Ivy League Colleges

[NY Disney fan]

I would NOT send my child to an Ivy if they were accepted. Its great when parents have the $$ to send their kids there or if the student gets a scholarship. But for everyone else getting into mounds of DEBT is not worth it.

I would rather my child go to another great school (they DO exist outside the Ivy system) and be debt-free or at least minimal debt.

 

[ncbyrne]

There are only 8 Ivy League schools: Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton, University of PA and Yale, all located in the eastern USA. Admission is based soley on academic merit, so it's not just a matter of being able to afford these schools.
All of the Ivy League institutions share some general characteristics: They are among the most prestigious and selective schools in the U.S., they consistently place close to the top of college and university rankings; they rank within the top one percent of the world's academic institutions in terms of financial endowment (only Cornell receives additional government funding); they attract top-tier students and faculty; and they have relatively small undergraduate populations.
A degree from these schools carries great weight - if you can, do it!

 

[my3kids]

I would NOT send my child to an Ivy if they were accepted. Its great when parents have the $$ to send their kids there or if the student gets a scholarship. But for everyone else getting into mounds of DEBT is not worth it.

I would rather my child go to another great school (they DO exist outside the Ivy system) and be debt-free or at least minimal debt.

But the schools that are "great" in terms of rankings outside the Ivy League are not inexpensive. Think Swathmore, Williams, Davidson, Washington & Lee, Haverford, Grinnell, Claremont-McKenna.......you are still looking at $40K+. Not being in the Ivy League doesn't guarantee an inexpensive education or an inferior education.

 

[fac]

There are only 8 Ivy League schools: Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton, University of PA and Yale, all located in the eastern USA.

What about stanford , Cal Tech?

 

[pearlieq]

You are correct though, the Ivy's are doing something right as they graduate many of the best and brightest students every year.

And the rest of the "best and brightest" come out of every other school in the nation.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the rest. There is a place in our system for Ivies, and like I said I wouldn't forbid my kid from going there, but I don't think it's a MUST for anyone, and I don't even think they offer a significant advantage for 90% of kids.

Also, OF COURSE my feelings are gross generalizations--most opinions are, and would necessarily have to be. Unless a person has personally interviewed every single Ivy student, hopeful, faculty member, etc. their opinions are generalizations based on the information they have available.

 

[crisi]

What about stanford , Cal Tech?

Both excellent well respected private schools. There are a lot of private colleges - some well respected and expensive, some expensive and not terribly well respected, and occationally someone will find the gem, something that is on the cusp of breaking through to well respected (therefore, a the year you graduate its on someone's "best small schools" list) that doesn't charge what a well respected school does.

The "Ivys" are an atheletic league. And while all are well respected acedemically, saying you are a Yalie is different than saying you went to Penn and Princeton carries still different meanings.

I've spent a lot of time consulting in large Minnesota companies. While most rank and file employees were graduates of the University of Minnesota or St. Thomas (the UofM is a pretty well regarded school), overwhelmingly the senior executives had their MBAs or graduate degrees from Yale, Harvard, Stanford, etc. There are certainly exceptions - senior executives who didn't go to fancy schools. And there are certainly people with Ivy League (or similar) degrees that don't gain a lot of advantage from them. But I'd guess they give you a better chance. I know my husband's small private school degree has opened up networking doors my U of M experience just can't provide.

 

[iggbees]

i didn't go to an ivy league persay, but my school at one time was the equivalent to a woman's ivy league school and is still thought of that way to some people (other people have no idea where my school is).

i feel that a lot of my friends got jobs out of college due to connections through my college, not connections that they made out in the world. i know of at least 4 of my closest college friends who got jobs because another graduate from my school worked there previously and because they had good luck with them they decided to take another graduate on.

my dad thought i was being silly going to my college, since it really cost a lot of money, but honestly, i wouldn't exchange it for anything. i was extremely comfortable there, i had a lot of opportunities and was really grateful to have gone there.

i do think that people put too much emphasis on getting into ivy leagues, it's really all about how comfortable you are at your college. i know that i want to go to an ivy league for graduate school, but only because they have some of the best funding (and most breakthrough research) in the area that i'm in.

 

[gottaluvdis]

My DD9 just asked me the other day what the best colleges are. I mentioned a bunch of the Ivy's, and when she heard Dartmouth was right here in NH, she decided to go there so she can come home more often (LOL). My grandfather graduated from Harvard and always wanted one of his children or grandchildren to attend. None of us did. My Dad wasn't willing to spend the money, and even though we had legacy, I didn't apply because my grades were good, but not good enough. Harvard's in another league. I ended up going to our state school (University of NH) and don't regret it one bit. It's a very good school in it's own right. DD is on the right track so far with her grades, but we have a long way to go! If she stays at the top of her class, applies and is accepted, and receives academic scholarships, it would be hard to pass up the Ivy opportunity.

 

[my3kids]

What about stanford , Cal Tech?

There are many great schools, but these are not in the Ivy League. Neither are many top schools. Right up there with Stanford would be Duke, but again, not in the Ivy League. There are a group of schools which most would consider the top schools in the nation. Some are in the Ivy League, some are in other conferences.

 

[arminnie]

Don't under estimate Stanford - it's not in the Ivy League (formal association), but it is far most selective than some of the Ivy league schools. Duke is top notch too.

(Stanford Business School is much harder to get into than Harvard Business School - but that's another story.)

I think the most important factor is the potential student. How smart, how hard-working, how ambitious, etc. is the kid?

A really, really bright child with intellectual curiosity should go to school in an environment where he or she will be challenged and can reach his or her full potential.

The top tier private schools can often end up being less expensive than some of the top public schools. More and more of them are not requiring loans.

One of the biggest factors in the education received is who else is sitting in that class. A brilliant, excellent teacher will have to "dumb down" a class if most of the students are just okay compared to a classroom of exceptionally bright students.

Many state schools are now offering honors programs to attract top students - often including financial aid not based on need. Schools like Texas, Michigan and California have had great programs for years. But because of the Waltons even the University of Arkansas now has a very good honors program. (A billion years ago when I was going to college UofA was pretty pitiful).

There are also some second tier private colleges (Tulane for example) that offer fabulous educations. They are just as expensive as Stanford or Princeton - but because they really, really want to attract top students they offer a number of "Merit" scholarships each year. The typical merit scholarship winner is a student who could get into just about any college, but would not receive any financial aid based on need.

And there's also the whole question of whether your child should go to college at all - it's not for everyone. College is not "trade" school. I value education tremendously, but that doesn't mean that everyone has to feel like I do.

I have relatives who truly had no use for college - never wanted to take another English or History class again the rest of their lives. But they are smart and are very successful members of society. One is a mechanic with an airline and the other does a/c work. They work very hard and make excellent money.

 

[MrsPete]

Private schools usually wind up costing less due to the fact that they give more money to the students.

This is something that's repeated frequently, but I don't think this is USUALLY the case. The private schools do offer money to some students, but I don't think it's fair to assume that every student at every private school is getting a big bunch of private aid. Two of my siblings attended private schools; neither of them saw a penny of aid from the school itself (though both received federal financial aid).

It's worth looking into -- if your student prefers the private school -- but it may or may not be true for your son or daughter.

 

[arminnie]

This is something that's repeated frequently, but I don't think this is USUALLY the case. The private schools do offer money to some students, but I don't think it's fair to assume that every student at every private school is getting a big bunch of private aid. Two of my siblings attended private schools; neither of them saw a penny of aid from the school itself (though both received federal financial aid).

I agree - not EVERY student at EVERY private school gets financial aid. There are all types of private schools - some fabulous and others - well not so fabulous.

But the really, really top private schools do offer financial aid to an awful lot of students. Sometimes the majority of the students attending a top school are getting some financial aid - maybe not a full ride but something.

The really great schools like Stanford admit on a need blind basis. I know - I've sat in meetings with the admission director. The requests for financial aid are kept totally separate during the admissions process. After a student has been accepted for admission Stanford finds a way to make it financially possible for the student to attend. I think most of the Ivies do this also.

About the only way that a student who does not have financial need is going to get money is to get a merit scholarship from a public or private university that is essentially "buying" a student of that calibre to attend their university. Those are extremely competitive.

A top student with great grades, top SAT scores, and a solid academic background has no guarantee of getting into a competitive school these days, but if they do and need financial help they are most likely going to get it.

Stanford has publicly said that they could admit a freshman class three times the size of what is possible if they only took students with all As and perfect SAT scores.

Even Tulane (which is a step down from the top tier schools) admits a freshman class of about 1600 from about 20,000 applicants.

The real issue is how do you get your child accepted at one of these top schools - not how do you pay for it. If you need the help you will get it.

Now if you get a child accepted at Harvard and have the resources to pay for it, then it is still your choice not to spend your money on a top-notch Harvard education for your child. If you have that kind of money, you don't need financial aid, You aren't likely to get aid from a school like Harvard just because you don't want to pay it.

I personally don't understand why people of limited means go out on a limb to send a child to an extremely expensive private school that is just fair not great. But it's not my choice to make so I don't have to understand it.

Since most top students do go on to graduate or professional schools, it is not a bad strategy to pay for a great state college (cheaper) and save the money for Yale law school or Stanford Business school or a phd from some fabulous university.

A student with an undergrad degree from the University of Arkansas and a law degree from Yale can usually get a much higher starting salary than a student with an undergraduate degree from Yale and a law degree from the University of Arkansas at Little Rock.

 

[gina2000]

I guess I should answer my own question, no?

I'm a big believer in sending a child to an ivy league (or other very well known) university if they have the academics to get in. I won't, however, send a child to an expensive university if the name does not translate into future potential for the child. I don't want to saddle my child with bills from a private institution which may not have the cache to get him into a position where he can easily pay off his debt. I also think sending a child to an expensive university and saddling them with debt isn't a great idea if they have decided to major in something they love but will not be entering a high paying field. If I can afford to pay for it, then it doesn't matter. If I can't, then I don't want them to drown in debt.

In the profession I left, having an Ivy League (or equivalent upper tier university) degree made a difference especially on a graduate level. So, I do believe in the name value of a university.

 

[salmoneous]

Random thoughts from an Ivy League grad:

Let's face it - the "Ivy League" is a sports conference, not the best 8 colleges in the nation. There are obviously a number of great colleges outside the Ivy's and one Ivy that really doesn't belong (kidding). So let me talk, in general, about elite colleges.

Your kids are going to pick up values - some good, some bad - at any college. The only two you can be sure will be emphasized at an elite are hard work and love of learning.

Elite schools aren't vocational schools. If you only goal is to get a good job when you get out, don't go. You go for the education, the knowledge, the experience, the people you will meet. DW went to the same school and became a public school teacher. Sure she could have gotten the same job after graduating from her State U (heck, it would have been easier) but she'd be the first to tell you that's not why she went to college.

That said, having a degree from an elite college is an amazing asset for your career. My degree has gotten me in the door to every job I've had. And after 10 years of teaching, when DW decided to changer careers, that dusted off degree helper her land a position she had no shot at getting without the degree. (Just to be clear, the degree doesn't magically get you great jobs. But it does open interview doors and get people to listen to you that wouldn't normally do so. Now matter how great you are, no matter how well you can sell yourself, you can't get the job if you people won't talk to you and consider you for the position in the first place.)

The money thing: I grew up somewhere between dirt-poor and lower middle class. One of my best friends / roommates is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. I was friends with the guy for over a year before I realized what his family was worth. Based on my experiences, the rich and super rich may be weird but they are vastly less snobby than the upper-middle class. And there is no peer pressure to keep up with the very rich, because it's totally impossible.

My family made some huge sacrifices to get me through college, and I am extraordinarily grateful.

 

[Evans Family]

Let us remember that a great education does not equal happiness or "guarantee" you a job. It does not also guarantee you a six figure salary at graduation or later in life for that matter.

Did anyone read the "Millionaire Next Door?" Many millionaires out there are plummers, electricians or owners of small businesses.

I get caught in this discussion constantly with the public school vs. private school debate.

If you measure success by how much money you make most successful people were B-C students. Not your straight A students. This was quite evident at my high school reunion. Those with the golden degrees from top colleges were not the ones making the most money.

Also money does not guarantee happiness. Just because you have an Ivy League (or equivalent) education does not mean that you will be happy or guarantee that you will make six figures or higher. What matters is the student, their motivation and ultimately what they want in life.

 

[crisi]

Let us remember that a great education does not equal happiness or "guarantee" you a job. It does not also guarantee you a six figure salary at graduation or later in life for that matter.

Did anyone read the "Millionaire Next Door?" Many millionaires out there are plummers, electricians or owners of small businesses.

I get caught in this discussion constantly with the public school vs. private school debate.

If you measure success by how much money you make most successful people were B-C students. Not your straight A students. This was quite evident at my high school reunion. Those with the golden degrees from top colleges were not the ones making the most money.

Also money does not guarantee happiness. Just because you have an Ivy League (or equivalent) education does not mean that you will be happy or guarantee that you will make six figures or higher. What matters is the student, their motivation and ultimately what they want in life.

But that assumes you are measuring both success and the payback of an "elite" school merely financial. There are other benefits to going to an elite school - the chance to meet people who share your level of intellectualism. I'm in school at a "non-elite" state school after having spent my first college experiences at two of the best public universities in the county. The calibre of students is different, and therefore the quality of learning is different - even where the quality of instruction is similar.

I'd have made good money as a plumber, but I wouldn't know how to deconstruct Salman Rushdie without college. That may not be valuable to most people, but I've found it to be quite handy - and definately worthwhile.

 

[arminnie]

Your kids are going to pick up values - some good, some bad - at any college. The only two you can be sure will be emphasized at an elite are hard work and love of learning.

Elite schools aren't vocational schools. ....

That said, having a degree from an elite college is an amazing asset for your career. .....Just to be clear, the degree doesn't magically get you great jobs. But it does open interview doors and get people to listen to you that wouldn't normally do so. Now matter how great you are, no matter how well you can sell yourself, you can't get the job if you people won't talk to you and consider you for the position in the first place.

The money thing: I grew up somewhere between dirt-poor and lower middle class. One of my best friends / roommates is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. I was friends with the guy for over a year before I realized what his family was worth. Based on my experiences, the rich and super rich may be weird but they are vastly less snobby than the upper-middle class. And there is no peer pressure to keep up with the very rich, because it's totally impossible.

I totally agree with you. I grew up more on the dirt-poor side, but snobbery was WAY less prevalent at the schools that I went to than at the big state schools or the less academically robust private schools.

OK - I guess we were intellectual snobs sometimes. but it was not about money. At Stanford we regularly called USC - University of Second Choice - because it was a very expensive school that probably much better than we gave them credit for, but it was no where near Stanford in academic prestige.

There's a huge rivalry between UC Berkeley and Stanford. UC Berkeley is one of the top state schools in the nation and very difficult to get into, but one year at the "BIG GAME" Stanford students wore tshirts that simply said "I got in."

I had a friend who did not want to go to our 25 year Stanford Biz school reunion a couple of years ago. She was not working as she was taking care of her mother with advanced Alzheimer's.

Some of our classmates are fabulously wealthy and successful beyond belief - but no one talked about their possessions or accomplishments. I think more people were genuinely impressed with her dedication to her mother than with anyone's financial or professional feats.

I did my undergraduate work at Newcomb College of Tulane University. Newcomb closes its doors (ala Radcliffe) on July 1st of this - a Katrina casualty. But in it's day it was an extremely prestigious academic institution - much better than Tulane (even the guys admitted it).

I have many, many friends in New Orleans - some from very old established families. I literally don't have a clue who has money and who doesn't because it just isn't talked about.