"Naked" X-Ray Scans At The Airport.. Your Thoughts?

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This is the list of people charged in the July 21rst attacks in London

http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4732361.stm

Hussain Osman
Ibrahim Muktar Said
Ramzi Mohamed
Yassin Hassan Omar
Manfo Kwaku Asiedu
Adel Yahya
Siraj Yassin Abdullah Ali
Wharbi Mohammed
Asias Girma
Ismael Abdurahman
Shadi Sami Abdel Gadir
Omar Nagmeloin Almagboul
Abdul Sharif
Mohamed Kabashi
Yeshiemebet Girma
Mulumebet Girma and
Muhedin Ali

Of course I am not sure that there isn't a Joe Smith out there, but profiling seems like it might be a good idea, no?


One of the bombers on 7/7 was called Germaine Maurice Lindsay......his 'converted' name was Abdullah Shaheed Jamal. If we start profiling people by their names what is to stop them keeping their non-muslim name for offical purposes like passports etc? If I can suss that out it must surely have crossed the mind of those who are so fundelmentalist in their beliefs thye are willing to blow themselves up! :confused:
 
Actually that makes a lot of sense in a way. If everyone knows everyone else is armed then the jihadist is less likely to try something. That is the same reason crime goes down in areas where concealed weapon permits are easier to obtain. A heavily armed America is a much safer America.


Sorry but this makes no sense at all. If that were true up here in the Great White North would have much higher crime rates than you do in the US.
 
umm,,, because he runs a much higher risk of being permanetly stopped before he completes his mission.

Oh please....it takes a split-second to detonate a bomb. It's not as if the jihadist is routing fuses and a plunger. If the X-Mas day bomb detonated properly it would have been too late for anyone to react.

Did anyone ever see that NBC report on people actually reacting when in the face of danger.
Basically they found out that all these pistal packing people were of very little help and quite a few actually hurt themselves. Even with a gun, the reaction time it took for the "average joe" to figure out what was going on and then not panick and then actually get into gear was really amazing.

Maybe that's why when some one does it we call them a hero. Throwing 300 people on a plane with guns and thinking the jihadist are now going to be scared may be a bit fanciful.
 

I must say, that Yemen terrorist group must be elated and bewildered at the American response to this failed terrorist attempt. I imagine their initial response was “Drat, all our idiot guy managed to do was set his crotch on fire. We will be laughing stocks to our fellow terrorists”.

However, as they watch the international news or scan the internet, they must realize that they ‘won’ in not only winning attention to their particular group but in frightening the bejeebers out of Americans. They must be watching in bewilderment as the American press and people (including the President) talk about what must be done to prevent these people from making another attempt and how new procedures, etc., must be implemented.

Meanwhile, as American focus on how to prevent another idiot from setting his pants on fire on board an airplane (which I realize could cost the lives of several hundred passengers if successful), thousands of cargo ships enter our ports each year, unloading more than 20 million crates every year, of which only a small sample are inspected. Someday one of those crates will be filled with SAMs (that can be used to blow airplanes out of the air as they take off or land at airports) or even more dangerous weapons. Our municipal water supplies are essentially unprotected, and our electrical grid system is subject to disruption by hackers, as well as our electronic banking system. Railroads are likewise unsecured.

Who knows? Maybe this airplane incident was part of a larger plan to divert our attention from some other upcoming attack, from a completely different direction.
 
These's been a reat series of articles in our local paper about airport security.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/747279--airport-security-starts-in-the-parking-lot

Scanners are definitely NOT the answer. Adding more gadgets for unskilled security guards doesn't make you any safer, it just delays you more.

The main point of this series of articles, which i agree with, is that we need to screen the personality, not the person. Hire trained professionals as security staff that can weed out the bad guys not from staring at an Xray machine for 8 hours, but studying a persons habits, personality, non-verbal signals that may show a higher tendancy to be up to something.

Our civil rights and privacy is being taken away, and we're not any safer for it.
 
I think the system should be used but by saying the images are automatically deleted leaves a problem. If they are automatically deleted, how will courts have proof that the suspected person did or did not break airline rules and bring liquid, etc, through security. If the image is kept for any amount of time there will be some way to get the other images. I have my doubts to be honest.
This information is not required to be submitted to the court because thier is no probable cause requirement to do a passenger search.
If you do indeed pop a hole in a airplane, which frangible ammo will NOT DO, it is not like the Airplane movie.
First, you are again incorrect. Frangible bullets are not magic. They can (and have) puncture an aircraft's skin.

Second, whether the puncturing of the aircraft's skin leads to catastrophic failure depends on many things. It may or may not happen.
And Barney only had one bullet, mine will hold 8.:)
Mine holds 13, but still doesn't belong on an aircraft.
... Everyone knows our enemy in this country is the muslim extremists so I think they all should be checked.
There's a few problems with the statement.

First, muslim extremests are not our only 'enemy'. Non-muslim extremists have killed plenty of Americans.

Second, all muslims are not extremeists. Going after all muslims because of the acts of a few is like going after all christians simply because Timothy McVeigh was one.

Third, the second you decided to only look at muslims, they will start traveling as non-muslims. In fact, they already do this, so that isn't going to work. Surely, you are not going to single out all black, white, and middle eastern-looking passengers.
I must say, that Yemen terrorist group must be elated and bewildered at the American response to this failed terrorist attempt. I imagine their initial response was “Drat, all our idiot guy managed to do was set his crotch on fire. We will be laughing stocks to our fellow terrorists”.

However, as they watch the international news or scan the internet, they must realize that they ‘won’ in not only winning attention to their particular group but in frightening the bejeebers out of Americans. They must be watching in bewilderment as the American press and people (including the President) talk about what must be done to prevent these people from making another attempt and how new procedures, etc., must be implemented.
Should we not implement procedures to stop this type of attack?
Meanwhile, as American focus on how to prevent another idiot from setting his pants on fire on board an airplane (which I realize could cost the lives of several hundred passengers if successful), thousands of cargo ships enter our ports each year, unloading more than 20 million crates every year, of which only a small sample are inspected. Someday one of those crates will be filled with SAMs (that can be used to blow airplanes out of the air as they take off or land at airports) or even more dangerous weapons. Our municipal water supplies are essentially unprotected, and our electrical grid system is subject to disruption by hackers, as well as our electronic banking system. Railroads are likewise unsecured.
Why can't we work to stop both the crotch bombers and the SAM importers?
These's been a reat series of articles in our local paper about airport security.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/747279--airport-security-starts-in-the-parking-lot

Scanners are definitely NOT the answer. Adding more gadgets for unskilled security guards doesn't make you any safer, it just delays you more.

The main point of this series of articles, which i agree with, is that we need to screen the personality, not the person. Hire trained professionals as security staff that can weed out the bad guys not from staring at an Xray machine for 8 hours, but studying a persons habits, personality, non-verbal signals that may show a higher tendancy to be up to something.
That article did not make the case against technological improvements, it made the case for increased behavioral screening. There's no reason that both cannot be done.
Our civil rights and privacy is being taken away, and we're not any safer for it.
People keep stating that use of the body scanner is somehow taking away their rights. I've asked a number of those people to explain what rights were being taken, and they have not done so.

Can you please tell me which of your civil rights would be impeded upon by the use of this equipment?
 
Not to be Larry logical but when those 90% - 97% of people committed their first felony were they not felony free?

In order to commit a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or Xth felony you first have to commit a first felony. If that first felony was committed with a gun it could have very well been registered.

There is also the problem with state laws. The airspace over a state would be subject to the laws of that state. If you take off from a city that doesn't allow ccw and fly over any that don't you wouldn't be able to have the weapon anyway. In the least it would have to be locked in the cargo hold, the equivalent of the trunk of the car, and would be pretty useless against a threat while down there.

It would probably be moot anyway because even in a ccw state, at least the one I live in, a private business can keep you from carrying, even if licensed, on their property. I imagine even if it were allowed the airlines would keep you from carrying on their private property, the plane.

Airspace is Federal, so it wouldn't matter what state you were over. What you say would be true of trains, however. On traines, the bar has to stop serving alcohol if they enter a "dry" county, and back in the days of segregation, when a train entered a state with segregation laws, any African American passengers on board had to move to the whatever train car was reserved for them.

But you're right, even if Federal law allowed guns on a plane (which will NEVER happen so I don't know why we're debating it, other than as an intelectual exercise, perhaps) the airlines would never allow it on their aircraft. I can't even imagine the liability...
 
Can you please tell me which of your civil rights would be impeded upon by the use of this equipment?

Do I REALLY have to explain this? Really? Strip searching everyone in public isn't in your opinion violating your rights? I guess you think it's okay to wire tap your phone or monitor your internet usage without a warrant, all in the name of terrorism. Or child pornography, or some other made up reason just to take another level of privacy away from you.

If carrying guns was the answer, the US would be a much safer place than here in Canada. Just yesterday there was another guy that went postal in St Louis. Rarely does it happen here.
 
Do I REALLY have to explain this? Really? Strip searching everyone in public isn't in your opinion violating your rights? I guess you think it's okay to wire tap your phone or monitor your internet usage without a warrant, all in the name of terrorism. Or child pornography, or some other made up reason just to take another level of privacy away from you.

If carrying guns was the answer, the US would be a much safer place than here in Canada. Just yesterday there was another guy that went postal in St Louis. Rarely does it happen here.


Calling an x-ray scan a strip search is QUITE the stretch.
 
Do I REALLY have to explain this? Really? Strip searching everyone in public isn't in your opinion violating your rights? I guess you think it's okay to wire tap your phone or monitor your internet usage without a warrant, all in the name of terrorism. Or child pornography, or some other made up reason just to take another level of privacy away from you.
  1. No one is being strip searched.
  2. Even if this was comparable with a strip search, the search isn't being done 'in public'. It is being done in a tiny room with only one person in it. Heck, the person being 'searched' isn't even present.
  3. All security searches made at the airport are 100% voluntary, therefore no rights are violated.
  4. The comparison to wire tapping a home is not apt. It is more like if you telephoned the gov't and then were shocked that they heard what you said over the phone.
 
alamode said:
Strip searching everyone in public isn't in your opinion violating your rights?
Simple math: A discrete/secure room far from the security checkpoints = NOT PUBLIC
A scanner that displays an unidentifiable image of the potential passenger through the clothing without removing the clothing = NOT STRIP SEARCH
NOT PUBLIC + NOT STRIP SEARCH = NO CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATION
 
Not public + not strip search + 100% voluntary = nothing to see here (or there)
 
Do I REALLY have to explain this? Really? Strip searching everyone in public isn't in your opinion violating your rights? I guess you think it's okay to wire tap your phone or monitor your internet usage without a warrant, all in the name of terrorism. Or child pornography, or some other made up reason just to take another level of privacy away from you.

If carrying guns was the answer, the US would be a much safer place than here in Canada. Just yesterday there was another guy that went postal in St Louis. Rarely does it happen here.

Wow, how did we get from xrays to strip searches to child pornography?
We're still talking about flying right?
 
I guess I will try to answer the question about what ‘rights’ are being violated.

Say you wish to fly from DFW to NYC. You purchase a ticket from American Airlines, a private corporation. You go out to the airport to catch your flight.

Now, in order to board your flight, you must first be searched by personnel of the Transportation Security Administration: a federal government agency.

There is no ‘probable cause’ to search you. The government has stated, however, via laws and regulations, that if you, a private citizen of the United States, wish to board a flight on an airplane you must first submit to searches.

In the early days of flight there was no searching of the body. After the hijackings of the late 1960s and early 1970s the government mandated that metal detectors be installed at all US airports, and that you pass through said metal detector in order to board your flight. Over the years more and more invasive procedures have been placed, all in the name of public safety.

As time goes by, your right to purchase a ticket from a private corporation and use their product (i.e., flying) is being slowly curtailed. Some have spoken of a person having no ‘right to fly’. I am not sure what they mean. I think they confuse it with ‘no right to drive an automobile’, which is, after all different. You are not trying to fly the airplane, but you are hiring American Airlines to fly you to your destination.

True, you may choose to not fly and so not be subjected to any search at all. However, when the government puts such restrictions on people that people choose not to fly, that is interference with the airlines right to operate a business.

Mind, the government relies on the Interstate Commerce Clause as the basis for mandating that you, and the airlines, obey all Federal laws and regulations. However, even if you desired to fly completely within your state, you must still abide by these rules.

There is also the strange fact that once you enter the security area of an airport that you literally give up most Constitutional rights. Once you are in the ‘secured’ area you are subject to even more searches, if the TSA employees wish to. Again, no ‘probable cause’ is needed. You may be stripped –searched and even prevented from leaving the secured area, if you declare that you have changed your mind and do not wish to fly (a Ninth Circuit decision, United States v. Aukai). That Court stated, in part, that airport screening searches are no longer considered a matter of implied consent; they are ‘regulatory’ searches (a huge, huge change in thinking, although the Supreme Court has not addreseed this yet).

So I look at this issue two ways: the right of a private business to carry on its business without undue government interference, and the right of a citizen to conduct business with said business. I only wish to fly to New York City: I do not wish to be probed and humiliated in order to do so. I also do not want to see the airlines driven out of business.
 
I guess I will try to answer the question about what ‘rights’ are being violated.

Say you wish to fly from DFW to NYC. You purchase a ticket from American Airlines, a private corporation. You go out to the airport to catch your flight.

Now, in order to board your flight, you must first be searched by personnel of the Transportation Security Administration: a federal government agency.

There is no ‘probable cause’ to search you. The government has stated, however, via laws and regulations, that if you, a private citizen of the United States, wish to board a flight on an airplane you must first submit to searches.

In the early days of flight there was no searching of the body. After the hijackings of the late 1960s and early 1970s the government mandated that metal detectors be installed at all US airports, and that you pass through said metal detector in order to board your flight. Over the years more and more invasive procedures have been placed, all in the name of public safety.

As time goes by, your right to purchase a ticket from a private corporation and use their product (i.e., flying) is being slowly curtailed. Some have spoken of a person having no ‘right to fly’. I am not sure what they mean. I think they confuse it with ‘no right to drive an automobile’, which is, after all different. You are not trying to fly the airplane, but you are hiring American Airlines to fly you to your destination.

True, you may choose to not fly and so not be subjected to any search at all. However, when the government puts such restrictions on people that people choose not to fly, that is interference with the airlines right to operate a business.

Mind, the government relies on the Interstate Commerce Clause as the basis for mandating that you, and the airlines, obey all Federal laws and regulations. However, even if you desired to fly completely within your state, you must still abide by these rules.

There is also the strange fact that once you enter the security area of an airport that you literally give up most Constitutional rights. Once you are in the ‘secured’ area you are subject to even more searches, if the TSA employees wish to. Again, no ‘probable cause’ is needed. You may be stripped –searched and even prevented from leaving the secured area, if you declare that you have changed your mind and do not wish to fly (a Ninth Circuit decision, United States v. Aukai). That Court stated, in part, that airport screening searches are no longer considered a matter of implied consent; they are ‘regulatory’ searches (a huge, huge change in thinking, although the Supreme Court has not addreseed this yet).

So I look at this issue two ways: the right of a private business to carry on its business without undue government interference, and the right of a citizen to conduct business with said business. I only wish to fly to New York City: I do not wish to be probed and humiliated in order to do so. I also do not want to see the airlines driven out of business.
Your argument doesn't make the case that the individual passenger's rights are being violated. It makes the case that the rights of the airlines might be being violated. I suppose that the airlines will take appropriate action if they agree with you. I suspect that they will not because they do not.

Also, I believe that you misunderstand when people say that we don't have a 'right to fly'. 'Flying' in this sense, is not driving the airplane, it's merely being transported by an airplane. No person has the constitutional right to be flown. Traveling by air is, in fact, a luxury that many of us choose to do. If we do not wish to suffer the inconveniences and indignities of air travel, we can choose to travel in another manner.
 
Your argument doesn't make the case that the individual passenger's rights are being violated. It makes the case that the rights of the airlines might be being violated. I suppose that the airlines will take appropriate action if they agree with you. I suspect that they will not because they do not.

Bosh. You are just arguing for argument's sake. If you don't think that being subject to strip searches after entering a secured area is not under the 'rights' umbrella, well.....
 
Do I REALLY have to explain this? Really? Strip searching everyone in public isn't in your opinion violating your rights? I guess you think it's okay to wire tap your phone or monitor your internet usage without a warrant, all in the name of terrorism. Or child pornography, or some other made up reason just to take another level of privacy away from you.

If carrying guns was the answer, the US would be a much safer place than here in Canada. Just yesterday there was another guy that went postal in St Louis. Rarely does it happen here.

One thing I always find interesting is how people look at the exact same thing and each one sees something totally, completely different.

Public strip searches? Where? I may want to go take a look! :rotfl2:

And now this is considered child porn? :lmao:

I guess I just don't see what you are seeing and I am not even slightly worried about my privacy being invaded and my civil rights being stepped on.
 
I guess I will try to answer the question about what ‘rights’ are being violated.

Say you wish to fly from DFW to NYC. You purchase a ticket from American Airlines, a private corporation. You go out to the airport to catch your flight.

Now, in order to board your flight, you must first be searched by personnel of the Transportation Security Administration: a federal government agency.

There is no ‘probable cause’ to search you. The government has stated, however, via laws and regulations, that if you, a private citizen of the United States, wish to board a flight on an airplane you must first submit to searches.

In the early days of flight there was no searching of the body. After the hijackings of the late 1960s and early 1970s the government mandated that metal detectors be installed at all US airports, and that you pass through said metal detector in order to board your flight. Over the years more and more invasive procedures have been placed, all in the name of public safety.

As time goes by, your right to purchase a ticket from a private corporation and use their product (i.e., flying) is being slowly curtailed. Some have spoken of a person having no ‘right to fly’. I am not sure what they mean. I think they confuse it with ‘no right to drive an automobile’, which is, after all different. You are not trying to fly the airplane, but you are hiring American Airlines to fly you to your destination.

True, you may choose to not fly and so not be subjected to any search at all. However, when the government puts such restrictions on people that people choose not to fly, that is interference with the airlines right to operate a business.

Mind, the government relies on the Interstate Commerce Clause as the basis for mandating that you, and the airlines, obey all Federal laws and regulations. However, even if you desired to fly completely within your state, you must still abide by these rules.

There is also the strange fact that once you enter the security area of an airport that you literally give up most Constitutional rights. Once you are in the ‘secured’ area you are subject to even more searches, if the TSA employees wish to. Again, no ‘probable cause’ is needed. You may be stripped –searched and even prevented from leaving the secured area, if you declare that you have changed your mind and do not wish to fly (a Ninth Circuit decision, United States v. Aukai). That Court stated, in part, that airport screening searches are no longer considered a matter of implied consent; they are ‘regulatory’ searches (a huge, huge change in thinking, although the Supreme Court has not addreseed this yet).

So I look at this issue two ways: the right of a private business to carry on its business without undue government interference, and the right of a citizen to conduct business with said business. I only wish to fly to New York City: I do not wish to be probed and humiliated in order to do so. I also do not want to see the airlines driven out of business.

You state your case very well Solicitor; however, I believe the courts would decide that this interference does not constitute undue interference in the airlines right to carry on their business.
 
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