NEW RUMOR!!!! Kinda strange.

[perdidochas]

But the tornados aren't with any frequency (that's why Florida tornados make national news) and the hurricanes are usually cat 1 by the time they are in Orlando...just a bad rainstorm.

By the time a hurricane hits Dallas, it's also just a bad rainstorm.

Any major tornado that kills 14+ people is national news.

 

[1FoolishMortal]

But the tornados aren't with any frequency (that's why Florida tornados make national news) and the hurricanes are usually cat 1 by the time they are in Orlando...just a bad rainstorm.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you for agreeing.

C) Disney can't even get people to walk a hundred yards from Disneyland's Main Gate to buy a ticket for California Adventure. Do you think they have the confidence to believe they can get 10 million people to suddenly pack-up for a trip to Podunk?

It might be a good idea to check the facts first. DCA's attendance has been steadily increasing since 2002 (that's almost 5 straight years of increasing attendance). Its future is looking very promising, and it's certainly in better condition now than it was in 2001. DCA isn't failing and it won't fail until the resort does.

D) Disney is run by a guy who thought "Am I Hot or Not" and "Wife Swap" were fantastic ideas for American Television and then cancelled Monday Night Football. Do you think he's going to understand how Texans want to spend their weekend?

Have you seen what he's done within the past year? He's managed to acquire Pixar, reacquire Walt's first cartoon character, patch relationships with the Disney family, increase the company's stock by $10 within the past year, etc., etc., etc.

The man is a marvel when it comes to what he's done in the short time he's been CEO. He deserves a lot more credit than that.

 

[Another Voice]

DCA's attendance has been steadily increasing since 2002

Yes, DCA has really benefited from the spillover as Disneyland’s attendance has soared. It’s a waiting room for people locked out of the real theme park on busy days.

It also helps that almost no one going into California Adventure buys a ticket for it. Since 2002 DCA as become a free gift with a purchase of a Disneyland ticket. From the continuing ‘2fer’ promotions, the “2 day parkhopper for the price of 1 day” and the elimination of the “park hopper” add-on to annual passes – it is very clear DCA can not draw a crowd on its own. “Raising attendance” means “more ways of getting in free”.

California Adventure is a failure from every metric possible. It is poorly designed, poorly executed and stinks with disrespect for the paying customer. It will remain a joke to Disney’s guests until the company works up the courage to admit it was a mistake and then moves to correct the situation.

The man is a marvel when it comes to what he's done in the short time he's been CEO.

He overpaid by billions for Pixar because he lacked the nerve to attempt to make good movies on his own; the sequels to Pirates became so bloated he had to fire 25% of the studio’s staff. He talks about technology, yet has already seen the disastrous and embarrassing failure of ESPN Cell Phones. Ratings for ABC’s tent pole series (both of which he tried to prevent from even airing, only to be overruled by Michael Eisner) are failing fast; the only new ratings hit on ABC is falling apart because its stars are spending more time in “hate rehab” instead of on the set. The stock market has soared to all time highs, yet Disney (which, as an index component gets a free ride with the tide) languishes far off its norms. The expansion to Hong Kong has been so poorly managed that future expansion in China and Singapore has been shelved. He has yet to replace any major business unit leader despite several years of questionable results. He has yet to articulate a vision for the company’s most visiable business unit – Attractions – other than the technology on ‘Toy Story Mania’ is so advanced it will automatically dumb-down the ride to fit the mental power of a Sr. V.P. And now the lastest that Consumer Products is trying to push a billion dollar “Fairy” toy line, only the movie that’s supposed to kick the whole thing off is so terrible it will have to be remade.

And worst of all – that stupid wand is still over Spaceship Earth.

 

[MJMcBride]

A) Disney can pour $600 million into a new theme park and hope to recoup their investment in 20 years. OR they could put $60 million into Pirate of the Caribbean 27 - The Search for a Coconut and make double their money in a single weekend. Which sounds like today's Disney?

B) No one goes to Texas on vacation; Disney still only gets about 1/4 of the people traveling to Florida to spend a day with the mouse. Which place would be easier to generate a few more tourists?

I agree with these two other than the fact that it would cost more than $60 million to make The Search for a Coconut.

 

[1FoolishMortal]

Yes, DCA has really benefited from the spillover as Disneyland’s attendance has soared. It’s a waiting room for people locked out of the real theme park on busy days.

It also helps that almost no one going into California Adventure buys a ticket for it. Since 2002 DCA as become a free gift with a purchase of a Disneyland ticket. From the continuing ‘2fer’ promotions, the “2 day parkhopper for the price of 1 day” and the elimination of the “park hopper” add-on to annual passes – it is very clear DCA can not draw a crowd on its own. “Raising attendance” means “more ways of getting in free”.

California Adventure is a failure from every metric possible. It is poorly designed, poorly executed and stinks with disrespect for the paying customer. It will remain a joke to Disney’s guests until the company works up the courage to admit it was a mistake and then moves to correct the situation.

Oui, where to begin. I'm always amazed that there are people still convinced that DCA is only successful because of the "2fer" and Park Hoppers.

There's no basis in that argument, whatsoever. DCA's attendance is calculated by the number of "ticks" if that's the first theme park the person enters that day. If DL is visited first, though, the "tick" goes to DL instead of DCA. It works the other way as well: if someone visits DCA first then goes to DL, the "tick" goes to DCA.

Therefore, one cannot claim that DCA's attendance is solely derived from people "spilling over" from DL. It simply couldn't have attendance numbers as high as it does if that were the case.


Oh, and for the record, Disney has admitted multiple times that DCA is a challenged park and needs to be worked on. Bob Iger, Matt Ouimet, and Ed Grier have all admitted this fact.



As far as your arguments surrounding Bob Iger, I'm not even going to bother debating those. It's not worth it.

 

[raidermatt]

Oui, where to begin. I'm always amazed that there are people still convinced that DCA is only successful because of the "2fer" and Park Hoppers.

There's no basis in that argument, whatsoever. DCA's attendance is calculated by the number of "ticks" if that's the first theme park the person enters that day. If DL is visited first, though, the "tick" goes to DL instead of DCA. It works the other way as well: if someone visits DCA first then goes to DL, the "tick" goes to DCA.

Therefore, one cannot claim that DCA's attendance is solely derived from people "spilling over" from DL. It simply couldn't have attendance numbers as high as it does if that were the case.

What are those attendance numbers? Disney doesn't publish them, and the only unbiased source has quit making its guesstimates.

That aside, the 2fers are not designed to be hoppers. They give you admission to the other park on a different day. There is no issue about which park is clicked first. You buy a ticket to DL, you get to comeback to DCA for free.

Unless, of course, you are asserting that people really aren't willing to buy a ticket for DL, and only go because it was thrown in with their full-price DCA admission.

The point about hoppers was not which park gets the click, but the way the pricing and marketing changed.

Oh, and for the record, Disney has admitted multiple times that DCA is a challenged park and needs to be worked on. Bob Iger, Matt Ouimet, and Ed Grier have all admitted this fact.

Then why are you arguing the point?

As far as your arguments surrounding Bob Iger, I'm not even going to bother debating those. It's not worth it.

Smart move.

 

[1FoolishMortal]

What are those attendance numbers? Disney doesn't publish them, and the only unbiased source has quit making its guesstimates.

That aside, the 2fers are not designed to be hoppers. They give you admission to the other park on a different day. There is no issue about which park is clicked first. You buy a ticket to DL, you get to comeback to DCA for free.

Unless, of course, you are asserting that people really aren't willing to buy a ticket for DL, and only go because it was thrown in with their full-price DCA admission.

The point about hoppers was not which park gets the click, but the way the pricing and marketing changed.

Those attendance numbers, for the most part, are from AB. In 2003, DCA experienced a 13% increase in attendance, and a 6% increase in 2004. Subsequent years have resulted in more increases in attendance, which has been noted by numerous people on multiple fansites across the Disney online community. DCA has definitely been more crowded this year as this last holiday season they were forced to close both DL and DCA because it was so crowded.

The point I was trying to make was that DCA is not simply an "overflow" park for disappointed guests turned away from DL. The attendance numbers at both parks prove that and it would be wrong to say otherwise.

Then why are you arguing the point?

"Another Voice" stated that DCA was a "spillover" park for DL; I was arguing against that fact. Yes, DCA may be flawed, but flawed doesn't = unpopular. Too many people make that connection and it doesn't make sense no matter what way you spin it.

Smart move.

I thought so. I'm quite happy with my Disney stock shooting up in price in the last year. No need to argue the successes behind why it increased.

 

[Another Voice]

The point I was trying to make was that DCA is not simply an "overflow" park for disappointed guests turned away from DL.

No, what I'm saying is the park is worse than that. It's not even a place where people will say "Disneyland looks crowded today, let's spend the day at California Adventure". Instead people go home or only spend a few hours until Disneyland's gates open again.

Even during normal operations, DCA is nothing but three addtional rides stapled onto Disneyland for most guests. People will run over to ride 'Soaring', 'Screaming', and 'Grizzly' - but the rest of the park is useless

And, since you've used it as a source, there are "fansites" on the Internet that claim inside knowledge that on days when Disneyland sells tens of thousands of single day tickets, the number sold for DCA is in the low hundreds.

It's simple - proven by both the numbers and by Disney's behavior - no one is willing to pay for California Adventure.

Sure, Disney's senior management have hinted at the disaster in Anaheim, but so far they've shown the same business ignorance and greed that caused DCA to be such a horrible place to begin with. So far Disney has done nothing to improve DCA, and they've made a few cheap attempts at "more of the same, only with Pixar characters!" that have been rejected by the public.

And I'm sure if you took a real "guest survey" you'd find that most guests would prefer to have the parking lot back instead of having DCA. Avoiding the truely botched parking mess we have now is worth losing the Whoopi moive.

No wonder Disney won't build another park in the U.S. At this rate it's going to take decades for DCA to grow up from "laughing stock" all the way to "failure".

P.S. Thanks for agreeing with me in Iger's lack of business success.

 

[BRERALEX]

 

[G8RFAN]

Well since the topic has shifted to DCA, I'm guessing that DCA is an abomination and failure primarily due to the fact that a large portion of it is filled with permanent carney type rides. Disney is held to a higher standard and that there is absolutely no imagination and "magic" with everything across the water at DCL. I guess I am not a Disney purist. We went to DL in 12/05 and expected two days of entertainment from both DL and DCA and that's what we got. Was DCA supposed to be a standalone park like the 4 major parks at WDW? I hate to open this can of worms, but I don't think DL even qualifies. If DCA wasn't there, we would have spent a day at Knott's Berry Farms instead. So for all intents and purposes, DCA worked to keep us there. I also recall being able to hop back and forth which we did to get fastpasses. My son really enjoyed some of the "amusement park rides" at DCA as well as I did for the more adult rides. The layout was fine for us and understandable because of the nature of the existing property constraints. The way they handled security checks from what I remember was a little funky when it got busy. If I recall, DL was not at capacity and there were still long lines to get into DCA. There was also a special opening event for Narnia at DTD, so all three venues were crowded but not at capacity.

 

[1FoolishMortal]

No, what I'm saying is the park is worse than that. It's not even a place where people will say "Disneyland looks crowded today, let's spend the day at California Adventure". Instead people go home or only spend a few hours until Disneyland's gates open again.

Proof?

Even during normal operations, DCA is nothing but three addtional rides stapled onto Disneyland for most guests. People will run over to ride 'Soaring', 'Screaming', and 'Grizzly' - but the rest of the park is useless

Proof?

And, since you've used it as a source, there are "fansites" on the Internet that claim inside knowledge that on days when Disneyland sells tens of thousands of single day tickets, the number sold for DCA is in the low hundreds.

If you're referencing Mr. Lutz, then you may want to check your sources.

It's simple - proven by both the numbers and by Disney's behavior - no one is willing to pay for California Adventure.

Again, proof? Just because people by park hoppers doesn't mean they aren't willing to pay for DCA. You might as well say the same thing for WDW & TDR. If the argument is true for the DLR, then it's true for all of them.

Sure, Disney's senior management have hinted at the disaster in Anaheim, but so far they've shown the same business ignorance and greed that caused DCA to be such a horrible place to begin with. So far Disney has done nothing to improve DCA, and they've made a few cheap attempts at "more of the same, only with Pixar characters!" that have been rejected by the public.

Proof? Let's see....placemaking in HPB, Tower of Terror, Blast!, Aladdin, Drawn to the Magic, revamp of the Animation building, Disney's Electrical Parade, Block Party Bash, High School Musical Pep Rally, Toy Story Mania, Monster's Inc., addition of Flik's Fun Fair, Playhouse Disney Live, general park maintenance and upkeep in recent months, new Halloween additions, and not to mention all the plans in the works to further fix the parks.

d I'm sure if you took a real "guest survey" you'd find that most guests would prefer to have the parking lot back instead of having DCA. Avoiding the truely botched parking mess we have now is worth losing the Whoopi moive.

Proof? Again, the numbers sure don't support that opinion.

No wonder Disney won't build another park in the U.S. At this rate it's going to take decades for DCA to grow up from "laughing stock" all the way to "failure".

Proof? Opinion doesn't count.


So far, all I've seen is opinion, and little to no facts supporting the argument that DCA is, basically, a crapshoot. Take it for what it's worth, but DCA has been steadily performing better and that trend hasn't reversed for quite a while.

P.S. Thanks for agreeing with me in Iger's lack of business success.

P.S. - Thanks for twisting my words against me. I appreciate it.

 

[Another Voice]

The only proof required comes from the wording of Disneyland's own website for the 2fer tickets - "The 2fer ticket is the best way to experience The Year of a Million Dreams! With the 2fer ticket, you can enjoy Disneyland® Park on one day and Disney's California Adventure® Park on another day FREE!"


When Disney sells a park as being FREE!, you know there's a serious problem there.

The facts are clear, only the willingly dupes or the paid don't see the problems at the park. The park was designed to be better than Disneyland, to draw in the ironic well-heeled wine-tasting superior class of visitor ready to pay big bucks for a hip-and-edgy experience. The park's failed on every level - from collapse of the upper end restaurants to the closing of all the 'hip-and-edgy' to the panicked Pixar push with rides bought from a shopping mall, and dumb "maybe this will work" ideas (X-Games X-perience!, Luminaria, etc.) so that anyone can see what's really happening.

Or are you too busy standing on Harbor Blvd. waiting to get into the third gate?

But the seriousness about this goes straight to the heart of what's currently wrong with Disney. Instead of trying to do what is right and watching that become a financial success, Disney does the quick, the cheap and the easy and tries to market its way to perceived success. It's much easier to pay a marketing firm to make positive posts on the Internet than it is to build an attraction so good that there is no doubt about it.

The public has seen through the smoke and mirrors of California Adventure. It’s time Disney® acts like Real Disney.

I hate to open this can of worms, but I don't think DL even qualifies. If DCA wasn't there, we would have spent a day at Knott's Berry Farms instead.

Perhaps because, based on you signature, you go to WDW more often than most people go to the dentist that maybe you've already seen a lot of what Disneyland had to offer. It's kinda of saying you went to a MacDonalds in Anaheim and whining that it serves the same hamburger you could have gotten closer to home.

 

[Rence]

I have been to most of the major theme parks across the country and my single worst theme park experience was DCA. The park itself was not that bad, but it was the most poorly managed place I have ever been to. I have never seen a theme park staff that was so rude or simply uncaring.

The park itself is probably a bit better than some of the better Six-Flags but not up to the same standards as the other Diney parks. It wouldn't be that hard to fix the place from a park standpoint.

But I would fire every last member of park management and start from scratch.

 

[raidermatt]

Was DCA supposed to be a standalone park like the 4 major parks at WDW?

That's how it was priced originally, so the short answer is yes.

I hate to open this can of worms, but I don't think DL even qualifies.

Well, I've read a lot of debates on this and other boards about whether DL is better than MK, and certainly there are a lot of people on both sides of that one. But I have to say you are the first person I've seen say that DL doesn't measure up to any of the 4 WDW parks as a standalone park.

Its got more attractions than MGM and AK combined.

 

[1FoolishMortal]

Its got more attractions than MGM and AK combined.

It has more attractions than the MK by itself, as well.

The only proof required comes from the wording of Disneyland's own website for the 2fer tickets - "The 2fer ticket is the best way to experience The Year of a Million Dreams! With the 2fer ticket, you can enjoy Disneyland® Park on one day and Disney's California Adventure® Park on another day FREE!"


When Disney sells a park as being FREE!, you know there's a serious problem there.

That doesn't prove that the park is a failure beyond belief. This promotion has been going on for quite a few years now and it has proven very successful. In my eyes, the 2fer ticket is no different than a park hopper; it's just a better deal than the park hopper. Theoretically, they both work the same way.....except the 2fer is 2 parks on 2 separate days.

The facts are clear, only the willingly dupes or the paid don't see the problems at the park. The park was designed to be better than Disneyland, to draw in the ironic well-heeled wine-tasting superior class of visitor ready to pay big bucks for a hip-and-edgy experience. The park's failed on every level - from collapse of the upper end restaurants to the closing of all the 'hip-and-edgy' to the panicked Pixar push with rides bought from a shopping mall, and dumb "maybe this will work" ideas (X-Games X-perience!, Luminaria, etc.) so that anyone can see what's really happening.

Or are you too busy standing on Harbor Blvd. waiting to get into the third gate?

Excuse me? Thanks for throwing me into the "willingly duped" category. Also, the park wasn't designed to be better than Disneyland. No where, anywhere, did they state the park was supposed to be better.

Also, all the problems you've discussed happened years ago. These aren't recent problems that just cropped up. Yes, I'll admit, that the park did have promotions in the beginning that were cheap and didn't work, but it's been a LONG time since they were used.

I can't see either how Monster's Inc., Turtle Talk, and Toy Story Mania all fall into the category of "mall" attractions. Might as well throw Disneyland into a mall, too. That'll solve all our problems.

But the seriousness about this goes straight to the heart of what's currently wrong with Disney. Instead of trying to do what is right and watching that become a financial success, Disney does the quick, the cheap and the easy and tries to market its way to perceived success. It's much easier to pay a marketing firm to make positive posts on the Internet than it is to build an attraction so good that there is no doubt about it.

The public has seen through the smoke and mirrors of California Adventure. It’s time Disney® acts like Real Disney.

Again, excuse me??? I'm in no way involved with a marketing firm, and Disney doesn't pay me to talk positive about the park. Maybe I'm not the one standing on Harbor waiting for the 3rd gate.


I still haven't seen any proof that DCA is a disaster zone in the eyes of the public.

 

[G8RFAN]

Perhaps because, based on you signature, you go to WDW more often than most people go to the dentist that maybe you've already seen a lot of what Disneyland had to offer. It's kinda of saying you went to a MacDonalds in Anaheim and whining that it serves the same hamburger you could have gotten closer to home.

Or perhaps because there isn't enough to do at DL for more than just a weekend trip without including DCA. Would WDW sell a Central Florida Pass to go to both parks at Universal, Seaworld, Gatorland and maybe since Tampa isn't too far Busch Gardens designed for guests that book a week stay or more? I bet DL's most popular non resident ticket sale is the 2 or 3 day park hopper which tells me that as a single vacation destination, it is not. BTW, we felt very much at home at DL and really enjoyed it. WDW experience may have kept us from being your typical overwhelmed tourist, but we still managed to try most of the major attractions and even many times of the less popular ones like Casey Jr. and all of Toontown just through time management and tips learned through the board. All I wanted to add was our experience as a non-SC resident traveling a long way to visit and how DCA did not disappoint, but maybe because we purposely made sure we had no expectations from our experience at WDW.

 

[G8RFAN]

Well, I've read a lot of debates on this and other boards about whether DL is better than MK, and certainly there are a lot of people on both sides of that one. But I have to say you are the first person I've seen say that DL doesn't measure up to any of the 4 WDW parks as a standalone park.

Its got more attractions than MGM and AK combined.

I fail to see where I made that statement. Plus, I don't think you can qualify a park by it's attraction count. If that were the case, nobody should be going to US-Hollywood and everyone should line up for Six Flags. AK is a one day park. MGM is a one day park. Are they good standalone parks? IMHO, not really or I should say that I would not travel to Orlando just to go to one park. It doesn't mean I am ashamed that Disney opened them. Together, all 4 parks, the two water parks and the resorts represent a single vacation destination that I love. Keep in mind, for the typical vacationer who flys into Orlando, if they are not buying a multiday park pass, they are probably spending time at the other major parks in the area as well or maybe not Disney at all. The cottage industry that developed around MK and then EPCOT was competing for vacationer dollars and doing quite well until WDW developed more parks and resorts to keep you on property. I don't think DL does that well without DCA or at least like I mentioned earlier, kept us from visiting other SCal attractions (we did split stays in Burbank for US Hollywood).

We liked DCA as tourists and that is all that matters. I could nit pick WDW till I'm toes up, but then I wouldn't enjoy vacations there would I?

 

[OnWithTheShow]

The stock market has soared to all time highs, yet Disney (which, as an index component gets a free ride with the tide) languishes far off its norms.

AV I agree with most of what you are saying but I cant quite understand what you are saying with the above. Over the last year the SandP was up 18% while Disney was up 40%. They normally grew more than 40% per year? Not during my lifetime.

 

[raidermatt]

AK is a one day park. MGM is a one day park. Are they good standalone parks? IMHO, not really or I should say that I would not travel to Orlando just to go to one park. It doesn't mean I am ashamed that Disney opened them. Together, all 4 parks, the two water parks and the resorts represent a single vacation destination that I love.

We all know what they were TRYING to do with DCA. The point is, it failed. That's why the pricing was changed almost immediately. That's why the theme was essentially abandoned. That's why the 3rd gate, which Disneyland actually had a website for, was cancelled.

Its great that you like DCA, and you're right that for your family, that's all that matters. But when we are discussing the park with respect to the business goals it was designed to achieve, and even if those goals were the right goals in the first place, then whatever you or I personally think about the place doesn't matter.

That doesn't prove that the park is a failure beyond belief. This promotion has been going on for quite a few years now and it has proven very successful. In my eyes, the 2fer ticket is no different than a park hopper; it's just a better deal than the park hopper. Theoretically, they both work the same way.....except the 2fer is 2 parks on 2 separate days.

There's a big difference between a ticket that allows going back and forth between two parks for one operating day, and one that allows admission for two operating days.

You even say that its a "better deal". That's the point. Its HAS to be a better deal to get people in the park.

Also, the park wasn't designed to be better than Disneyland. No where, anywhere, did they state the park was supposed to be better.

And that's cool with you?

That sort of "lower the bar" mentality is what drew you to Disney?

Give the people less than you gave them before, but charge them the same?

Even given their lowered expectations business plan, you've even admitted they failed to even reach that lowered bar. They didn't even meet their own expectations, and in a rare move, they have publically acknowledged it.

I still haven't seen any proof that DCA is a disaster zone in the eyes of the public.

Is your only argument that the park is a failure, but not a complete disaster zone?

 

[EUROPACL]

I still haven't seen any proof that DCA is a disaster zone in the eyes of the public.