Kids Kicked out of School for Wearing American Flag Tshirts

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

What gave you that impression, though? I didn't see anything in the article that indicated they were diplaying hubris rather than patriotism.

for me, it is about the fact that they all got together and planned it for this specific day. I may be wrong but I get an "in your face" or "we'll show them" kind of vibe from that. Also, I am thinking the principal knows them and knew what they were all about - in order for him to react that way first thing in the morning. Either that - or it is my original impression that he was way over reacting. Who knows really.

My point though really, again, was IF they intended to stir up trouble, or be in your face or denigrating....then that is hubris. I have nothing against positive pride...but that doesn't need to put others down or show one up above the other. THAT is hubris.

 

[Holly]

Personally, I think wearing the actual Mexican Flag over your shoulders is much more incendiary than a t-shirt with a screen printed American Flag, even on Cinco de Mayo.

It's not if both flags are celebrated, with the flag of the United States of America being shown the proper respect; ie, given precedence over any other country's flag.

However, that was not the case here. The Mexican Flag was allowed, but representations of the American Flag were not.

So, since the Mexican-American students wanted to wear the flag of their heritage, yet demanded the denial of the wearing of the flag of their country and citizenship, this can be seen as more incendiary. They are subtly saying that the Mexican Flag takes precedence over the flag of the United States of America.

Obviously, the school district, which knows way more about the incident than any of us, agrees and is investigating and taking appropriate actions.

Where did the Mexican-American students demand the denial of the American flag? I thought we were talking about the actions of one man?

Both flags do NOT have to be celebrated in order for it not to be "incendiary".

Go to any Italian-American, Irish-American, Polish-American, etc. celebration and you won't see very many American flags.

Does it cross your mind when you see this that they are being disrespectful to the United States?

 

[EMom]

I do know that it galls me that Texas schools seem afraid to honor San Jacinto Day (battle that gained independence from Mexico) these days for fear of offending anyone, yet they will make a to-do over Cinco de Mayo. Someone's priorities are way off. Personally, I thank God every day that we won that battle as I read about the border violence.

If my child was sent home for wearing a US flag t-shirt, my family would be the ones getting an apology. The day a student is reprimanded for wearing such a shirt, is the day we officially live in Bizarro World. But then, since having students chanting,"MEXICO! MEXICO!" while carrying Mexican flags seems to be perfectly fine in US schools (yes, I've seen it) then I think we're already living in one messed up country.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

Where did the Mexican-American students demand the denial of the American flag? I thought we were talking about the actions of one man?

Both flags do NOT have to be celebrated in order for it not to be "incendiary".

Go to any Italian-American, Irish-American, Polish-American, etc. celebration and you won't see very many American flags.

Does it cross your mind when you see this that they are being disrespectful to the United States?

you are correct - and very good point about the other flags

it was just the actions of one man...the Mexican students merely expressed their feelings after the fact when they were being interviewed.

the Mexican students did not complain ahead or cause the principal to take the action,

 

[DawnCt1]

Yes, of course they are, but the kids are trying to say, by wearing those shirts, that they aren't really American, and that we shouldn't recognize the holiday.

I think it's ridiculous not to call them American just because they weren't born in the US, Mexico is in North AMERICA. People from South AMERICA are American as well.[/QUOTE]

While you are 'correct' geographically, by custom, we all KNOW what being an American means. If one immigrates here legally and becomes a naturalized citizen, they too are considered Americans. Most people from Mexico refer to themselves as Mexicans, not North Americans, the same is sure of those from South America, however I don't think that they would refer to themselves as "South Americans" but as Colombians, Argentineans, Chileans, Brazilians, etc.

 

[Kim&Chris]

I do know that it galls me that Texas schools seem afraid to honor San Jacinto Day (battle that gained independence from Mexico) these days for fear of offending anyone, yet they will make a to-do over Cinco de Mayo. Someone's priorities are way off. Personally, I thank God every day that we won that battle as I read about the border violence.

If my child was sent home for wearing a US flag t-shirt, my family would be the ones getting an apology. The day a student is reprimanded for wearing such a shirt, is the day we officially live in Bizarro World. But then, since having students chanting,"MEXICO! MEXICO!" while carrying Mexican flags seems to be perfectly fine in US schools (yes, I've seen it) then I think we're already living in one messed up country.

I totally agree.

To me, this would be like asking Muslim students to remove their scarves on the anniversary of 9/11. It would never happen, and this should have never happened.

 

[Scurvy]

for me, it is about the fact that they all got together and planned it for this specific day. I may be wrong but I get an "in your face" or "we'll show them" kind of vibe from that. Also, I am thinking the principal knows them and knew what they were all about - in order for him to react that way first thing in the morning. Either that - or it is my original impression that he was way over reacting. Who knows really.

My point though really, again, was IF they intended to stir up trouble, or be in your face or denigrating....then that is hubris. I have nothing against positive pride...but that doesn't need to put others down or show one up above the other. THAT is hubris.

I can understand that. And I can agree that it would be rude to use the flag as an "in your face" kind of thing. But I didn't necessarily get that impression - I could see them thinking they're just as proud of their country as other people are of Mexico, and that they'd rather celebrate their own country than a different one.

Regardless, I do agree with Lisa Loves Pooh that in the end, their motivation doesn't really matter. Maybe they were being patriotic, or maybe they were showing hubris. Or maybe they were showing support for the harsher laws aimed at illegal immigrants which the Mexican government is protesting (in which case it could have been more of an "in your face" at the Mexican government rather than something aimed at their fellow students). If they were following the rules of the school (which they apparently were) and they weren't behaving badly (which there's no indication that they were) then it doesn't really matter why they were wearing the shirts.

It doesn't matter why the other kids were wearing the Mexican flag, either. Maybe they are proud of their heritage. Maybe they were showing solidarity with illegal immigrants or protesting the Arizona law. Maybe they like Mexico better than the US. It doesn't matter, since they apparently weren't breaking any rules, either.

Since both groups of kids were apparently complying with the school rules, both groups should have been allowed to wear what they chose. It was inappropriate for the kids with the American flags to be disciplined based on their possible motives or the possible reactions of their fellow students, especially since no one else can know what their motivations really were.

 

[nmmom95]

I totally agree.

To me, this would be like asking Muslim students to remove their scarves on the anniversary of 9/11. It would never happen, and this should have never happened.

That is a great point.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

I can understand that. And I can agree that it would be rude to use the flag as an "in your face" kind of thing. But I didn't necessarily get that impression - I could see them thinking they're just as proud of their country as other people are of Mexico, and that they'd rather celebrate their own country than a different one.

Regardless, I do agree with Lisa Loves Pooh that in the end, their motivation doesn't really matter. Maybe they were being patriotic, or maybe they were showing hubris. Or maybe they were showing support for the harsher laws aimed at illegal immigrants which the Mexican government is protesting (in which case it could have been more of an "in your face" at the Mexican government rather than something aimed at their fellow students). If they were following the rules of the school (which they apparently were) and they weren't behaving badly (which there's no indication that they were) then it doesn't really matter why they were wearing the shirts.

It doesn't matter why the other kids were wearing the Mexican flag, either. Maybe they are proud of their heritage. Maybe they were showing solidarity with illegal immigrants or protesting the Arizona law. Maybe they like Mexico better than the US. It doesn't matter, since they apparently weren't breaking any rules, either.

Since both groups of kids were apparently complying with the school rules, both groups should have been allowed to wear what they chose. It was inappropriate for the kids with the American flags to be disciplined based on their possible motives or the possible reactions of their fellow students, especially since no one else can know what their motivations really were.

I agree!

the only thing I can think of is the Principal knew what was coming and he was trying to head off trouble. However, his actions were probably presumptive and he probably should have not asked for them to remove the shirts based only on that. It really is HIS assumptions that are important here though and he would more than likely know. Maybe, if he thought they were up to trouble, he could have simply pulled them in and gave them a warning not to tart anything...not asked to remove the shirts, that are, as mentioned, well in the code!

 

[Mickey's Minion]

Where did the Mexican-American students demand the denial of the American flag? I thought we were talking about the actions of one man?

Both flags do NOT have to be celebrated in order for it not to be "incendiary".

Go to any Italian-American, Irish-American, Polish-American, etc. celebration and you won't see very many American flags.

Does it cross your mind when you see this that they are being disrespectful to the United States?

The Mexican-American students demanded the denial of the American Flag simply by causing fear in the administration that campus unrest would happen if the flag of the United States was worn on a day they were wearing the flag of the Mexican Government.

Due to causing fear in the administration that the campus would not be safe if the American Flag was represented, by their actions, demanded that the flag of the United States of America not be represented on Cinco de Mayo.

You are correct in that both flags do not have to be celebrated in order for it to not be incendiary. However it is incendiary when one flag is permitted to be worn and the flag that represents this country is strictly forbidden. Especially when the flag of the US is forbidden because the administration is scared of the Mexican-American students (their words - feared campus safety) and what might happen if somebody wore patriotic clothing, whether it was one person or a large group.

Obviously the district agrees and sent out a very clear statement that the administration of the high school was not only wrong, an investigation was taking place and appropriate actions will be undertaken.

I may not see many American Flags at Italian-American, Polish-American, etc celebrations, however, at none of these celebrations is the flag of the United States of America forbidden to be shown due to fear of unrest.

There is a HUGE difference in not actually having the flag present and actually forbidding representations of the Flag of the United States of America.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

The Mexican-American students demanded the denial of the American Flag simply by causing fear in the administration that campus unrest would happen if the flag of the United States was worn on a day they were wearing the flag of the Mexican Government.

Due to causing fear in the administration that the campus would not be safe if the American Flag was represented, by their actions, demanded that the flag of the United States of America not be represented on Cinco de Mayo.

You are correct in that both flags do not have to be celebrated in order for it to not be incendiary. However it is incendiary when one flag is permitted and the flag that represents this country is strictly forbidden. Especially when the flag of the US is forbidden because the administration is scared of the Mexican-American students (their words - feared campus safety) and what might happen if somebody wore patriotic clothing, whether it was one person or a large group.

Obviously the district agrees and sent out a very clear statement that the administration of the high school was not only wrong, an investigation was taking place and appropriate actions will be undertaken.

I may not see many American Flags at Italian-American, Polish-American, etc celebrations, however, at none of these celebrations is the flag of the United States of America forbidden to be shown due to fear of unrest.

There is a HUGE difference in not actually having the flag present and actually forbidding representations of the Flag of the United States of America.

source? you got anything to back that up or is it just your assumption about what went on????

as far as I can tell, other students were allowed to wear the flag shirts - only this one group was asked to take them off - it isn't like there was an actual ban on them.

 

[DawnCt1]

The Mexican-American students demanded the denial of the American Flag simply by causing fear in the administration that campus unrest would happen if the flag of the United States was worn on a day they were wearing the flag of the Mexican Government.

Due to causing fear in the administration that the campus would not be safe if the American Flag was represented, by their actions, demanded that the flag of the United States of America not be represented on Cinco de Mayo.

You are correct in that both flags do not have to be celebrated in order for it to not be incendiary. However it is incendiary when one flag is permitted to be worn and the flag that represents this country is strictly forbidden. Especially when the flag of the US is forbidden because the administration is scared of the Mexican-American students (their words - feared campus safety) and what might happen if somebody wore patriotic clothing, whether it was one person or a large group.

Obviously the district agrees and sent out a very clear statement that the administration of the high school was not only wrong, an investigation was taking place and appropriate actions will be undertaken.

I may not see many American Flags at Italian-American, Polish-American, etc celebrations, however, at none of these celebrations is the flag of the United States of America forbidden to be shown due to fear of unrest.

There is a HUGE difference in not actually having the flag present and actually forbidding representations of the Flag of the United States of America.

Eloquently stated!

 

[Holly]

I may not see many American Flags at Italian-American, Polish-American, etc celebrations, however, at none of these celebrations is the flag of the United States of America forbidden to be shown due to fear of unrest.

There is a HUGE difference in not actually having the flag present and actually forbidding representations of the Flag of the United States of America.

I agree with this.

Based on the information we have now, I also agree that the punishment was inappropriate. Even if that particular group of students had bad intentions, any discipline should have been based upon any actions and not the shirts.



I also think that we need to be careful of our words and that we are careful not to condemn the Mexican-American students. Intolerance of this group is at a peak already and they are not to blame for the actions of one man.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

I agree with this.

Based on the information we have now, I also agree that the punishment was inappropriate. Even if that particular group of students had bad intentions, any discipline should have been based upon any actions and not the shirts.



I also think that we need to be careful of our words and that we are careful not to condemn the Mexican-American students. Intolerance of this group is at a peak already and they are not to blame for the actions of one man.

but Holly, others were allowed to wear their shirts - if I read the article correctly. There is a quote about how the Mexican Americans felt as a result of the "group" and Others that wore the shirt. Also, there is no mention of anyone else - outside this group - being asked to remove their flag shirts.

AS an aside - Another bit of evidence that it really wasn't about the shirts, but about this particular group of individuals and what the Principal perceived to be their intent......

 

[Mickey's Minion]

source? you got anything to back that up or is it just your assumption about what went on????

as far as I can tell, other students were allowed to wear the flag shirts - only this one group was asked to take them off - it isn't like there was an actual ban on them.

Well, at least 5 students were forbidden to wear a representation of the flag of the United States of America.

Additionally, other students (other than the 5 boys) were quoted as saying that the student body was asked not to wear clothing with representations of the flag of the US on Cinco de Mayo so as not to start fights between the two groups. I will find the article that quoted them and add the link.

These 5 boys were forbidden to wear the shirts due to the administration fearing the actions of some of the Mexican-American student body. They were forbidden because they were a group and not a single individual.

Forbidden is forbidden, whether it is one student, a group of 5 or the entire student body.

 

[Holly]

but Holly, others were allowed to wear their shirts - if I read the article correctly. There is a quote about how the Mexican Americans felt as a result of the "group" and Others that wore the shirt. Also, there is no mention of anyone else - outside this group - being asked to remove their flag shirts.

AS an aside - Another bit of evidence that it really wasn't about the shirts, but about this particular group of individuals and what the Principal perceived to be their intent......

If that's the case- I still think the punishment is inappropriate.

If the punished students were displaying prejudice (in ways having nothing to do with the shirts), why use the removal of the shirts as punishment?

 

[Scurvy]

According to this article, Fagerstrom said the parents met with an assistant superintendent Wednesday evening who wanted to hear all the sides. At an earlier meeting, Principal Nick Boden and Rodriguez indicated to her that they were worried about the safety of the five American-flag boys. "They said they heard from some students there was going to be some drama,'' Fagerstrom said. That makes it sound like the principal didn't think that they boys wearing the American flags were the trouble makers. It sounds like they thought the other students were the ones who were going to be starting trouble. If that's the case, it's really sad that the principal felt it was necessary to discipline these students in order to protect them from possible violence by the students who were the real problem.

 

[Mickey's Minion]

I agree with this.

Based on the information we have now, I also agree that the punishment was inappropriate. Even if that particular group of students had bad intentions, any discipline should have been based upon any actions and not the shirts.

I also think that we need to be careful of our words and that we are careful not to condemn the Mexican-American students. Intolerance of this group is at a peak already and they are not to blame for the actions of one man.

That is very true. However, the Mexican-American students are not doing themselves any favors and helping to alleviate the intolerance when 200 leave the high school and stage a march chanting that they want respect.

They are escalating it from the actions of one man to now a representation of the Mexican-American student body. Now six police cars and a motorcycle officer are involved.

http://www.gilroydispatch.com/news/...arch-through-downtown-morgan-hill-for-respect

About 200 Hispanic teens are marching in Morgan Hill yelling "We want respect!" and "Si se puede!" in reaction to a controversy ignited when the Live Oak High School principal effectively sent four students home for wearing T-shirts with American flags on them during Cinco de Mayo.

Mexican-American students felt the students were being disrespectful on the only day they celebrate their heritage while students sporting red, white and blue said it violated their First Amendment rights.

Six police cars and a Morgan Hill motorcycle officer have been cruising alongside the large group as it marches.

The group - mostly high school students - walked out of school this morning after the story of four students who were sent home because they wore American flag T-shirts went viral on TV and online. Many wear red, white and green and two large Mexico flags can be seen at the front of the line.

The students say they want people to know they're proud of their heritage and they believe wearing red, white and blue on Cinco de Mayo is disrespectful. (bolding mine)

Many of the students are from Live Oak High School, who left school around 11 a.m. this morning and decided to march to the school district headquarters just north of Tennant Avenue. When they arrived, they were told to leave
.
.
.

Telling citizens of the US that it is disrespectful to wear red, white and blue on Cinco de Mayo fosters intolerance as it should never, ever be disrespectful to wear red, white and blue in the United States of America on any day of the year. One can easily celebrate both cultures. You do not have to exclude one to have respect for the other.

The students are demanding that people not wear red, white and blue in this country on one day, saying it is disrespectful?? Let's face it, US citizens are a proud group. And when another group tells them it is disrespectful to be a US citizen, even for one day, it is going to raise hackles.

I said it in one of my earlier posts, it is really a shame that it is a small group of vocal, radical Mexican-Americans that is causing so much intolerance for the majority of the people of this incredibly rich and beautiful culture.

Again, people would laugh their heads off if the Germans demanded no wearing of red, white and blue during Oktoberfest or the Poles demanded no wearing of red, white and blue on their holidays. What if our Chinese citizens demanded no wearing of red, white and blue during the Chinese New Year?

Cultures should be celebrated, however, not by asking others to exclude the culture of the country they are in.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

Well, at least 5 students were forbidden to wear a representation of the flag of the United States of America.

Additionally, other students (other than the 5 boys) were quoted as saying that the student body was asked not to wear clothing with representations of the flag of the US on Cinco de Mayo so as not to start fights between the two groups. I will find the article that quoted them and add the link.

These 5 boys were forbidden to wear the shirts due to the administration fearing the actions of some of the Mexican-American student body. They were forbidden because they were a group and not a single individual.

Forbidden is forbidden, whether it is one student, a group of 5 or the entire student body.

if you have proof...I'd like to see it.

There is a difference between asking them not to out of deference and forbidding. Did the Mexican Americans actually threaten harm? I don't see where a peaceful protest ashing for respect is setting anything back. They aren't asking for it to be forbidden - I just think they know the attitude of those who would PURPOSELY wear them to make a statement (again one of hubris and not pride), and are asking for respect in that light. I doubt they would have a problem with someone wearing the flag with no ulterior motives......there is more here than simply wearing the American flag out of pride. The more I hesr of this situation, the more convinced I am.

only one group was actually asked to remove them...and there are far more possibilities than simply because they were a group. If it was forbidden - then why wasn't everyone asked to remove them - I am not buying the group thing.

and further, some were allowed to wear the shirts and yet there was no trouble from the Mexican American students. Sounds like a scape goat - especially after reading the above posted by Scurvy - a scapegoat to get the Principal off the hook and make him look better by making the Mexican Americans look bad....

if they were sooooo concerned about the safety of these five - why not the others?????

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

According to this article, Fagerstrom said the parents met with an assistant superintendent Wednesday evening who wanted to hear all the sides. At an earlier meeting, Principal Nick Boden and Rodriguez indicated to her that they were worried about the safety of the five American-flag boys. "They said they heard from some students there was going to be some drama,'' Fagerstrom said. That makes it sound like the principal didn't think that they boys wearing the American flags were the trouble makers. It sounds like they thought the other students were the ones who were going to be starting trouble. If that's the case, it's really sad that the principal felt it was necessary to discipline these students in order to protect them from possible violence by the students who were the real problem.

If true--it is shameful on so many levels.