Marathon Weekend 2016

[DopeyBadger]

My October, finally figured out how to get totals from garmin.

Mileage - 160.38 miles
Time - 21:51 hrs
Avg Pace - 8:10 min/mile

Although that is on treadmill and likely getting 5% over estimate from my garmin, so more accurate distance and pace would be 150 miles, 8:36 pace.

I'm currently at the halfway point of the training plan, but I started it 2 weeks too early and so I will have to add a couple of weeks before, or during, the taper period to get me lined up with the Dopey.

I'm also having to revise my goals from a sub 3:45 (my training plan) to sub 4:15 because the plan is now starting to get hard. I can meet all of the fast pace midweek runs but the long runs are not going so well...I'm actually doing them wrong, or I was. I've been running them at near goal pace and end up walking a lot...like 20 minutes of a 14 mile run, for example. This week is an 18 miler and I'll try the slower pace (9:30 min/mile) but I expect to have to walk even some of that. Sigh...I suck at this right now.

Agree with @LSUlakes and @opusone , doing some long runs with a fast finish is good (maybe once every 3 weeks) but the majority of the running should stay away from goal marathon pace and be much slower. According to the Hansons pacing chart, a goal 3:45 marathon has a Long Run pace of 9:14 min/mile, and a goal of 4:15 marathon has a Long Run pace of 10:29 min/mile. Personally, I do most of my goal marathon pace runs on Thursdays (building from 6 miles up to 10 miles during the schedule with 3 total miles of WU/CD on each) per the Hansons plan.

Interestingly enough, during my last improvement of 42 min off my PR (from 4:20 down to 3:38) the most I ran the actual marathon pace (8:21) during training was 3 miles consecutively. I was training for a 8:35 min/mile so most of my GMP training was around there. The second half of my marathon was at 8:04 min/mile and the most I had run that was for 1 mile consecutively during training. I strongly believe there is something to be said for doing most of your running at much siower than goal marathon pace. Currently, reading this article about 80/20 running (which Hansons also seems to be in line with) http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm.

 

[Z-Knight]

Agree with @LSUlakes and @opusone , doing some long runs with a fast finish is good (maybe once every 3 weeks) but the majority of the running should stay away from goal marathon pace and be much slower. According to the Hansons pacing chart, a goal 3:45 marathon has a Long Run pace of 9:14 min/mile, and a goal of 4:15 marathon has a Long Run pace of 10:29 min/mile. Personally, I do most of my goal marathon pace runs on Thursdays (building from 6 miles up to 10 miles during the schedule with 3 total miles of WU/CD on each) per the Hansons plan.

Interestingly enough, during my last improvement of 42 min off my PR (from 4:20 down to 3:38) the most I ran the actual marathon pace (8:21) during training was 3 miles consecutively. I was training for a 8:35 min/mile so most of my GMP training was around there. The second half of my marathon was at 8:04 min/mile and the most I had run that was for 1 mile consecutively during training. I strongly believe there is something to be said for doing most of your running at much siower than goal marathon pace. Currently, reading this article about 80/20 running (which Hansons also seems to be in line with) http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm.

Holy cow, I don't see that happening for me...if I break 4hrs at this point I'll be ecstatic, even though I've been trying to train for the sub 3:45. I guess we'll see in 2 months.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Holy cow, I don't see that happening for me...if I break 4hrs at this point I'll be ecstatic, even though I've been trying to train for the sub 3:45. I guess we'll see in 2 months.

Trust me when I say, after my 4:55 marathon in May I wasn't sure I'd ever break 4 hours either. If you don't mind me asking what's a recent half-marathon finishing time? It's a good gauge of current fitness level. Hansons training paces guidelines suggests a 1:48 half for a 3:45 marathon and a 2:02 half for a 4:15 marathon (https://runningcowgirl.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/photo-50.jpg).

 

[Z-Knight]

Mine was the Dumbo half in sept with 1:52 ...the last three miles were awful for me, with a 9:00 min pace and I lost sight of the 1:50 hr pacer.

In 2 weeks I'll have another half, but I'm not expecting a good time because it is a back and forth across a bridge.

 

[roxymama]

Totally unrelated..but maybe related to the current conversation in case she is the one to eventually break the 2.00 marathon in 2031
My daughter just turned 3 and had her checkup today and measured at almost 41" and in the 94% for height. No shocker because her dad and uncle are incredibly tall. So I guess its good I did the honest thing and bought her 3 year old tickets instead of having her pass for 2.
So now I'm contemplating FP strategy if she will be game for either Barnstormer or Big Thunder.

Weird question that is related to the conversation. How old are all the record breakers at the time of record breaking? Just wondering at what point in a person's life (for the elites) do they start going after these records (by moving to certain climates/altitudes for training/getting sponsored, etc etc etc.) Just something I had not thought about much.

 

[LSUlakes]

Totally unrelated..but maybe related to the current conversation in case she is the one to eventually break the 2.00 marathon in 2031
My daughter just turned 3 and had her checkup today and measured at almost 41" and in the 94% for height. No shocker because her dad and uncle are incredibly tall. So I guess its good I did the honest thing and bought her 3 year old tickets instead of having her pass for 2.
So now I'm contemplating FP strategy if she will be game for either Barnstormer or Big Thunder.

Weird question that is related to the conversation. How old are all the record breakers at the time of record breaking? Just wondering at what point in a person's life (for the elites) do they start going after these records (by moving to certain climates/altitudes for training/getting sponsored, etc etc etc.) Just something I had not thought about much.

Without doing any real research, I believe 25-30 years and maybe upwards to 35. Marathoners tend to reach full potential at an older age when compared to races of shorter distances.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Totally unrelated..but maybe related to the current conversation in case she is the one to eventually break the 2.00 marathon in 2031
My daughter just turned 3 and had her checkup today and measured at almost 41" and in the 94% for height. No shocker because her dad and uncle are incredibly tall. So I guess its good I did the honest thing and bought her 3 year old tickets instead of having her pass for 2.
So now I'm contemplating FP strategy if she will be game for either Barnstormer or Big Thunder.

Weird question that is related to the conversation. How old are all the record breakers at the time of record breaking? Just wondering at what point in a person's life (for the elites) do they start going after these records (by moving to certain climates/altitudes for training/getting sponsored, etc etc etc.) Just something I had not thought about much.

Here is the Runner's World article about what it will take to be sub-2hr marathon.

http://rw.runnersworld.com/sub-2/

The article states the person will likely be in their early 20s.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Mine was the Dumbo half in sept with 1:52 ...the last three miles were awful for me, with a 9:00 min pace and I lost sight of the 1:50 hr pacer.

In 2 weeks I'll have another half, but I'm not expecting a good time because it is a back and forth across a bridge.

Based on this, ideally you would train for a 3:55 marathon. This is a good sign because this means that your 4 hour goal is well within reach like it was for me (I just didn't know it).

My advice - This would mean most of your training (80% of the time spent training) should be between 9:38 min/mile to 11:28 min/mile. The other 20% is spent at goal marathon pace or slightly faster (8:48 min/mile) to learn running efficiency techniques. There's not much time between now and Disney (10 weeks) but if you started to slow down your training and increase the time spent on weekdays to between 60-90 minutes and weekends no longer than 3 hours I think you could meet the goal of 4 hours and potentially feel comfortable doing it. Of course other factors other than training will play a role (nutrition and weather being the main culprits).

 

[opusone]

Weird question that is related to the conversation. How old are all the record breakers at the time of record breaking? Just wondering at what point in a person's life (for the elites) do they start going after these records (by moving to certain climates/altitudes for training/getting sponsored, etc etc etc.) Just something I had not thought about much.

Since the late 1990's, the ages (at time of world record performance) of the marathon world record holders have been as follows...
Females: anywhere from 25-30, with most falling in the 29-30 age range
Males: anywhere from 26-35, with most in the 30-34 age range

 

[Z-Knight]

Based on this, ideally you would train for a 3:55 marathon. This is a good sign because this means that your 4 hour goal is well within reach like it was for me (I just didn't know it).

My advice - This would mean most of your training (80% of the time spent training) should be between 9:38 min/mile to 11:28 min/mile. The other 20% is spent at goal marathon pace or slightly faster (8:48 min/mile) to learn running efficiency techniques. There's not much time between now and Disney (10 weeks) but if you started to slow down your training and increase the time spent on weekdays to between 60-90 minutes and weekends no longer than 3 hours I think you could meet the goal of 4 hours and potentially feel comfortable doing it. Of course other factors other than training will play a role (nutrition and weather being the main culprits).

I get what you are saying but those paces are super slow for me. Like drastically slow for me. I wouldn't feel like I was achieving anything or even getting fitter. If anything I need to run at the faster paces so I can try to push my workouts to lose some of this extra weight faster. Obviously for the long runs I'll try for the slower pace - around 9:15 min/mile - that should be doable and with fewer walk breaks.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

I get what you are saying but those paces are super slow for me. Like drastically slow for me. I wouldn't feel like I was achieving anything or even getting fitter. If anything I need to run at the faster paces so I can try to push my workouts to lose some of this extra weight faster. Obviously for the long runs I'll try for the slower pace - around 9:15 min/mile - that should be doable and with fewer walk breaks.

Believe it or not, easy runs have to be easy or your legs don't get stronger from one week to the next. You limit yourself if you run too many fast miles each week. Max, 25% of your mileage each week should be "fast", that includes all types of speed work and GMP runs. Every coach that I have worked with has stressed this to me because when I am not coached, I fall into the same trap. I don't feel like I am "working" if I run a 10:00 mile. It just feels too easy. Well, it is supposed to.

The limited speed work produces all of the results required to run faster. The rest of the work is just for endurance. Faster is not better on those runs - it is worse.

 

[Keels]

I get what you are saying but those paces are super slow for me. Like drastically slow for me. I wouldn't feel like I was achieving anything or even getting fitter. If anything I need to run at the faster paces so I can try to push my workouts to lose some of this extra weight faster. Obviously for the long runs I'll try for the slower pace - around 9:15 min/mile - that should be doable and with fewer walk breaks.

Have you consulted with a medical professional about that? Dropping weight too quickly without replacing supporting muscle mass and then forcing your body to continuously work harder without rest or failure can really do damage - especially to your heart, among other things.

 

[roxymama]

Here is the Runner's World article about what it will take to be sub-2hr marathon.

http://rw.runnersworld.com/sub-2/

The article states the person will likely be in their early 20s.

Thanks for posting that article...very interesting read. Wondering how many people under the age of 18 have the marathon distance even on their radar when the real money for college is in track at shorter distances right. I would think at the younger ages you are chasing college scholarships? I'm completely not an elite distance runner though so totally don't know exactly what I'm talking about.
And by 2031+ will the pool of 5'6" really athletic males be dwindling...I feel like my kiddo will be 5'6" by the time she is 8. (joking...but maybe not totally.)

 

[Z-Knight]

Have you consulted with a medical professional about that? Dropping weight too quickly without replacing supporting muscle mass and then forcing your body to continuously work harder without rest or failure can really do damage - especially to your heart, among other things.

No i havent per se, but I was at the doctor after my weight loss a few months ago just to get an overall physical. I was worried that my heart rate dropping down to 45 resting was really low. They said I'm good so I've not been concerned about it since. Still fat, but good overall - If only these last few hundred pounds would come off then I'd be great....ok, ok, 20 lbs more or so.

 

[Z-Knight]

Believe it or not, easy runs have to be easy or your legs don't get stronger from one week to the next. You limit yourself if you run too many fast miles each week. Max, 25% of your mileage each week should be "fast", that includes all types of speed work and GMP runs. Every coach that I have worked with has stressed this to me because when I am not coached, I fall into the same trap. I don't feel like I am "working" if I run a 10:00 mile. It just feels too easy. Well, it is supposed to.

The limited speed work produces all of the results required to run faster. The rest of the work is just for endurance. Faster is not better on those runs - it is worse.

These make sense when smart people say it to me, but for me it just seems counter intuitive...and I am a Rocket Scientist (Houston), so you'd think I could accept the science.

 

[Keels]

No i havent per se, but I was at the doctor after my weight loss a few months ago just to get an overall physical. I was worried that my heart rate dropping down to 45 resting was really low. They said I'm good so I've not been concerned about it since. Still fat, but good overall - If only these last few hundred pounds would come off then I'd be great....ok, ok, 20 lbs more or so.

That's good - I just read things like pushing yourself so hard to lose weight and it makes me nervous.

We had a longtime co-worker drop dead of a heart attack two years ago. He was in the best shape of his life - had dropped nearly 180 pounds in like a year. But it was really all heavy cardio, starving himself and nothing else. Needless to say, he basically ran himself in to a heart attack trying to lose weight.

 

[Z-Knight]

That's good - I just read things like pushing yourself so hard to lose weight and it makes me nervous.

We had a longtime co-worker drop dead of a heart attack two years ago. He was in the best shape of his life - had dropped nearly 180 pounds in like a year. But it was really all heavy cardio, starving himself and nothing else. Needless to say, he basically ran himself in to a heart attack trying to lose weight.

I appreciate the concern. Sad to hear about your co-worker. I was probably pushing like that in the first 3 months of this year, but have since reduced it - which is why the weight has not gone down. But I'm also trying not to push to hard for fear of hurting myself befors the race - I say that and yet I was still trying to do long runs at pace....dopey!!!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

I get what you are saying but those paces are super slow for me. Like drastically slow for me. I wouldn't feel like I was achieving anything or even getting fitter. If anything I need to run at the faster paces so I can try to push my workouts to lose some of this extra weight faster. Obviously for the long runs I'll try for the slower pace - around 9:15 min/mile - that should be doable and with fewer walk breaks.

Oh trust me, when I started doing the training at 9:39 min/mile to 11:01 min/mile I felt like I was going way slower than I needed to. How can I possibly run a 9:09 min/mile marathon when all of my training is in the slower range (I said to myself)??? But over time, I started to notice how much easier running at the faster paces became when most of my training was in the slower paces. It completely sounds counterintuitive but I was willing to take a leap of faith because I wanted to break that 4 hour barrier no matter what. Now after that and where this training has taken me I can at least see a 3 hour marathon as being somewhat, slightly, not completely impossible, tiniest chance of coming to fruition goal. It has to do with what happens to your body at different individual paces and what certain areas of physiological changes occur. The marathon is a 99% endurance event. The endurance training zone for you based on Hansons comes from the 9:39-11:28 min/mile area.

However, I will say based on your low resting heart rate (42) and age (40) you have a ridiculously high estimated VO2max (66). This gives an estimated best possible marathon time of 2:32!!! Have you ever gotten your VO2max tested or have another number based on some other measurement? There seems to be a large disconnect between your current fitness level and this estimated VO2max.

 

[Z-Knight]

Oh trust me, when I started doing the training at 9:39 min/mile to 11:01 min/mile I felt like I was going way slower than I needed to. How can I possibly run a 9:09 min/mile marathon when all of my training is in the slower range (I said to myself)??? But over time, I started to notice how much easier running at the faster paces became when most of my training was in the slower paces. It completely sounds counterintuitive but I was willing to take a leap of faith because I wanted to break that 4 hour barrier no matter what. Now after that and where this training has taken me I can at least see a 3 hour marathon as being somewhat, slightly, not completely impossible, tiniest chance of coming to fruition goal. It has to do with what happens to your body at different individual paces and what certain areas of physiological changes occur. The marathon is a 99% endurance event. The endurance training zone for you based on Hansons comes from the 9:39-11:28 min/mile area.

However, I will say based on your low resting heart rate (42) and age (40) you have a ridiculously high estimated VO2max (66). This gives an estimated best possible marathon time of 2:32!!! Have you ever gotten your VO2max tested or have another number based on some other measurement? There seems to be a large disconnect between your current fitness level and this estimated VO2max.

I've never had it tested, only what my Garmin 620 tells me (50.0 VO2max). I don't know how accurate it is and it hasn't been updated since Sep because I've only had a couple outside short races and it still says 50.0. I think I can make it higher if I follow your fueling strategy because I know for sure my pre-race fueling was either low or non-existent in some cases. Usually for short races it doesnt have to be but for the longer ones it will definitely give me a boost.

 

[Z-Knight]

Btw, running or training at that slower pace I think is basically akin to running at a lower heart rate. And this concept of training I have read about and lots of people support so I'll have to stop being pig headed about it.