Jesus changed my life!!!!!

[JennyMominRI]

Oy! My head hurts.

 

[graygables]

In Jewish view satan works for G-d as sort of a prosecuting attorney..He does what G-d allows and is an angel(not a fallen angel)

This is very interesting to me. DH and I believe that temptation comes from within, from our own wise or poor choices and the decisions following those choices. We do not believe that temptation comes from Satan, but from within. We also believe that based on those choices, Satan is given permission to act (or not act) in our lives. We do believe in a real entity and we do believe in demons as those who serve Satan. Just as we can call on God to send angels to us, Satan can also send his 'angels' if, by our actions, God has given his permission for those things to happen. I do not believe that anything happens outside of God's sight or control and if it is discipline, then we have brought it on ourselves.

That said, I do not believe that every thing that we perceive as "bad" is discipline. Sometimes, God allows things to happen that we do not understand and think are "bad" when actually he is using us to teach lessons to those around us. I've been trying very hard to rejoice in ALL things, give thanks in ALL things, not just the easy ones, but the hard ones, too. When hubby is off work for 4 months b/c of the weather, it is very easy to start the "woe is me, where did I go wrong, why am I being punished" thing rather than see it as a way to show others that, because we have hope and faith, we can make it until Spring (or the next job) and that it is our attitude about it that becomes a ministry. I think that's one reason why God re-teaches me this lesson every year, b/c I so desperately need to learn it through and through!

 

[Buckalew11]

Jenny, that is the same as I was told before, exactly! (It may have been you, but I was remembering it to be a long time ago, before you were here, and that it may have been back when Songbird used to post some beliefs when the topic came up.)

See, this is where I have questions!! I have always wondered with the Christian belief of Lucifer as a fallen angel, when did that take place?? (I am not asking you, Jenny, obviously because you don't believe he was a fallen angel).

I have read the story within the scripture of where Lucifer fell and was cast out. However, where it appears in scripture, it is being retold. Satan appears in the Garden of Eden soon after creation as a serpent. So when( on the time line) did Lucifer become that fallen angel?
It was only after Adam and Eve were confronted by God that the serpent was made to crawl on his belly (snake) (this was what I was taught).

 

[JennyMominRI]

Jenny, that is the same as I was told before, exactly! (It may have been you, but I was remembering it to be a long time ago, before you were here, and that it may have been back when Songbird used to post some beliefs when the topic came up.)

See, this is where I have questions!! I have always wondered with the Christian belief of Lucifer as a fallen angel, when did that take place?? (I am not asking you, Jenny, obviously because you don't believe he was a fallen angel).

I have read the story within the scripture of where Lucifer fell and was cast out. However, where it appears in scripture, it is being retold. Satan appears in the Garden of Eden soon after creation as a serpent. So when( on the time line) did Lucifer become that fallen angel?
It was only after Adam and Eve were confronted by God that the serpent was made to crawl on his belly (snake) (this was what I was taught).

I can't help you at all because Jews don't believe the serpent = Satan.. He's just a serpent

 

[graygables]

So, do you think this is going a bit too far???

My SIL is a few fries short of a Happy Meal to start with and she hooked up with some guy at an online dating service. He is an uber-control freak, super-duper holier than thou Christian. They are deeply in credit card debt from donations to missionaries and had to go on welfare to feed their children. When he was here last, he refused to even look at me when I was speaking to him (how dare I? ) and they handed out religious tracts to the Amish and the Mennonites one Saturday afternoon in Amish country. They live in Orlando, but Disney is Satan Embodied. When they had their first DS, I sent them a TON of clothes in all different sizes, brand new from Target clearance b/c they had money troubles. I was informed by MIL that I was NOT to ever send them anymore Disney items and the clothes that had Pooh, Tigger, Mickey, etc had all been...brace yourself...THROWN OUT b/c they couldn't "propogate the evil" by donating them to charity. They named their children Silas and Nehemiah. Not that there is anything wrong with those names, but they really had to hunt to find something that was "Christian" enough. I said they should've named the 2nd one Paul, then they could have made some money on re-enactments at least, but no.

OK, fast forward to today (aside: we never see them when we go to WDW, never call, email, write, etc, they tick me off and are just too much), so today, we get a letter with photos of them and the kids and...tracts. One telling us that we are sinners and the other telling us that the NIV is evil. These tracts aren't your ordinary Chick tracts, either, but ones put out by their (anal retentive) church. I, being tired and hormonal, lost it and told dh where BIL could put his tracts (I did ask for forgiveness ), but I think this is just too far. Just because we don't subscribe to his thinner than a thread concept of Christianty does not mean that we are not Christians. What really chaps my hide is *his* Dad is a Southern Baptist preacher and *HE* gets tracts!!! DH is composing a letter, which will be much less Paul-ine in nature than mine would have been, but I think it will just start an argument that no one can win. I'm all for returning the tracts and telling them not to waste anymore money on stamps, but I don't think we need the whole letter to go along with it.

any thoughts?

 

[Buckalew11]

I can't help you at all because Jews don't believe the serpent = Satan.. He's just a serpent

I know!

And I think a snake is just a snake also. But I do think there is an evil force we know as satan who takes the form of many things to tempt us and entice us. I think satan has a lot of power but not an equal power to God.

I am hoping somebody will answr my question. I have had it forever and no one ever seems to know.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I know!

And I think a snake is just a snake also. But I do think there is an evil force we know as satan who takes the form of many things to tempt us and entice us. I think satan has a lot of power but not an equal power to God.

Frankly I'm pretty happy he was made to crawl on his belly forevermore...Imagine walking along and ending up face to face with him

 

[JennyMominRI]

I know!

And I think a snake is just a snake also. But I do think there is an evil force we know as satan who takes the form of many things to tempt us and entice us. I think satan has a lot of power but not an equal power to God.

I am hoping somebody will answr my question. I have had it forever and no one ever seems to know.

Actually,this brings up another question. Do you believe the story of Adam and Eve is literal?

 

[Buckalew11]

So, do you think this is going a bit too far???

My SIL is a few fries short of a Happy Meal to start with and she hooked up with some guy at an online dating service. He is an uber-control freak, super-duper holier than thou Christian. They are deeply in credit card debt from donations to missionaries and had to go on welfare to feed their children. When he was here last, he refused to even look at me when I was speaking to him (how dare I? ) and they handed out religious tracts to the Amish and the Mennonites one Saturday afternoon in Amish country. They live in Orlando, but Disney is Satan Embodied. When they had their first DS, I sent them a TON of clothes in all different sizes, brand new from Target clearance b/c they had money troubles. I was informed by MIL that I was NOT to ever send them anymore Disney items and the clothes that had Pooh, Tigger, Mickey, etc had all been...brace yourself...THROWN OUT b/c they couldn't "propogate the evil" by donating them to charity. They named their children Silas and Nehemiah. Not that there is anything wrong with those names, but they really had to hunt to find something that was "Christian" enough. I said they should've named the 2nd one Paul, then they could have made some money on re-enactments at least, but no.

OK, fast forward to today (aside: we never see them when we go to WDW, never call, email, write, etc, they tick me off and are just too much), so today, we get a letter with photos of them and the kids and...tracts. One telling us that we are sinners and the other telling us that the NIV is evil. These tracts aren't your ordinary Chick tracts, either, but ones put out by their (anal retentive) church. I, being tired and hormonal, lost it and told dh where BIL could put his tracts (I did ask for forgiveness ), but I think this is just too far. Just because we don't subscribe to his thinner than a thread concept of Christianty does not mean that we are not Christians. What really chaps my hide is *his* Dad is a Southern Baptist preacher and *HE* gets tracts!!! DH is composing a letter, which will be much less Paul-ine in nature than mine would have been, but I think it will just start an argument that no one can win. I'm all for returning the tracts and telling them not to waste anymore money on stamps, but I don't think we need the whole letter to go along with it.

any thoughts?

I think my best answer is to just say that I learned a lot from the movie Bambi. I can't say anything nice so I won't say anything at all.

 

[jimmiej]

Our inner needs. Do you believe God controls our "good" needs and Satan controls our "evil" ones? I think a need is a need. It is up to us how we act on that need. I don't believe God or Satan controls our free will. It's our own choice.

I believe ALL goodness comes from God. The good we do is because that's how God created us. Satan puts evil desires in our mind. We choose which direction we take.

Oy! My head hurts.

Jenny, taking the Bible as a whole (even just the OT), the idea that God creats evil is unsubstantiated.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I believe ALL goodness comes from God. The good we do is because that's how God created us. Satan puts evil desires in our mind. We choose which direction we take.



Jenny, taking the Bible as a whole (even just the OT), the idea that God creats evil is unsubstantiated.

He states it several times in the Hebrew. Check out the the King James Version of Isaiah

I will add this discussing of G-d creating evil from a Chasidic Rabbi


Tolerating Evil
This is the best explanation I know for the great quandary of evil: Since G-d created "the heavens and the earth," and since He chooses good and not evil, then how on earth does evil ever come to be? How can that which opposes His will be derived from His will? Since we believe in creation ex nihilo, including, as Nachmanides describes in detail, the very material out of which all is made, there's no one and nothing left to blame evil upon. All is from Him.

If G-d hated evil because it opposes Him in essence, this quandary would be insurmountable. Once we say that He chose to hate evil, the issue is dismissed. On the contrary, that very choice to hate evil is the ultimate source that brings evil to existence by implication. After all, you can't hate something that doesn't exist. So evil exists in order for G-d to despise it. Or better, it exists out of G-d's spite for it.

Steve Goldstein, architect, was lost on an unnamed island in the South Pacific for who knows how many years. When they finally came to rescue him, they were amazed to find him the singular inhabitant of a small town, all of which had been designed and built by Steve Goldstein, architect. Before Steve left, he gave them a tour - of his house, his café, his supermarket, his movie theater, his sports arena, and finally, his prize achievement, his synagogue.


But there was one tall building he did not take them to. He seemed intent on ignoring all their questions about it. When they insisted and persisted, he gestured in annoyance and replied, "Oh, that. That's the shul I don't go to."

Everyone needs a shul they don't go to. Every story written has an antagonist. Every game has a challenge. And G-d creates evil. As the prophet Isaiah said as clear as can be, "He forms light and creates darkness, makes peace and creates evil" (Isaiah 45:7). His will creates goodness and His disdain creates evil.

The rabbis of the Talmud (Yoma 69b) say this much in their own style:

When Jeremiah witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, he cried, "Where is His awesomeness? Where is His might? Idolaters are dancing in His Temple and He is silent!"

Later, in the time of Babylonian Exile, when the Men of the Great Assembly established a standard version of prayer, they needed to choose superlatives by which to praise G-d. They chose, "the mighty and the awesome G-d." To Jeremiah's question, they answered, "That itself is His awesomeness, that itself is His might. He sees those who go against Him and He is silent."

G-d is not impelled to act against evil, since its very existence is by His choice. He is able to stand back (figuratively, of course, since we understand Him as being imminent as well as transcendent) and watch the drama unfold.

His Free Choice and Ours
This explains our realm of free choice, as well: Since good and evil exist by their Creator's volition, so, too, they are acted out by volition. In other words, we, the players in this drama, choose the path of our drama, towards good or evil, just as the Author chose that these paths should exist in the first place.

 

[Buckalew11]

Actually,this brings up another question. Do you believe the story of Adam and Eve is literal?

Yeah, I'm on of "those".

I was, however, taught that the story of Jonah and fish wasn't a literal story.

 

[eclectics]

I've got to go with you on this,at least by my understanding of Jewish scripture.

Do you remember that thread about spirituality that had the quiz that pointed you to the religion that best fit your answers? Well my answers pegged me as being closest to Reform Judaism. I wonder if God is trying to tell me something?

 

[JennyMominRI]

Do you remember that thread about spirituality that had the quiz that pointed you to the religion that best fit your answers? Well my answers pegged me as being closest to Reform Judaism. I wonder if God is trying to tell me something?

Heh!.. I took that test about 10 years ago when I first came online..It told me the same thing..
Did you look at the results and go "huh? Judaism?"

 

[eclectics]

Heh!.. I took that test about 10 yeas ago when I first came online..It told me the same thing..
Did you look at the results and go "huh? Judaism?"

It was a bit of a shock. But I must say, I have always enjoyed your "lessons" and learning about the religion. I do agree with a lot of it.

 

[Fitswimmer]

WOW, this has been a fascinating discussion! I've always had a problem with the idea of some guy running around with horns and a tail trying to get people to do bad things, however I'm not ready to eliminate the idea that there are evil entities. I believe in God, and angels so if I believe in the existence of entities working for good, why would the opposite not be true?

My problem is that I'm almost fanatical about personal responsibility. Everyone makes mistakes and has the opportunity for forgiveness, but forgiveness doesn't mean that the responsibility for the act goes away. Blaming choices on an evil entity takes away that responsibility, like someone mentioned earlier-The Devil Made Me Do It.

Ultimately, I believe that the choice to do good or do evil is ours. I believe that prayer helps me to make those good choices. As a Catholic, I believe that I have help from a community of saints (all those that have died in God's grace, official and unofficial) that lead by example. I believe that going to Jesus and Mary in prayer in times of temptation can help me. Jenny might remember the Prayer to St Michael the Archangel-I won't type the whole thing out, but essentially it asks St Michael to protect us from temptation, and defend us from the power or evil. It's an older prayer, but I still say it every night. I started using it around the time of the sex scandal in the Church. I was so angry at the actions of these men, I didn't know what else to do-so I called on St Michael, the Superhero of my Catholic childhood to root out the evildoers.

If there are saints and angels that can help lead me away from temptation, I guess it's logical to assume that there are evil entities that will help lead me into it.

 

[Buckalew11]

WOW, this has been a fascinating discussion! I've always had a problem with the idea of some guy running around with horns and a tail trying to get people to do bad things, however I'm not ready to eliminate the idea that there are evil entities. I believe in God, and angels so if I believe in the existence of entities working for good, why would the opposite not be true?

My problem is that I'm almost fanatical about personal responsibility. Everyone makes mistakes and has the opportunity for forgiveness, but forgiveness doesn't mean that the responsibility for the act goes away. Blaming choices on an evil entity takes away that responsibility, like someone mentioned earlier-The Devil Made Me Do It.

Ultimately, I believe that the choice to do good or do evil is ours. I believe that prayer helps me to make those good choices. As a Catholic, I believe that I have help from a community of saints (all those that have died in God's grace, official and unofficial) that lead by example. I believe that going to Jesus and Mary in prayer in times of temptation can help me. Jenny might remember the Prayer to St Michael the Archangel-I won't type the whole thing out, but essentially it asks St Michael to protect us from temptation, and defend us from the power or evil. It's an older prayer, but I still say it every night. I started using it around the time of the sex scandal in the Church. I was so angry at the actions of these men, I didn't know what else to do-so I called on St Michael, the Superhero of my Catholic childhood to root out the evildoers.

If there are saints and angels that can help lead me away from temptation, I guess it's logical to assume that there are evil entities that will help lead me into it.

I don't think it is a problem to accept responsibility for your actions.
I think it is what God would have each of us do. After all, He sent His only son to die because of those sins and if He didn;t want us to accept responsibility and just pass it on do the devil, then there'd be no need for Christ's gift of salvation.

I was the one who brought up, "the devil made me do it". That isn;t an excuse for the wrong we do and it really isn't even funny when you believe there is a source of evil that is going against Almighty God and when you cave, he wins a little. No, it is a popular saying and a way to take a little less heat by passing the buck but, all in all, we are responsible for our own actions.
Jesus was tempted also. The temptation isn't a sin. Giving in to it is though. I think praying helps me also.
When I look to how Christ handled temptation in the wilderness, I see He quoted scripture. I believe there is much power in God's Word, still today. I think following Christ's example of resisting temptation is still relevant today. JMHO.

 

[JoBird]

DANG!!!!
You get a migraine and go to bed and look at all you miss!

I'm soooo enjoying this thread!

This is in another direction totally, but is along the same line of thought about Satan and his demons. If there is no devil, what about demonic possession? Is is true, or is that something that has been made up by the church to scare people?

If it is true, then did these possessed people open themselves up to evil by doing evil things?

Just wondering what your thoughts are. I will be in and out all day, so I will check responses later! Have a great day guys!

PS...I have just added ALL of you to my prayer list...hope God blesses you!

 

[Fitswimmer]

This is in another direction totally, but is along the same line of thought about Satan and his demons. If there is no devil, what about demonic possession? Is is true, or is that something that has been made up by the church to scare people?

Did you see the film "The Exorcism of Emily Rose"? I'm kind of a horror film fan so I watched it. It's based on a true story of an incident with a young woman who died after an exorcism. Were her symptoms from mental illness that would have been cured by medication? Was the medication making the problem worse or was something else behind it? Or, did her religious belief lead her to believe that she was possessed rather than mentally ill? It was really interesting.

I've also read the book "Hostage to the Devil" by Malachi Martin. He talks about cases of demonic possession and exorcism and makes a pretty good case for their validity.

Having said all that-I find it hard to believe that a demon could just take possession of someone against their will. God does not usurp our free will, why would a demon have that power?

 

[JennyMominRI]

DANG!!!!
You get a migraine and go to bed and look at all you miss!

I'm soooo enjoying this thread!

This is in another direction totally, but is along the same line of thought about Satan and his demons. If there is no devil, what about demonic possession? Is is true, or is that something that has been made up by the church to scare people?

If it is true, then did these possessed people open themselves up to evil by doing evil things?

Just wondering what your thoughts are. I will be in and out all day, so I will check responses later! Have a great day guys!

PS...I have just added ALL of you to my prayer list...hope God blesses you!

There are demoms in some lines of Jewish though..Some info

Dybbuk - Spiritual Possession and Jewish Folklore
By Jeff Belanger

A human being that is possessed by a spirit or some otherworldly creature is a phenomenon found in a myriad of cultures and religions. Jewish folklore calls the spirit that causes this rare but remarkable occurrence a "dybbuk."

A dybbuk (pronounced "dih-buk") is the term for a wandering soul that attaches itself to a living person and controls that person's behavior to accomplish a task. The word "dybbuk" is the Hebrew word for "cleaving" or "clinging," and surprisingly, having a dybbuk is not always a bad thing for the human host. However, sometimes having a dybbuk is a very bad thing.

Rabbi Gershon Winkler has been studying Jewish folklore, spirituality, and its shamanic roots for more than 25 years. He has written books covering the Jewish perspective on ghosts, apparitions, magic, and reincarnation, including a book titled Dybbuk. I spoke to Rabbi Winkler about dybbuk from his office at the Walking Stick Foundation in the wilderness of New Mexico.

My own understanding of possession is from a very Roman Catholic perspective: a person can succumb to a demon or devil that will take over their body, and the only cure is an exorcism to drive the demon out. Rabbi Winkler said, "[Jews] don't believe in demonic possession. We believe that, on very rare occasions, there can be a possession of a living person by the soul of one who has left the body, but not the world, and they're seeking a body to possess to finish whatever they need to finish."

Winkler explained how stories of dybbuk go back to ancient scriptures. In the Old Testament of the Bible, in the Book of Samuel (18:10), a bad spirit is briefly described as attaching itself to King Saul, the first king elected chieftain of the ancient tribes of Israel: "And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul..." Later in the Bible, in the Book of Kings, the prophet Elijah is possessed by the spirit of a dead man who is trying to get the prophet to trick the King into going to war when he wasn't supposed to. Winkler said, "You have stories like that, that just nonchalantly mention spirits of people who have left us coming down to effect some change, some phenomenon in this world."

Rabbi Winkler has a unique perspective on dybbuk and other Jewish folklore. Though the kinds of things he's writing and teaching about may not be discussed in your local synagogue, Winkler explains how ghosts and spirits are definitely part of Judaism. Winkler said, "Our scriptures and our mystical tradition are full of ghosts -- ghosts meaning the disembodied soul still wandering around. We also have teachings about what in English they call "demons," but they're not all evil -- they're called 'sheydim' in Hebrew. There are good demons and bad demons. According to our ancient tradition, demons are beings just like we are, just like animals are. They were created in the twilight of creation after the human being was created, right before the climax of creation, so that they're neither of this world, nor of the other world, but little bit of both. There are teachings about how our ancestors like King Solomon dabbled in demonology, and he learned a lot of sorcery mysteries from the famous head of all the demons, Ashmedai."

So how does a dybbuk take hold of a person? Winkler said, "The dybbuk is drawn to someone who is in the state where their soul and their body are not fully connected with each other because of severe melancholy, psychosis, stuff like that -- where you're not integrated. It seeks a particular person who in their current lifetime is going through what the possessing spirit went through, and so the possessing spirit is drawn to compatibility -- to someone who is struggling with the same thing it did. Let's say in my heart I have a desire to rob all convenience stores, but I don't follow through because I don't have the guts. The spirit of someone who has actually done it will be drawn to my desire to do it and will possess me because we're compatible."

Giving in to your bad inclinations doesn't necessarily mean you are victim of a dybbuk. A true possession does have specific signs. Winkler explained, "You can tell it is real if the person is capable of speaking things that they would not otherwise be capable of knowing. Because the soul that's in them is not integrated with them enough to be subject to time, space, and matter, they would be able to tell you things they would ordinarily not know -- like what you dreamed last night, what's happening across the street, maybe they can even speak a separate language that they've never known before." If this kind of bad possession takes hold, the solution is exorcism.

The Jewish exorcism ritual is performed by a rabbi who has mastered practical Kabbalah. The ceremony involves a quorum of 10 people who gather in a circle around the possessed person. The group recites Psalm 91 three times, and the rabbi blows the shofar -- a ram's horn. Rabbi Winkler has performed four exorcisms in his life so far. He said, "We blow the ram's horn in a certain way, with certain notes, in effect to shatter the body, so to speak. So that the soul who is possessing will be shaken loose. After it has been shaken loose, we can begin to communicate with it and ask it what it is here for. We can pray for it and do a ceremony for it to enable it to feel safe and finished so that it can leave the person's body."

The point of the exorcism is to heal the person being possessed and the spirit doing the possessing. This is a stark contrast to the Catholic exorcism that is intended to drive away the offending spirit or demon. Winkler said, "We don't drive anything out of anybody. What we want to do is to heal the soul that's possessing and heal the person. It's all about healing -- we do the ceremony on behalf of both people."

In some cases, a person may exhibit signs of dybbuk but the problem is purely psychological. Rabbi Winkler recounted a story from Jewish folklore that took place in the eighteenth century -- around the time the first wind-up alarm clock was invented. A woman brought her daughter to her rabbi because she suspected a dybbuk. The rabbi diagnosed the young girl and didn't find any real signs of possession, so he sent her home with an alarm clock and told her to carry it throughout the day. The rabbi told the woman and her daughter that at 4:30 that afternoon, the dybbuk would leave the girl. At 4:30, the family believed the dybbuk was gone by the mere shock of hearing the bell go off at exactly 4:30.

There is also a positive aspect to a dybbuk. Sometimes a spirit will come to a person in a time of need to help. Winkler said, "The second kind of possession is called 'sod ha'ibbur,' which is Hebrew for 'mystery impregnation.' This kind of possession is a good possession -- it's a spirit guide. The spirit of someone who has struggled and overcome what you have struggled with and can't overcome will be lent to you from the spirit world to possess you, encourage you, and help you overcome what you have not been able to overcome and what it has been able to in its lifetime. Then when it's done and you've managed to achieve what you need to achieve in your life, it leaves you. Sometimes people reach high pinnacles of achievement and they fall into deep depression, and that's explained as the loss of that spirit. So there's a sense of loss, and it's misinterpreted as depression. If the person realizes that, they can be thankful that they had a spirit guide to help them, and they need to continue to lift up their own spirit."

Most belief systems have some notion of a spirit guide or guardian angel, and they also recognize a malevolent spiritual force that can influence us. The Jewish concept of dybbuk recognizes that our physical world and the spiritual world can intertwine for both positive and negative reasons. If those intersecting reasons are negative, Judaism has a healing process to mend the collision so both the possessor and the possessed can move on.


Rabbi Gershon Winkler can be reached via the Walking Stick Foundation Web site at: www.walkingstick.org.