Laws that cover cruising question.

[Snowwhyt]

• When ships are required to stop at foreign ports, Must there be a plan for people to get off the ship in order for it to count as a foreign port stop?

• What if CM’s/Staff (say 10 if we were picking social distancing amounts) were allowed to leave and handle supplies or entertainment changes? Would that count as a port stop for the law?

• I would be willing to travel on a short term cruise since I find Disney entertaining. Could the three night and four night cruises be viable as an alternative if a “Look don’t touch” policy could be used. (Look at the port, but don’t touch/walk the land)

• Anyone think at least it’s something over nothing? Many will not be interested but some might find it safer is some way.

Please don’t “flame” me for thinking outside the box. The question here is whether it would be feasible to do the above and not a question of it’s being recommended.

 

[FigmentSpark]

Well, you wouldn't be physical distancing on the ship or if you were, it probably wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

• When ships are required to stop at foreign ports, Must there be a plan for people to get off the ship in order for it to count as a foreign port stop?

• What if CM’s/Staff (say 10 if we were picking social distancing amounts) were allowed to leave and handle supplies or entertainment changes? Would that count as a port stop for the law?

• I would be willing to travel on a short term cruise since I find Disney entertaining. Could the three night and four night cruises be viable as an alternative if a “Look don’t touch” policy could be used. (Look at the port, but don’t touch/walk the land)

• Anyone think at least it’s something over nothing? Many will not be interested but some might find it safer is some way.

Please don’t “flame” me for thinking outside the box. The question here is whether it would be feasible to do the above and not a question of it’s being recommended.

From what I understand, to "count" as a port stop, the ship must dock, and present papers to "enter" the country legally. I don't think anyone HAS to get off the ship to make it legal, only that the ship is cleared to enter the country.

That's what some cruise lines used to do to comply with the "must stop at foreign port" requirement for west coast/Hawaii cruises. They would pull into Ensenada, tie up, present papers, and, once cleared, haul up lines and leave - generally a 2-4 hour stop.

I believe that's been changed, and ships have to stay a minimum amount of time (not sure how long - maybe 6 hours?) before departing for it to count.

Most cruise ships do not resupply at port stops. Entertainment might switch out during a port stop, but entertainment personnel don't count toward passenger requirements.

 

[FightingIrishman]

I could hypothetically see Disney have cruises only to Castaway Cay, but...

You have to remember if one person comes down with COVID19 on the ship, everyone will be at risk, as the disease can spread prior to symptoms showing.

Even with precautions like taking guest temperatures and/or rapid COVID19 tests, the cruise line runs the risk of having a boat full of infections. (pun intended)

 

[LAX]

I could hypothetically see Disney have cruises only to Castaway Cay, but...

You have to remember if one person comes down with COVID19 on the ship, everyone will be at risk, as the disease can spread prior to symptoms showing.

Even with precautions like taking guest temperatures and/or rapid COVID19 tests, the cruise line runs the risk of having a boat full of infections. (pun intended)

To be fair, those that willingly choose to cruise nowadays are likely those that are considered "low risks." Hence, an infected person may *not* necessarily become a medical emergency (I know it's not always the case). Even if there is a cluster of infections before it's detected, many of these low risks individuals will likely survive the infection statistically. However, of greater concerns (at least to me) is how the ship will be handled when there is a suspected positive case. We have certainly seen a few recent examples, so is that what's to be expected (to be turned away from port to port)? That's not even considering how the passengers can return home after disembarking from such a ship.

LAX

 

[Snowwhyt]

Well, you wouldn't be physical distancing on the ship or if you were, it probably wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

I’m sure just like America social distancing has changed our lives in home towns, so will cruising change. But really the question was about the law and what is possible.

From what I understand, to "count" as a port stop, the ship must dock, and present papers to "enter" the country legally. I don't think anyone HAS to get off the ship to make it legal, only that the ship is cleared to enter the country.

That's what some cruise lines used to do to comply with the "must stop at foreign port" requirement for west coast/Hawaii cruises. They would pull into Ensenada, tie up, present papers, and, once cleared, haul up lines and leave - generally a 2-4 hour stop.

I believe that's been changed, and ships have to stay a minimum amount of time (not sure how long - maybe 6 hours?) before departing for it to count.

Most cruise ships do not resupply at port stops. Entertainment might switch out during a port stop, but entertainment personnel don't count toward passenger requirements.

I’m thinking getting supplies could be an additional money making incentive to allow the ship to enter a port.
I would like to hear more about that former Hawaii sailing ship and why it stopped.

I could hypothetically see Disney have cruises only to Castaway Cay, but...

You have to remember if one person comes down with COVID19 on the ship, everyone will be at risk, as the disease can spread prior to symptoms showing.

Even with precautions like taking guest temperatures and/or rapid COVID19 tests, the cruise line runs the risk of having a boat full of infections. (pun intended)

I’m concerned that with anti-vaccination crowd and those unable to be vaccinated for medical reasons. This may always be a thing. Even with vaccinations there is still a risk of reinfection. The Bahamas only have 56 cases in total. Just one person with Covid is a huge deal to them. So what’s plan B?
So I wanted to look at ideas to plan for the worst and hope for the best. I don’t want to see the Wish docked for her first 6 months.

But my intention here is to examine the options available for travel, if ports are closed to Visiting ships with American travelers.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

I would like to hear more about that former Hawaii sailing ship and why it stopped.

Which ship?

 

[Snowwhyt]

That's what some cruise lines used to do to comply with the "must stop at foreign port" requirement for west coast/Hawaii cruises. They would pull into Ensenada, tie up, present papers, and, once cleared, haul up lines and leave - generally a 2-4 hour stop.

Which ship?

....the one you mentioned above?

 

[PrincessShmoo]

....the one you mentioned above?

I said that cruise lines used to just stop at Ensenada for a minimum amount of time in order to meet the "must call at foreign port" requirement. I didn't say any specific ship.

That requirement has been changed to say a minimum amount of time is required at the foreign port for it to meet the foreign port requirement.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I could hypothetically see Disney have cruises only to Castaway Cay, but...

They would still need the permission of the Bahamas to do that.

To answer the broader question, the applicable law requiring a foreign port is the PVSA. A closed loop needs to call at ANY foreign port. A point to point must call at a distant foreign port. So, this is why they cannot do a Hawaii to San Diego cruise, as Central America doesn't qualify for distant under the law. (ie, no to Ensenada).

NCL actually created a subsidiary to hold its US flagged ships for Hawaii cruises. Prior to that, they'd do a 4 day legal run to Fanning Atoll to get their "foreign port."

CMs/Staff are not passengers under law, and their movements do not satisfy PVSA requirements.

Actual passengers must have a legitimate opportunity to go ashore in the foreign port. If a passenger cannot get off and set foot on the foreign shore, it is not a valid PVSA foreign port stop.

A “cruise to nowhere” is not considered coastwise transportation under the PVSA, and is allowed. A true cruise to nowhere does not dock ANYWHERE but the start/finish port, and is closed-loop.

 

[Snowwhyt]

• When ships are required to stop at foreign ports, Must there be a plan for people to get off the ship in order for it to count as a foreign port stop?

.... a minimum amount of time is required at the foreign port for it to meet the foreign port requirement.

So you are saying “Yes, the law allows a ship to arrive at a port for “X-hours” and meet foreign requirements”
Excellent!!! That’s what I was hoping could happen.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

So you are saying “Yes, the law allows a ship to arrive at a port for “X-hours” and meet foreign requirements”
Excellent!!! That’s what I was hoping could happen.

That's assuming that the foreign ports will allow the ship in, of course. There's really no money in it for the port, if no one goes ashore to buy things, so why would they allow it?

I honestly doubt that a cruise line will sell cruises that only just stop at foreign ports to meet the legal requirements that don't allow anyone off.

I'll also point out that I'm not an expert on maritime laws. Just what information I've gathered during my time cruising.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

If a passenger cannot get off, the port does not meet the foreign port requirement. This has been established in administrative law.

 

[Snowwhyt]

They would still need the permission of the Bahamas to do that.

Just looking at the numbers, America has 600,000 cases of coronavirus and the Bahamas have 56. Smh, I would not allow it if I was responsible for their people.

Just now an image flashed in front of my mind...
Consider a nice smile on a casual Friday dressed man. And he gives a great belly laugh, after a ship with American travelers ask him if they can play in the sand for a few hours.

I definitely agree with you we should ask. If they don’t let us on the island, I totally understand. I’m just hoping they would let us park there while we had an amazing deck party.

 

[Snowwhyt]

If a passenger cannot get off, the port does not meet the foreign port requirement. This has been established in administrative law.

That’s exactly what I was asking! So it’s a No. Bummer. I’m the kind of person where if it’s the only day I can visit a amusement park that year and most of the rides will be closed because of rain, I’m not gonna go home a day early I’ll try and make the best of my rainy day at the park.
I took my 5 year old to Epcot at rope-drop in our stroller, I have a disability and it was helpful to me as well. It started raining in under an hour and never stopped once! I remember putting baggies over her socks inside her wet shoes because her feet stuck out of the stroller and we couldn’t keep them dry. Really warm rain too.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I definitely agree with you we should ask.

Should ask? No. Legally, Disney must ask. Castaway is leased from the Bahamas and is subject to Bahamian jurisdiction and laws for docking. If the Bahamas say no cruise ships, that includes Castaway Cay. Disney don't get to make the decision. This is why Disney was not allowing certain foreign nationals to disembark at CC for some of the last voyages of the Fantasy or Dream before shutdown - it wasn't legal for them to allow it while the Bahamas has a ban on visitors from China, Iran, Italy, South Korea, United Kingdom, Ireland and Europe.

Officially the Bahamas hasn't banned docking. Just allowing anyone from the above countries off, and if any of the major cruise lines starts up again, they're likely to ban Americans too.

 

[clten]

A “cruise to nowhere” is not considered coastwise transportation under the PVSA, and is allowed. A true cruise to nowhere does not dock ANYWHERE but the start/finish port, and is closed-loop.

It may be allowed per PVSA but in 2016 US Customs changed requirements and cruises to Nowhere are no longer allowed from US ports.

 

[Mainsail Minnie]

I don't see the appeal of doing a Bahamian cruise that doesn't let you spend the day at Castaway Cay, so the legal requirement is a moot point imo. And I imagine a lot of other DCL cruisers feel the same way.

 

[DisneyWishes14]

I'll just throw in that it's also up to the US authorities if any ships even embark or disembark from US ports (see recent CDC orders) and, if they can sail from US ports, but not dock in certain foreign ports, what is the market for that? And could DCL book enough guests to make it worth their while, financially, to sail the ship? I'm sure the cruise lines are crunching the numbers every which way to see how they can make cruising profitable again, but is there really a big enough market to simply sail from PC to CC if allowed? It costs so much money to operate these ships!

 

[Mainsail Minnie]

I'll just throw in that it's also up to the US authorities if any ships even embark or disembark from US ports (see recent CDC orders) and, if they can sail from US ports, but not dock in certain foreign ports, what is the market for that? And could DCL book enough guests to make it worth their while, financially, to sail the ship? I'm sure the cruise lines are crunching the numbers every which way to see how they can make cruising profitable again, but is there really a big enough market to simply sail from PC to CC if allowed? It costs so much money to operate these ships!

There is definitely a market for Castaway Cay-only cruises (I've sailed on two of them), but not if guests can't actually get off at and enjoy Castaway Cay.