Just wondering what you think

kristen821

DIS Veteran<br><font color=blue>Everything taste b
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Mar 28, 2004
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I know this is probably going to start the flaming, but does anyone else feel that Americans need to stop putting down our president. I don't agree with everything that he does at all, but I feel that Americans are hated world wide. I don't think it helps that everytime you turn around you see anti-Bush bumper stickers, anti-Bush protest, anti-Bush news and radio, etc. I just think we would be liked more worldwide if Americans weren't so antipresident. Stuff like this has been going on as long as I remember. It doesn't matter who the president is. It doesn't matter if they are democrat or republican. It just seems like everything is antipresident.
 
It is a tough quandary. The problem with that line of reasoning though is that it would tend to embolden those who would seek office to exert the power of the office to their personal aims, without regard to their responsibility to the rest of us. It is widely believed that, to a great extent, America is hated more because this President has done just that.

I do believe there are contexts within which support for the President should be expected. A difference of political perspective shouldn't be a reason to demonize, for example. Reasonable people can disagree about many important issues, and as long as the President respects the fact that the "other side" is also made up of reasonable people, and as long as the President isn't practicing tyranny, then I see no reason for people to "attack" the President.

However, illegal acts, tyranny, disrespect for minority perspectives -- all these things are grievious wrongs when committed by a President, and I cannot assert that such a President deserves protection from such criticism.
 
Everyone hates Americans even more these days because of our president.

I don't get it. It was okay to hate Clinton and bash him up one side and down the other. I remember a lot of hating going on while he was in office. Why are so many people so rabid to protect Bush?
 
Marseeya said:
Everyone hates Americans even more these days because of our president.

I don't get it. It was okay to hate Clinton and bash him up one side and down the other. I remember a lot of hating going on while he was in office. Why are so many people so rabid to protect Bush?


I don't think it was right to bash Clinton either. I don't think it is really right to bash any president.
 

Both Clinton and Bush did things so outrageous that they each became worthy of the disrespect. Clinton violated our social mores by breaking his vow of fidelity to his wife. That earned him the disrespect he received. The only difference between Clinton's violations and Bush's is that Bush's actually harm the nation, so perhaps will be longer-lasting as a result.
 
If you believe people shouldn't speak out against a leader, then what should the consequences be for doing so?
 
Marseeya said:
If you believe people shouldn't speak out against a leader, then what should the consequences be for doing so?

Maybe 1.elections every other year instead of every 4 years. I think that is when our opinions actually do matter 2.Throw out that whole electoral vote process and have it done strictly on popular vote 3. Don't have a limit to the number of years a president can be president. If we end up with a wonderful president why get rid of him in 8 years also, that last 4 years of being the president they have nothing to lose as long as they don't go to overboard. I think the media should be able to state facts, but I don't think opinions should be broadcasted.
 
I'm not sure if I agree with your #1, because it might be impossible logistically, but I certainly agree with your #2 & 3.
 
The problem with more frequent elections is that it would tend to prevent any progress whatsoever. The four year term of the President is considered to be one of the strongest aspects of the American system, and only not followed in other nations where there is too much distrust between the different factions. I suppose the way things have been going in recent years, the level of distrust has indeed been increasing, very quickly, so it may seem like such a radical Constitutional change is warranted. I would think that would be a shame though -- I'd far rather work to rebuild the trust that has been lost rather than abandon such an important aspect of our system.

Regarding changing the electoral process, I don't think that's a real significant issue. It was random chance that it slid one way versus the other in the recent election, and there is no reason to think that it tends to slide one way or the other more often, so much as to warrant changing it. I cannot make an argument to keep the electoral system, though, other than the fact that it doesn't need to be changed.

The term limit for the President is essential to avoid the tyranny I mentioned earlier. In this day-and-age of charisma-over-substance, our system needs even greater protections against leaders who sell one thing and then surreptitiously pursue other aims. We have a bunch of discussions on these boards wherein members bemoan all the aspects of our commercial marketplace that puts them at a disadvantage. We see complaints about how companies can change their prices day-to-day, and even from person-to-person, based on market intelligence. There are so many ways, legal and proper, for companies to maximize their profit at the expense of the consumer, and many consumers feel aggrieved. What is remarkable is how few of these consumers realize how these practices are a reflection of the policies of the President they themselves voted into office. That's because they voted for that President due to a few other issues, not realizing how much that election would adversely affect their life otherwise. (Of course, to be honest, it is those aspects of this President's policies that I personally support most -- it's the rest of his shenanigans that I disagree with. :))

Finally, regarding the media's right to present opinion: That's yet-another fundamental aspect of America's strength. The freedom of the press was never intended to protect solely the Fourth Estate's right to print uncontested facts, but has always been intended to protect the right of the press to advocate diverse perspectives for the population to consider.
 
Marseeya said:
I'm not sure if I agree with your #1, because it might be impossible logistically, but I certainly agree with your #2 & 3.


I don't feel as strongly on my #1 as my #2 and #3, but I do feel that nobody really knows the president until he is in office. If you get a really poor president I think 4 years is to long. If you get a great president 8 years is not enough time. Also, I think if they had elections every two years a president would have to work harder to keep his approval rates up, but I do see downfalls in having it every two years too. A president may need some time to prove himself and he would be alway working on his election debates instead of running the country, but then again if he was good he wouldn't have to work to hard on his debates he would be voted in again.
 
hi
what makes you think everybody hates america,the impression we get from the service industry is that a good many americans hate the u.k. whilst the u.k. are happy to bash france but love america, at grass roots level i really don't think people like or dislike a country because of it's head of state.
do i keep my head down now!!
 
susan1 said:
hi
what makes you think everybody hates america,the impression we get from the service industry is that a good many americans hate the u.k. whilst the u.k. are happy to bash france but love america, at grass roots level i really don't think people like or dislike a country because of it's head of state.
do i keep my head down now!!


Maybe we aren't as hated as the media makes us out to be. I have a friend who grew up in Spain. He is a citizen of America. He said the people in Spain hate Americans. Our media makes it seem we are hated everywhere, but who knows. Unfortunatly I haven't been out of the country except the bahamas, but they wanted my money so they couldn't have shown any hate towards me! I don't think any Americans hate the u.k. I am sorry if anyone made you feel that way.
 
These so called countries who "hate us" would also be amoung the first to seek our help if and or when they would ever need it.

Go figure that one out.


As far as the president... we have a right as Americans to be vocal in our opinion of our government without fear of retalliation. It would probably take me a really long time to come up with something bush has done that I agree with. Therefore I simply can not verbally support him. Does that make me less patriotic? NO! I love my country and the ideals it was created on... I simply do not love the man who has been elected President. He does not support my ideals or beliefs and I am not going to pretend he does.... as an American.. that is my right. :)

The fact that I do not support him has nothing to do with the way other countries view us (imo). Most of the citizens of these other countries aren't all that peachy keen on the Buckeroo either.
 
Which other countries hate us? Some of those countries hate us not because we do criticize our president, but because we can.

And even in those situations, I would wager that it is not the average citizen who "hates America" but certain political groups.

In any case, I am unwilling to give up my Constitutionally protected free speech in order to pander to some other nation, and their perception of us.
 
I feel uneasy about all of the Bush-bashing. The public news media are notoriously liberal and talk up negative aspects while ignoring or suppressing positive aspects. I hear some of the other side of the story when I listen to conservative radio talk programs.

But I defend the right of people to speak as they will. One great thing about this country is that people have the right to bash Bush all they wish to.

Nevertheless, I worry that our country may be becoming a point of ridicule by other countries when there is so much ant-Bush rhetoric around. I also worry that it is "the thing to do"- the popular pastime- to bash the President, and that some people may be doing it just because it is the popular thing to do, without actually researching and coming up with their own educated opinions. And when they go along and bash, then others are encouraged to do so. I don't have proof that this happens, but I worry that it could be the case.
 
What makes you think that it is the anti-Bush rhetoric that is causing the ridicule by other countries? I think it is more likely that the anti-Bush rhetoric is keeping the ridicule by other countries at a lower level than it would have been otherwise.
 
I think Americans need to respect our country first in order to get respect from other countries. When somebody visits and all they see is antipresident and antiamerica from us then they aren't going to respect America either. Why would they? I do believe in freedom of speech, but I think it needs to be more fact then opinions.
 
1.elections every other year instead of every 4 years.
This really wouldn't work. The president would only get 6 months of 'work' in, before they would have to begin putting their effort into a re-election campaign. It would be a neverending campaign season. That would be awful.

Maybe we aren't as hated as the media makes us out to be.
I don't believe we are much more hated then we ever have been worldwide. The Middle East has always 'hated' our freedom and way of life. New Europe has always 'hated' our 'superpower' status, and the lack of theirs'. Old Europe, well... They still like us. Not much has changed. People are louder about it, but thats basically it. I lived for 6 years in Switzerland, and got numorous anti-america comments and that was in the mid-90's - under Clinton. I have family in France, Germany and Switzerland, and spend quite a bit of time over there, and truthfully, cannot say that much has changed over the last 4 years.

I think it is more likely that the anti-Bush rhetoric is keeping the ridicule by other countries at a lower level than it would have been otherwise.
What is your theory for this?
 
I think Americans need to respect our country first in order to get respect from other countries.
The vast majority of Americans greatly respect our country. As a matter of fact, those that you were referring to in your earlier messages are among those that respect our country the most. Dissent is patriotic. It shows true concern for the principles of our country.

When somebody visits and all they see is antipresident and antiamerica from us then they aren't going to respect America either.
There is no reason to believe that that is the case, at all.

Why would they?
They will see a vibrant, strong people who are able to derive strength from their differences -- most thoughtful people of the world know that that is where America has always drawn its strength from.
 
chi_girl said:
This really wouldn't work. The president would only get 6 months of 'work' in, before they would have to begin putting their effort into a re-election campaign. It would be a neverending campaign season. That would be awful.


I don't believe we are much more hated then we ever have been worldwide. The Middle East has always 'hated' our freedom and way of life. New Europe has always 'hated' our 'superpower' status, and the lack of theirs'. Old Europe, well... They still like us. Not much has changed. People are louder about it, but thats basically it. I lived for 6 years in Switzerland, and got numorous anti-america comments and that was in the mid-90's - under Clinton. I have family in France, Germany and Switzerland, and spend quite a bit of time over there, and truthfully, cannot say that much has changed over the last 4 years.


What is your theory for this?



I agree with you on the reelection campaign. Unless they stopped all the campaigning and had a few debates that is all they need anyway. I too believe the hate on America hasn't changed much, but either have the antipresident protest and everything else that has been going on as long as I can remember.
 

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