Just saw Harry Potter 3 and have a major problem with one part.

[Elwood Blues]

During the movie, Hermione was "time traveling" so she could do more than one class at a time. Obviously she knew she was but the others didn't. Then, near the end, she revealed that to Harry. They went back in time to save that bird/horse creature and Sirius. They went to the lake as Harry and Sirius were being attacked by the Dementors. Harry thought it was his father that saved him. Hermione was the one that made the wolf cry to call off the ugly wolf off Sirius. It appeared that they Hermione and Harry were there before because Hermione was the one that threw the rocks at themselves while in the Hagred's house. She asked "why aren't we leaving"? If they hadn't gone back in time before how did she know to throw the rock and how did they end up at the other side of the lake to save Harry and Sirius the first time around? If Hermione remembered that she time traveled, why didn't Harry? Actually, neither one one them remembered that they went back to save Sirius and the bird/horse creature.

 

[phillybeth]

Well, time travel can be difficult
Harry and Hermione didn't know the first time what happened in their future at Hagrid's because the time travel was still in their future. Yes, with time travel you can go back and forth through time, but YOUR time and memories are still linear.

 

[kasar]

I think she threw the rock because she could see the Minister of Magic and the executioner coming. They were on the other side after they were chased by the werewolf, I believe. Why they don't remember - I'm not sure. I'll have to reread that part in the book.

My favorite part during that whole scene is when Hermione asks, "Is that really what my hair looks like from behind". So typical! It's all very confusing but I remember when I read the book it made a lot more sense. I'll have to reread the whole thing before Goblet of Fire comes out!

 

[Elwood Blues]

Well, time travel can be difficult
Harry and Hermione didn't know the first time what happened in their future at Hagrid's because the time travel was still in their future. Yes, with time travel you can go back and forth through time, but YOUR time and memories are still linear.

I agree that the time travelers memories would be linear but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

But disagree that time travel was still in their future. If that's the case, who threw the rocks, howled like a wolf and used the spell to ward off the Dementors?

 

[Elwood Blues]

I think she threw the rock because she could see the Minister of Magic and the executioner coming. They were on the other side after they were chased by the werewolf, I believe. Why they don't remember - I'm not sure. I'll have to reread that part in the book. [/b]

I know why she threw the rock the second time, but who threw it the first time? If she threw it the first time, we know it would have been a warning to get out because the executioner was coming. But the second time she asked "why aren't we leaving?" as if she knew that they were warned about the approaching executioner.

My favorite part during that whole scene is when Hermione asks, "Is that really what my hair looks like from behind". So typical!

I caught that too!

 

[kasar]

She didn't know who threw it either time. Even the second time she wondered why they weren't leaving but when she saw that little rock (snail?) she remembered getting hit and threw it. I'm not explaining it the right way - I know what I want to say but it's not coming out! Sorry. Let me sleep on it and maybe I can figure out how my brain is working tomorrow! LOL. Goodnight!

 

[phillybeth]

There was only ONE throw, not two. Hermione realized that SHE threw the shell into Hagrid's cottage to warn herself and Harry in their past that they needed to leave.

When Harry and Hermione were in Hagrid's hut, time travel was in their future. Then they went back, saw themselves at Hagrid's, Hermione made the wolf howl to get the werewolf away from Sirius, and Harry cast the Patronus to save himself and Sirius. In time travel terms they were 'looped', meaning they traveled back into their own pasts and in doing so affected their own futures.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Well... This still has me confused.

So how many times do you believe they "looped"?

IMO, it had to have been at least twice because the sequence of events are different between the first and the second.

What I'm getting at is the timeline as first presented in the movie appears to have been manipulated by someone from the future and then manipulated a second time which changed the outcome again because we now know who threw the rock and saved Harry and Sirius. I believe that the first timeline as presented in the movie is not the original timeline. Otherwise, they would have been caught in Hagred's hut and Harry and Sirius wouldn't have been saved.

 

[Imzadi]

In time travel terms they were 'looped', meaning they traveled back into their own pasts and in doing so affected their own futures.

In Star Trek, (and probably other SciFi,) this is called a temporal paradox. It's a paradox because the first time it had to have happened a certain way, but then when they loop around from the future to change or affect the 'present', it almost seems to cancel out the present occuring in that way. Because IF the future person is NEEDED in the present - to SAVE the present, how did it happen the FIRST time because the future hadn't happened yet, so s/he couldn't have come back to have changed things.

Like Harry seeing his father, but it really is himself coming back. Logically, the first time it happened, the dementers should have killed Sirius & himself because there WAS no future yet. But if he's dead, how did he get to the future to come back and save himself. And if he somehow saved himself the first time, well, he really didn't need himself to come back to save himself... THE PARADOX.

The first "Terminator" movie also has a temporal paradox as the guy who comes back to save Linda Hamilton turns out to be his grandson(?) or some such relation that couldn't have existed in the future until she gets pregnant to have her son. But then, who impregnates her the firsttime?!?

There is a theory in Quantum Physics, and Einstein believed this too: The Past, Present, & the Future are all happening simultaneously. Also, all: time, space and matter are all one & the same thing. In that theory, it is possible to easily change things since it all is the "same" anyways.

 

[PryncessChrysty]

Well... This still has me confused.

So how many times do you believe they "looped"?

IMO, it had to have been at least twice because the sequence of events are different between the first and the second.

What I'm getting at is the timeline as first presented in the movie appears to have been manipulated by someone from the future and then manipulated a second time which changed the outcome again because we now know who threw the rock and saved Harry and Sirius. I believe that the first timeline as presented in the movie is not the original timeline. Otherwise, they would have been caught in Hagred's hut and Harry and Sirius wouldn't have been saved.

I think you are reading too much into this. I don't see how the timelines are different or manipulated, or how it seems they "looped" more than once. If that were the case, I don't think they would have left something like that unexplained and I think a lot more people would be complaining about that.

When Harry & Hermione went through the first time, they didn't understand how the rocks were thrown or where the howl came from because it was their first time experiencing any of that. Hermione also tells Harry when they begin their time traval experience that it's VERY important that they aren't seen.
When they were in Hagrid's hut and the rocks (or shells, whatever they were) came through the window, Hermione picked one up and took a long look at it. It was after Hermione asked, "Why aren't we leaving?" while hiding in Hagrid's garden that she recognized that same rock and it was then she realized that it must've been thrown by themselves.
When Harry believed it was his father that saved himself & Sirius, he was waiting around the second time to see his father. When Harry realized his father wasn't coming, he stepped up and warded off the Dementors. He then realized that it was him all along.
These are things that effected the first experience, but they weren't aware of exactly what was going on until they lived through it their second time around.

Here's how I see it, and I think most others will agree: during their first experience, they are only aware of what is happening to them at that moment, but are effected by what is done during their time travel. Then after the second run through, they remember everything from both experiences, because they have now lived through both.
I'm sorry, I'm really not understanding where the confusion lies. It seems pretty clear to me.

 

[Sleepy]

Don't watch 12 Monkeys. Hubby and I watched it and we argued for over an hour about the whole *back in time* thing.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

In Star Trek, (and probably other SciFi,) this is called a temporal paradox. It's a paradox because the first time it had to have happened a certain way, but then when they loop around from the future to change or affect the 'present', it almost seems to cancel out the present occuring in that way. Because IF the future person is NEEDED in the present - to SAVE the present, how did it happen the FIRST time because the future hadn't happened yet, so s/he couldn't have come back to have changed things.

God bless you. This was great with my first cup o' coffee this morning.

HOWEVER.....the monkey wrench coming.....Hermoine did KNOW it was probably her that was interfering with the present. (I think this is when it happened..)If you remember they were hiding behind the pumpkins and she "thinks" she sees herself and says..."nothing". I have to watch it again but I do believe she did "know" according to the movie.

Also PS...possessing the ability "to" time travel is what makes the paradox.

 

[PryncessChrysty]

HOWEVER.....the monkey wrench coming.....Hermoine did KNOW it was probably her that was interfering with the present. (I think this is when it happened..)If you remember they were hiding behind the pumpkins and she "thinks" she sees herself and says..."nothing". I have to watch it again but I do believe she did "know" according to the movie.

I agree with your statement. But I believe that Hermione only "knew" because she thought she saw herself back in the trees and at that point she figured out that she'd be going back in time. I don't believe that she knew from the start that she would be doing that.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Yes, she did not know from the start. EB? Have we made our case with you? We Sci-Fi nuts can beat this one to death and enjoy it. This is why I wish I would have taken Physics in school.

DH and I had our "Matrix" theories and argued incessantly with others.

 

[Imzadi]

Yes, she did not know from the start. EB? Have we made our case with you? We Sci-Fi nuts can beat this one to death and enjoy it. This is why I wish I would have taken Physics in school.

DH and I had our "Matrix" theories and argued incessantly with others.

I agree with you & PryncessChrysty. It's probably a good thing I DIDN"T take Physics in HS. I would have drove my teacher nuts going back & forth on all the theories. He would never been able to have essay tests.

As for "Matrix", I had a weird incident yesterday with my cat. She meowed then shuttered. I felt a weird sensation like I had glimpsed at her in the future, like when she might be sick with tremors someday when she is older. Then, I thought, "No, maybe it was a moment of deja vu, and she skipped in time, a repeat, & that was the shutter."

Of course when I asked her about it, she just looked at me like I was nuts, and she had been there in the same space & time all along.

 

[disneygals]

I LOVE time-travel movies and books...Frequency, etc. Time Traveler's Wife is a good one. Do you experts kmow anymore? I also liked Sliding Doors with Gwyneth Paltrow, it's not time travel, but shows how your life can change with the smallest decision or event.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Well... I understand what y'all are saying but it's still confusing. I'm also one that is very fascinated with the effects of time travel on past and future timelines. I really liked Frequency as well.

Most of the time I end up scratching my head saying "WTH just happened there?".

 

[ladycollector]

I get the feeling that even though they time travelled after all the events, the things that they change merge into one universal time. All the time merges into one. Think of it as layers. They didn't change things that had already happened.. The chop the kids heard during Buckbeak execution was not Buckbeak being executed. It was the executor chopping a pumpkin. Timetravel Harry and Hermione had already saved him, while the kids were running up the hill. See how I am saying it all merges into the same time? Same thing when TimeTravel Harry and Hermione saved Sirius. He hadn't had his soul sucked out... yet. So when they saved him, they didn't change the past, they changed.. the future. Does that make sense? LOL

 

[The Mystery Machine]

See how I am saying it all merges into the same time? Same thing when TimeTravel Harry and Hermione saved Sirius. He hadn't had his soul sucked out... yet. So when they saved him, they didn't change the past, they changed.. the future. Does that make sense? LOL

Yes, I get the theory that all time will merge into one. SORT-OF...

I am recalling "Star Trek, Next Generation" when Worf was the only one on board the Enterprise who was not a time traveller or frankly I guess we can call it "dimensions", really. The layers you speak of. He kept bouncing between realities. Prior to the merging there is an infinite set of "possibilites or outcomes".

So really you are only "seeing" 1 dimension of the Harry-Hermione paradox. When she makes it back up to the room the "time travel gate" is closed ending the paradox. Things are set right in motion with the universe.

We could get into to "Dune" and talk about "folding space". Or how about "Back to the Future 2"?

 

[gometros]

One of my favorite time travel movies was The Final Countdown With Kirk Douglas and Martin Sheen. The Aircraft carrier Nimitx travels back in time to the day before the attack on Pearl Harbor. The movie deals with the rights and wrongs of whether or not the Nimitz should join the fight.