it's now wrong to identify an unconstitutional act?

[RyMickey]

I'd rather be safe than sorry. I'll leave it at that as I really don't feel like debating today.

 

[jjskribs]

LastTycoon...... Very Interesting...

 

[DawnCt1]

I totally agree. In this time of national crisis, a time when our most cherished freedoms and rights are threatened by international terrorists, Americans must be willing to let go of some of their rights and freedoms. We are at war. We are under siege by terrorists who are adherents of a fundamentalist, totalitarian belief system that makes up it's own rules and does not tolerate dissent. Not exactly a great time for our President to pay attention to the constitution, or such divisive, destructive things as dialogue and debate. Please, as American Citizens who want to protect your country, stop asking questions, accept the decisions of your leaders, and let's get on with spreading this kind of freedom and liberty to all the world.

I think that it may be a leap to assume that it was "unconstitutional". The process was vetted by the lawyers in the NSA, the Justice Dept and the Congressional leadership was also informed. If American citizens with direct ties to Al Qaeda are communicating with foreign operatives, that perhaps is something we should know about. If this were WWII, those "citizens" would be referred to as spies. We certainly had plenty of spies during WWII. I wonder if President Roosevelt would have worried about terrorists rights more than the rights and safety of Americans.

 

[DawnCt1]

. Claiming that "judges" are appinted and not "worthy" of security clearances is ludicrious...Karl Rove and Scooter Libby are "appointed" as well, aren't they? At least I surely never saw their names on a ballot.

But not all judges have security clearances and they don't "happen over night".

 

[Chuck S]

But not all judges have security clearances and they don't "happen over night".

Well, hmmm, it has been 4 years since 9-11-2001, and the President has gone around the Constitution, by his own admission, at least 36 times in that 4 years. Surely they could have cleared a handful of top-level judges by now for security clearances.

 

[DawnCt1]

Well, hmmm, it has been 4 years since 9-11-2001, and the President has gone around the Constitution, by his own admission, at least 36 times in that 4 years. Surely they could have cleared a handful of top-level judges by now for security clearances.

We don't know the dates of each of these incidents, nor what precipitated the investigations.

 

[LastTycoon]

If American citizens with direct ties to Al Qaeda are communicating with foreign operatives, that perhaps is something we should know about. If this were WWII, those "citizens" would be referred to as spies. We certainly had plenty of spies during WWII. I wonder if President Roosevelt would have worried about terrorists rights more than the rights and safety of Americans.

I couldn't agree more. My Grandfather, a Navy Veteran who fought during WWII to protect the inalienable rights of all Americans, is infuriated by people who complain about the President, or about the President's use of his war-time powers. Everybody who goes around saying, "My opinions are just as valid as yours," and "What are my country's leaders doing and why," need to learn to keep their mouths shut for the sake of American Freedom. And you are completely correct about FDR- he was even willing to order the internment of Japanese-Americans in camps during World War II! Well, civil liberties are often lost during war time.

 

[simpilotswife]

Please, as American Citizens who want to protect your country, stop asking questions, accept the decisions of your leaders, and let's get on with spreading this kind of freedom and liberty to all the world.

Baa Baa

 

[CarolA]

His reaction is just amazing....

No matter how you feel about him you have got to admit that his PR people are blowing this one..

(And am I the only one old enough to remember Richard Nixon?? Bush's reaction just reminded me of him so much.. All that was missing was the "I am not a crook statement)

 

[CarolA]

I couldn't agree more. My Grandfather, a Navy Veteran who fought during WWII to protect the inalienable rights of all Americans, is infuriated by people who complain about the President, or about the President's use of his war-time powers. Everybody who goes around saying, "My opinions are just as valid as yours," and "What are my country's leaders doing and why," need to learn to keep their mouths shut for the sake of American Freedom. And you are completely correct about FDR- he was even willing to order the internment of Japanese-Americans in camps during World War II! Well, civil liberties are often lost during war time.

OMG! Let me get this right... America is only the land of "those who agree with me"

 

[djcruz4fun]

It's funny, but nations that are used to terrorism (eg. the UK and Spain) don't feel the same way. Maybe the USA's attitude will follow suit when it has learned the same lessons.

[EDIT]: Disclaimer - I mean no offence to the fine nation that is the USA by that comment, merely that in terms of experience re: terrorism it is still very young, being a comparatively young country as a whole.



Rich::

What lessons do we need to learn?

 

[Chuck S]

We don't know the dates of each of these incidents, nor what precipitated the investigations.

So you're saying that ALL 36 incidents happened within a couple months of 9-11? A stretch of the imagination, IMO. Surely they could have had a least ONE judge cleared for security within even a one month time frame. Remember, some judges have military service records, it shouldn't take all that long to do a security check, should it?

 

[DawnCt1]

So you're saying that ALL 36 incidents happened within a couple months of 9-11? A stretch of the imagination, IMO. Surely they could have had a least ONE judge cleared for security within even a one month time frame. Remember, some judges have military service records, it shouldn't take all that long to do a security check, should it?

We don't know when it happened. 36 incidents could have involved just a few individuals.

 

[Alice's Mom]

When we give up some liberties for security, we will eventually lose both...

 

[dcentity2000]

What lessons do we need to learn?

Well, two in particular seem obvious to me, a layman:

1. People who try to limit your civil liberties are the Bad Guys - Good Guys stand tall and proud, a pillar of strength to the world. When it's your principals that set you apart, only the weak compromise.
2. Guilty until proven innocent policies gain you no ground. The UK learnt the hard way with the IRA in particular.

[EDIT]: Another one just sprung to mind - people who tell you that an incursion on your liberties is necessary for your own good yet do not furnish you with particulars are usually up to no good. Stalin comes to mind as a perfect example of this.

[EDIT 2]: Also Hitler. Hitler did that.

[EDIT 3]: Not saying that Bush = Hitler or Bush = Stalin, just giving examples. I mean, Bush would have to declare war on loads more countries to compare to them and would also need to commit genocide. Buh.



Rich::

 

[DawnCt1]

.

[EDIT]: Another one just sprung to mind - people who tell you that an incursion on your liberties is necessary for your own good yet do not furnish you with particulars are usually up to no good. Stalin comes to mind as a perfect example of this.

[EDIT 2]:


Rich::

Those that fit the criteria of the program (NSA) had clear and direct links to Al Qaeda. Had they been successful, Al Qaeda would have had a serious incursion into the life, liberty and pursuit of many Americans. I believe that The Brooklyn Bridge was a target, probably more that we don't know about. Stalin really shouldn't come to mind because he killed millions of his own country men when he should have been protecting them. Edited to add;, I don't think that anyone on Sept. 12, thought that we wouldn't get hit again. Thus far we haven't. I don't think that it was by accident, do you?

 

[dcentity2000]

Those that fit the criteria of the program (NSA) had clear and direct links to Al Qaeda. Had they been successful, Al Qaeda would have had a serious incursion into the life, liberty and pursuit of many Americans. I believe that The Brooklyn Bridge was a target, probably more that we don't know about. Stalin really shouldn't come to mind because he killed millions of his own country men when he should have been protecting them.

So you're with the "let's limit life because we're scared" troup?

Pah. Soon you will learn



Rich::

 

[Chuck S]

We don't know when it happened. 36 incidents could have involved just a few individuals.

Ummm, wasn't there reported to be 500 people on average under surveillance at any given time?

And if it was all within a couple of months of 9-11, why didn't Bush say so? I should think that would have been his BEST defense to those claiming it was inappropriate conduct. Instead, it was reported that he "renewed" these authorizations at least 3 dozen times since October 2001, which would certainly imply ongoing authorizations, not within a limited time of 2-3 months.

 

[dcentity2000]

Has the boss man outlined exactly what he's doing and why, sans names? If not, what excuse has he fired off?



Rich::

 

[Alice's Mom]

I totally agree. In this time of national crisis, a time when our most cherished freedoms and rights are threatened by international terrorists, Americans must be willing to let go of some of their rights and freedoms. We are at war. We are under siege by terrorists who are adherents of a fundamentalist, totalitarian belief system that makes up it's own rules and does not tolerate dissent. Not exactly a great time for our President to pay attention to the constitution, or such divisive, destructive things as dialogue and debate. Please, as American Citizens who want to protect your country, stop asking questions, accept the decisions of your leaders, and let's get on with spreading this kind of freedom and liberty to all the world.

I hope others paid attention to the irony of this statement...lets limit liberty so we can spread liberty...