is as much as I love F1 I do think what it has done to Vegas in terms of how much Bellagio Fountains has taken a hit is a travesty but will also say that Bellagio Fountains has gotten too stale in what the songs they choose and instead of eagerly awaiting them being a highlight of the trip we may only watch 1 maybe 2 shows because it's the same songs we've heard for too many years. Even Wynn's Lake of Dreams (which we switched to) could use a refresh in songs.

 

[zackiedawg]

You're looking at it through your lens of having gone to a Disney park every year since you were 3 (and you mention you're 56 now), you've owned DVC for decades now, etc.

Of course - we all look at things through our own lens. For 3 years my grandparents drove down from NJ to go to Disney once a year, then moved to Florida where it became a much shorter drive and less expensive (no overnight stops on the way up and down) and still we went once a year. 9 years later, my mother married someone solidly middle-upper class and my situation changed drastically - enabling me to go to private schools and college which likely wouldn't have been possible otherwise - and make multiple family trips to Disney each year. I was the first person in my family to get a college degree, and I am in a much better financial situation that has enabled me to continue to enjoy Disney, buy into DVC, etc.

You're trying to rationalize why your family went but through a very skewed way of doing so. Most ridiculous is trying to stereotype people of today. You cannot attempt to backpeddle now and try and give examples for why you were this or that.

I don't mean to stereotype ALL poor people today - but I base it on people in my extended family who are still below the poverty income line, as well as a few high school friends in the same boat. THEY definitely want more and get more than my family did - going into significantly more debt to get things they want - several have declared multiple bankruptcies to erase ballooning credit card debt, loans, etc, then within 6 months get more credit card offers and run them right back up again. While not all poor people do this, the ones I know do - so certainly I'm viewing that through my lens.

If what you say is true that your family actually gave up things like purchasing clothes for you to go to Disney ironically it would be viewed just the same as what you said of the poor people today but I understand it can be hard for us to see ourselves in a certain way.

I see it exactly in that way - it was irresponsible and they were very much doing that type of thing I was accusing some poor of doing today. I'm extremely happy they did as it made my life fun getting to go to Disney - but it wasn't a responsible thing to do.

Most of us will agree the attainability in Disney is different than back then. I can understand your underlying point that you were able to go there through ways that are less likely than today, that point would have been made without your other things which are far more telling than you think it is.

Nothing is more or less telling than I think it is - I stated my background, my opinions, and have nothing to hide about either. I've managed to have a very happy life, through below-the-poverty-line early years with grandparents to upper-middle class living with step-family to my own middle class post-college solo years, to comfortable class in my later years. Any comments I have about how some people live today is based only on my personal experiences with friends & family, neighbors, and the cities in which I live or have lived, which range from upper class to poor. Excepting people whose profession it is to research social classes and income levels, I'm pretty confident everyone here bases their opinions, feelings, and comments about various classes of people through their own lenses.