Just back from another MB tourney...Calling all experts...

[DisneySuiteFreak]

I had some trouble tonight. I decided to try to set my camera at 1600 ISO. I got some decent pics and some that turned out really bad at this ISO. I figured out that at the higher ISO, the shutter was too fast and causing some of my pics to turn out too dark. When I shoot, I use the cable remote and I just go for it. I figure the more I shoot of the better chance I'll get something good. I don't bother to look at the pics until the band is done. So at 1600 ISO I got shots like these:

Really Bad!!

Okay:

Getting worse:

Horrible

Somewhere along the way I got the bright idea to bump up the exposure.

Son's band:

This one was like the ones I shot @ 200 ISO, but was shot @ 1600;

So I finally said, fuggetaboudit, and went back down to 800ISO. Much better. A littler darker, but a lot more focused.

Any comments or critiques are welcomed. If you could tell me if I am correct about why the ISO 1600 pics weren't coming out right, I would appreciate that as well. I shot in Aperture priority so the camera was controlling the shutter speed.
Nothing different than the last tourney, except I bumped up the ISO and then bumped up the exposure a bit when I noticed the pics were coming out too dark. The lighting here was probably a little poorer as our previous tourney was at the Aloha Stadium which is very well lit from high above the action for all the ESPN televised events. This was a HS football field. You can even see where the lines are drawn crooked on some pictures. Almost all of my pics at 800iso turned out as good as the last time I posted photos.
Thanks!

 

[disphoto]

What camera body do you have? Could be noise at 1600 that you are seeing and saying are OOF. 800 is a better speed for many bodies to keep the noise down.

You are doing the best thing, trying different settings and taking lots of photos.

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

What camera body do you have? Could be noise at 1600 that you are seeing and saying are OOF. 800 is a better speed for many bodies to keep the noise down.

You are doing the best thing, trying different settings and taking lots of photos.

I have a D80 and was using the 70-300VR lens.

 

[jfulcer]

I figured out that at the higher ISO, the shutter was too fast and causing some of my pics to turn out too dark. When I shoot, I use the cable remote and I just go for it. I figure the more I shoot of the better chance I'll get something good. I don't bother to look at the pics until the band is done. So at 1600 ISO I got shots like these:

Your picture quality is going to depend on a lot of different things, including iso, how much light is in the stadium, how quickly they are marching, etc... The list is endless.

I think you need to monitor when you are taking the pictures to see what you are getting and modify while you are shooting, and not afterwards. Some of the darker photos can be helped with some post processing work, but I think what you are considering being out of focus is the grain showing at ISO1600. 800 is a much better choice - and maybe even 400. 400 might give you really good quality but with only a little motion blur - something that might look good in a marching band competition photo. Depends on your taste. At 400-800 you may not even need to use the shutter release. Might make it easier to monitor.

Unfortunately photography is a give and take kinda thing. At least you can be happy knowing that even with a little attention while you are shooting your photos will turn out 100% better than anyone with a plain old PNS.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

I think that your problem is that you were using spot metering and not paying attention to what you were metering on. Stick with matrix metering mode. Don't use spot until you've done some studying on how it works.

Matrix looks at the total picture and picks an exposure level that will work for that. Spot looks at a tiny spot and meters based on that spot. If that spot is bright, your picture looks dark. If that spot is dark, your picture looks bright.

 

[ukcatfan]

I had some trouble tonight. I decided to try to set my camera at 1600 ISO. I got some decent pics and some that turned out really bad at this ISO. I figured out that at the higher ISO, the shutter was too fast and causing some of my pics to turn out too dark. When I shoot, I use the cable remote and I just go for it. I figure the more I shoot of the better chance I'll get something good. I don't bother to look at the pics until the band is done.

Any comments or critiques are welcomed. If you could tell me if I am correct about why the ISO 1600 pics weren't coming out right, I would appreciate that as well. I shot in Aperture priority so the camera was controlling the shutter speed.

Please do not be offended, but it looks like user error to me.

The ISO is making the shutter faster, but that is what you want. It cannot make it too fast. It only sets it to the correct speed given the meter reading, aperture, and ISO. I believe your problem has to do with your combination of metering mode, shooting style, and wide aperture. It sounds like you are not taking much time to compose the shots. Doing that with spot metering (in EXIF on the shots I examined) will hardly ever work. It is only metering off the small middle point of the image and you are not paying attention to what is in the middle. The camera is doing what you told it to do.

Also, with the wide aperture you have a smaller DOF, so if you miss the focus point needed, then it might look blurred. I believe that the ISO 800 worked better because you started paying more attention and composed better shots.

Kevin

 

[handicap18]

How about trying this next time:

Shoot in Manual. Set ISO to 800 or 1600, set your shutter speed to 1/60 or 1/80 and f/stop to its widest (this will depend on which focal lenght you use).

If you shoot in RAW you can add some Exposure Compensation in PP as well as adjust the white balance for the outdoor lights.

Looking at your EXIFdata your best images seem to be around 1/60 or 1/80 and at around f/4.5 at the 70mm end and f/5.6 at the 300mm end. These shutter speeds should be fast enough to give you a pretty bright image as well as stop the motion.

Also you said your using the remote shutter. With the 70-300mm VR lens, you shouldn't need to do this. The VR will counter act any camera shake from hand holding or from pressing the shutter. Also at the shutter speeds your getting for your real good shots should be fast enough to help avoid shake, at least at the 70mm end.

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

Your picture quality is going to depend on a lot of different things, including iso, how much light is in the stadium, how quickly they are marching, etc... The list is endless.

I think you need to monitor when you are taking the pictures to see what you are getting and modify while you are shooting, and not afterwards.
Unfortunately photography is a give and take kinda thing. At least you can be happy knowing that even with a little attention while you are shooting your photos will turn out 100% better than anyone with a plain old PNS.

I should clarify that when I was shooting the other bands, I did stop and check how the photos were coming out, but when I shoot my son's band, I just keep on shooting until it's done -- usually. However, at some point last night,I realized that I had blown out highlights and the photos were still blurry and that's when I decided to bump it back to 800 iso.

Here's one example of what I consider OOF:

Here's one with blown out highlights & OOF:

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

Please do not be offended, but it looks like user error to me.

The ISO is making the shutter faster, but that is what you want. It cannot make it too fast. It only sets it to the correct speed given the meter reading, aperture, and ISO. I believe your problem has to do with your combination of metering mode, shooting style, and wide aperture. It sounds like you are not taking much time to compose the shots. Doing that with spot metering (in EXIF on the shots I examined) will hardly ever work. It is only metering off the small middle point of the image and you are not paying attention to what is in the middle. The camera is doing what you told it to do.

Also, with the wide aperture you have a smaller DOF, so if you miss the focus point needed, then it might look blurred. I believe that the ISO 800 worked better because you started paying more attention and composed better shots.

Kevin

Thanks, Ukcatfan. Don't wory, I try never to take things personally. That's why I posted the photos so I could get the critiques and feedback I need to make me become better at photography.
I think you may be on to something though. I recall at the other Stadium, when my focus was off (like metering off the ground as opposed to a person) the camera would blur and couldn't lock in on anything. It would force me to recompose. It's strange isn't it that the camera didn't do this tonight? Could it be because I had the ISO set to 1600?

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

How about trying this next time:

Shoot in Manual. Set ISO to 800 or 1600, set your shutter speed to 1/60 or 1/80 and f/stop to its widest (this will depend on which focal lenght you use).

If you shoot in RAW you can add some Exposure Compensation in PP as well as adjust the white balance for the outdoor lights.

Looking at your EXIFdata your best images seem to be around 1/60 or 1/80 and at around f/4.5 at the 70mm end and f/5.6 at the 300mm end. These shutter speeds should be fast enough to give you a pretty bright image as well as stop the motion.

Also you said your using the remote shutter. With the 70-300mm VR lens, you shouldn't need to do this. The VR will counter act any camera shake from hand holding or from pressing the shutter. Also at the shutter speeds your getting for your real good shots should be fast enough to help avoid shake, at least at the 70mm end.

Thanks Handicap18! I'll try it on Monday night and see how it goes.

 

[handicap18]

That last one looks more like motion blurr. Your shutter is 1/30th, to slow for stop motion. Also you have +1/3 EC, so that combined with the 1/30th shutter gives you the blown out highlights at ISO 1600.

re: focusing, what Focus mode are you using? Nikon has 3 modes, Closest Subject: the camera selects which focus box to use; Dynamic Area: you select which focus box, then the camera will move with the subject and refocus as it moves; last is Spot Area: you select the box which gets focused and you would re focus as the subject would move.

I used closest subject when I first got my camera and found I was getting a lot more out of focus images than I should be getting. I switched to Spot and now use that exclusively. I'll lock the focus and re-compose if necessary and almost always only use the center box in the view finder to get a focus. This may also be something to look into. In this situation I would find one of the marchers, focus on their face, half press the shutter, recompose quickly then take the shot.

The D80 is better with the closet subject focus than the D50 that I have, but with both, spot focus is the best and most accurate especially the center focus point.

So now your saying, oh great, something else to think about....

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

That last one looks more like motion blurr. Your shutter is 1/30th, to slow for stop motion. Also you have +1/3 EC, so that combined with the 1/30th shutter gives you the blown out highlights at ISO 1600.

re: focusing, what Focus mode are you using? Nikon has 3 modes, Closest Subject: the camera selects which focus box to use; Dynamic Area: you select which focus box, then the camera will move with the subject and refocus as it moves; last is Spot Area: you select the box which gets focused and you would re focus as the subject would move.

I used closest subject when I first got my camera and found I was getting a lot more out of focus images than I should be getting. I switched to Spot and now use that exclusively. I'll lock the focus and re-compose if necessary and almost always only use the center box in the view finder to get a focus. This may also be something to look into. In this situation I would find one of the marchers, focus on their face, half press the shutter, recompose quickly then take the shot.

The D80 is better with the closet subject focus than the D50 that I have, but with both, spot focus is the best and most accurate especially the center focus point.

So now your saying, oh great, something else to think about....

Do you mean which metering mode I am using? If so, I have that set to Spot. If not, then I really am confused and need to go paw through my owner's manual.

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

That last one looks more like motion blurr. Your shutter is 1/30th, to slow for stop motion. Also you have +1/3 EC, so that combined with the 1/30th shutter gives you the blown out highlights at ISO 1600.

So now your saying, oh great, something else to think about....

Do you mean motion blur as in I moved the camera as I shot the picture or because they were moving while I shot it? It is possible I caused the motion blur because even though I have it on a tripod, I still pan and adjust angles/tilt (whatever you call it;my brain is tired) depending on what I'm trying to take a picture of. I figured that the +1/3 EC was contributing to the blown highlights.

 

[Nikel]

What focusing mode are you using? Or are you missing your focus? It looks like the focus isn't falling on the band. Or the shutter speeds just aren't quick enough still to stop motion. I remember hauling some serious butt during some songs during marching season, and 1/60 or 1/30 just isn't always quick enough.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Do you mean which metering mode I am using? If so, I have that set to Spot. If not, then I really am confused and need to go paw through my owner's manual.

Why are you using spot? That's almost certainly the source of your metering problems.

As for the blurriness, that's coming from several different things - camera shake, subject motion, or wrong focus point.

To reduce camera shake, try using a tripod or monopod. If you can't, try to get your shutter speed up to at least 1/100 and higher would be better. It looks like you are trying to handhold shots at 120mm (180mm equiv) at 1/30s. The standard guideline says that you should be using 1/180s or faster for that shot.

You can't do much to keep your subjects from moving, so you would also benefit from a faster shutter speed. The shutter speed you need depends on how zoomed in you are and how much your subject is moving. Study your shots to see what works and what doesn't. If you get to about 1/90s or higher, this shouldn't be too much of a problem for most stuff.

In order to get a faster shutter speed, you want the widest possible aperture. Unfortunately, a wide aperture is going to give you a narrow range of in-focus area. There isn't much you can do about that because you don't have enough light for a narrow aperture. Just watch your focal point closely.

I would start with a goal of getting a good shutter speed (faster for hand-held shots and shots with motion, slower is OK for others). If you're goal is 1/100s, then open your aperture as wide as it takes to get there. If a wide aperture still doesn't get you there, then try increasing your ISO. If you are at your max aperture and max usable ISO, then you hae to choose between two bad options. You can either shoot too slow and get camera shake and motion blur or you can dial in exposure compensation and purposefully underexpose your shots. If you do that, shoot in RAW. You can fix the underexposure by a stop or two in post production, but it will make noise problems much, much worse.

And just to repeate again, DON'T USE SPOT METERING unless you are taking the time to get a careful reading off of a mid-brightness part of your subject. In fact, if the light doesn't change at all during your shoot, try shooting manual. Get the exposure where you want it by trial, error, and looking at your preview and histograms. Then just leave it there all night.





If you aren't using a tripod or monopod, con

 

[MICKEY88]

In fact, if the light doesn't change at all during your shoot, try shooting manual. Get the exposure where you want it by trial, error, and looking at your preview and histograms. Then just leave it there all night.

I agree with Mark on this idea, I had suggested it in the other marching band thread..

one trick for night shows, since your lighting basically stays the same,{ but if you get too much dark sky in the shots it will throw your meter off..}

meter off of the empty field, before the show starts, take a few shots, pic the best settings, set these on manual mode and your shots should be good thru the whole show, since your ambient light is consistant, as long as the lighting is fairly even across the whole field..

 

[handicap18]

Do you mean which metering mode I am using? If so, I have that set to Spot. If not, then I really am confused and need to go paw through my owner's manual.

Nope, not metering mode, Auto Focus Mode. When you look through the view finder you see, I'm guessing here, 9 small rectangle boxes. These are your focus points. Either you can decide which of these 9 boxes to use to focus on your subject, or the camera will decide for you. Default is to let the camera decide. I've found this doesn't always work the way I want so I switched the option to Spot Auto Focus and I choose the box I want. More often than not I use the center box.

Do you mean motion blur as in I moved the camera as I shot the picture or because they were moving while I shot it? It is possible I caused the motion blur because even though I have it on a tripod, I still pan and adjust angles/tilt (whatever you call it;my brain is tired) depending on what I'm trying to take a picture of. I figured that the +1/3 EC was contributing to the blown highlights.

By motion blur I mean the subject moved while you were taking the picture and that movement shows up in the picture. Notice the signs in the background, they aren't in sharp focus, but that is because of DOF, IMO.

Also remember your using a lens with Vibration Reduction. You don't need a tripod unless your having issues holding it because of its weight. If you are using a tripod you have to shut the VR off. If you don't it will have an effect on the final image giving it an out of focus appearance. Its something with the tripod and the VR working at the same time actually gives it a bad outcome. The vibration works opposite.

The VR will counteract any issues you have with camera shake. If your at the 70mm end of the lens and use 1/60th for a shutter speed and the VR is on, you should have NO issues with camera shake if your hand holding the camera. If its on a tripod, then you'll have issues.

I too agree with the others. Don't use Spot Metering if your going to use aperture priority. Use matrix or center weight. I used spot metering a lot for a long time. Recently I've gone back to Matrix Metering for most shots. It does a VERY good job for the majority of subjects I've been shooting.

 

[NostalgicDad]

Another vote here for NOT using spot metering in these shots. Remember, spot metering is using the dot in the middle of your D80 viewfinder and can wreak havoc when you are not used to using it. Others have suggested using Matrix metering which should be fine for these shots, but in your other thread those shots had a lot of dark sky which were causing them to be overexposed. These shots don't have that scenario so Matrix should work fine. But, knowing the D80's nuances with that mode, I typically stay in center-weighted mode all of the time unless I need to spot meter. The brackets in the middle of the viewfinder are being used and are also adjustable in the menu. In other words, you can widen them or narrow them to suit your needs and how much weight you to put on the center of the viewfinder.

I can't really add anything with regards to the focusing issues as others have covered that well. In your case, I would stick with AF-A or AF-S to keep it simple. Make sure you're not using AF-C or that can add to your OOF problems regardless of ISO, etc.

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

Another vote here for NOT using spot metering in these shots. Remember, spot metering is using the dot in the middle of your D80 viewfinder and can wreak havoc when you are not used to using it. Others have suggested using Matrix metering which should be fine for these shots, but in your other thread those shots had a lot of dark sky which were causing them to be overexposed. These shots don't have that scenario so Matrix should work fine. But, knowing the D80's nuances with that mode, I typically stay in center-weighted mode all of the time unless I need to spot meter. The brackets in the middle of the viewfinder are being used and are also adjustable in the menu. In other words, you can widen them or narrow them to suit your needs and how much weight you to put on the center of the viewfinder.

I can't really add anything with regards to the focusing issues as others have covered that well. In your case, I would stick with AF-A or AF-S to keep it simple. Make sure you're not using AF-C or that can add to your OOF problems regardless of ISO, etc.

Thanks NostalgicDad. Now can you tell me how do I widen or narrow the brackets in the middle while in center-weighted mode? How do you adjust them in the menu?

 

[NostalgicDad]

Sure thing. Under the Custom Setting Menu, you'll see option #12(Center-weighted). Selecting that will give you 3 different sizes in which to choose from.....6mm, 8mm, and 10mm. I prettty much leave mine at 8mm most of the time.