Is DVC No Longer Special??

[Brian Noble]

I'm not sure the points aspect contributes. Wyndham's point system has resale prices between 10-20% of retail.

(Yes, that's right: a dime on the dollar.)

 

[Dean]

I'm not sure the points aspect contributes. Wyndham's point system has resale prices between 10-20% of retail.

(Yes, that's right: a dime on the dollar.)

Bluegreen is about 25% to get developer options. But what it does is allow the developer to sell every week like it's a prime week. Still, I think DVC is worth more being points than it would be as fixed weeks or floating weeks within a season and that was that portion of the Point (no pun intended). Many of the points systems are worth less because one often does not get all the options with the resale purchases. Resales that do include the options go for more but still a fraction.

 

[gmboy95]

Does anybody else feel DVC is loosing it's lustre? I just feel that I am now one of the masses as opposed to being one of the "choosen few". When we bought in we felt that we owned a little bit of the magic. But it seems like they are announcing new resorts every few months. Expanding at an enormous rate but not offering anything additional to the existing owners. I hope this has come out right. Don't get me wrong, I love our DVC ownership. Maybe I'm just losing the magic?

I have always looked at DVC as a family thing....I dont care if there are a million members, as long as we still have the same experience when we go....my only fear is that capacity of the resorts may outpace capacity of the parks...other then that it has not lost its magic for me even a little

 

[Brian Noble]

Still, I think DVC is worth more being points than it would be as fixed weeks or floating weeks within a season and that was that portion of the Point.

Absolutely agreed.

Many of the points systems are worth less because one often does not get all the options with the resale purchases.

Wyndham used to include the "VIP" benefits on resale, but discontinued doing so. The drop in resale was modest because the market has (correctly, IMO) determined that the VIP benefits are worth little---perhaps 10% of retail pricing. Other systems (like Starwood's) do have a much broader split depending on whether it's a Mandatory resort or not, and TravelShare seems to have had a significant impact on WorldMark resale pricing. I'm not certain, but it seems that Bluegreen's "authorized resellers" command only a modest premium, not a significant one. Diamond/Sunterra is the system I'm least familiar with (and with the various forms of Club/Trust deeds, possibly the most complicated.)

 

[Brian Noble]

On a semi-related note: to me, the real advantage of points is that owners pay annual fees proportional to the value of their stake. The fixed-week, everyone pays an equal share model is fine in the few markets with true year-round demand, but for sharply seasonal resorts, that model is very risky. If the low season owners start defaulting on MF payments in appreciable numbers, Bad Things (tm) happen. At least with points, someone who only owns enough to book low time pay less than those with sufficient ownerships to book high demand time.

 

[Dean]

Wyndham used to include the "VIP" benefits on resale, but discontinued doing so. The drop in resale was modest because the market has (correctly, IMO) determined that the VIP benefits are worth little---perhaps 10% of retail pricing. Other systems (like Starwood's) do have a much broader split depending on whether it's a Mandatory resort or not, and TravelShare seems to have had a significant impact on WorldMark resale pricing. I'm not certain, but it seems that Bluegreen's "authorized resellers" command only a modest premium, not a significant one. Diamond/Sunterra is the system I'm least familiar with (and with the various forms of Club/Trust deeds, possibly the most complicated.)

With BG points the sale price is about double for resales that are qualified vs those that are not. With each system it's going to depend in large part on the perceived value of the options that are restricted for non qualified resales. With DVC there is no difference, with BG there is a very big difference currently.

 

[wildernessDad]

I purchased what I purchased - long-term Disney-based vacations. I love it. DVC is special to me for that reason.

 

[Dean]

On a semi-related note: to me, the real advantage of points is that owners pay annual fees proportional to the value of their stake. The fixed-week, everyone pays an equal share model is fine in the few markets with true year-round demand, but for sharply seasonal resorts, that model is very risky. If the low season owners start defaulting on MF payments in appreciable numbers, Bad Things (tm) happen. At least with points, someone who only owns enough to book low time pay less than those with sufficient ownerships to book high demand time.

Boy that's another long night at the bar discussing that one. The truth is that the cost of unit maint is the same year round and there are modest savings for off season to general resort management, housekeeping, etc. The problem is that while a fixed week or season system has lower season owners paying more as a percent of what it would cost for them to rent for cash, it's not that they're overpaying compared to what the true costs are. The truth is that the maint fees for off weeks are often more than the inherent value of the unit for truly seasonal resorts. From a purely $$$ standpoint points actually has the reverse problem for seasonal resorts, those that have fewer points are actually being subsidized by those that have more. Reason being is there is an inherent cost to the system for each member. Those points systems that are the most fair have a per member charge then so much per point on top of that. That approach also encourages larger points packages and thus fewer members so an even larger savings to the system.

 

[Brian Noble]

With BG points the sale price is about double for resales that are qualified

Interesting. That's a higher spread than I had gathered, though I confess I'm not looking all that hard. I need another timeshare like I need an extra hole in my head...

In all honesty, I don't have a good explanation for why Wyndham resale values are as low as they are. VIP is essentially worthless, there is a huge pool of resorts, and there is a lot of tour traffic exposing the brand. The annual fees are a little bit high, but not outrageously so, depending on the specific property you own. For example, a peak-season 2BR at Bonnet Creek would be roughly $1100 per year.

I don't particularly mind, though, as I bought resale.

 

[Brian Noble]

Boy that's another long night at the bar discussing that one.

That's true. I'm considering things only from the owner-value end, not the per-owner cost end. But, from the perspective of an owner wondering whether or not he's going to continue to pay on a mud-season week, or allow it to go into foreclosure (or worse, pay an up-front fee or postcard outfit to take it off his hands), that's probably the perspective that matters.

There have been a few low-end resorts that have already faced the death-spiral of off-season defections, and dealing with it is tricky.

My two fixed weeks are both very high-demand time, but they are at a seasonal resort. I'd still be getting decent value if my MFs were higher relative to low season weeks, even though my "cost" is not any higher at all. Luckily, the resort is in an area with at least some off-season draw and has a strong owner-run board, so hopefully we'll continue to navigate the waters.

Those points systems that are the most fair have a per member charge then so much per point on top of that.

Wyndham's works this way; they have a sliding scale of program fees. Smaller packages pay higher per-point costs, with a minimum charge. Larger packages pay more in absolute terms, but lower per-point.

 

[jarestel]

I suppose I never really thought of DVC as "special" in the first place. It's simply a pre-paid vacation plan at a place I know I will visit often so it made sense for me to purchase. Of course, overcrowding (parks, restaurants, booking difficulties, etc) is one of the factors that would definitely lead me to re-evaluate whether I'm in for the long run. But "special" doesn't factor into it for me at all.

 

[eporter66]

Does anybody else feel DVC is loosing it's lustre? I just feel that I am now one of the masses as opposed to being one of the "choosen few". When we bought in we felt that we owned a little bit of the magic. But it seems like they are announcing new resorts every few months. Expanding at an enormous rate but not offering anything additional to the existing owners.

I'm not sure what you mean by one of the masses vs. the chosen few? We DID choose to join DVC but were not chosen??

Anyway - I am enjoying the expansion of DVC. It gives us more options for places to stay. Disney has done such a fantastic job with their existing resorts, and AKV is a great idea. Now with the Kingdom Tower going up - it is just another experience we hope to have someday at WDW.

Do you feel that WDW does not do enough for DVC members? In my view we joined only because we love Disney, were impressed with the DVC Resorts, and felt that a WDW vacation would always be something to look forward to. We have used our membership to go much more than we ever would have otherwise.

 

[NYMomof4]

I am in the category of those who feel lucky and just to have the opportunity to be a DVC Member. I really never forget that, in spite of occasional glitches in our trips, which have been few. I've been able to stay at all the Disney DVC resorts at least once in the past 2 1/2 years and each one has had something unique to enjoy. Every new DVC resort feels like a bonus to me, since I can use my points to stay there.

As I watch the DVC points costs go (as well as Disney resort room prices) up I am glad I purchased. It is pre-paid and for me a guarantee in advance of vacations.

 

[agamich]

We have been members since 1994 and received a great perk of LOS Passes thru 2000. We got 2 passes for a one bedroom reservation and 4 for a two bedroom. We have used it every year except one where we banked it to have enough for a "land and sea" vacation. Our sons are 18 and 16 now and still enjoy going. It has been great for our family. We stayed at OKW every year except for one year at WLV and a few days at GC at DL. It does seem like we are no longer the "chosen few" but I still prefer it to spending all that money for a hotel room or staying off property in our other timeshare (which we use only for trading since we bought into DVC). I feel that we got our fair share of perks (though more would not be turned down if offered).

 

[Dean]

Interesting. That's a higher spread than I had gathered, though I confess I'm not looking all that hard.

It does vary more given there's no ROFR. This has been a change in the last 18 months or so given that BG has stopped offering many of the benefits to those that don't buy from an authorized resale agent. For Gold (must buy from BG going forward) 2 months extra to book any and all reservations, can cancel up until 10 days out with NO penalty, access to select connections (similar to BVTC but using Shell's resorts), multiple upgrade options and the like. Still the points are worth 2 to 10 times the value of the underlying week at many of the resorts and for many weeks.

There have been a few low-end resorts that have already faced the death-spiral of off-season defections, and dealing with it is tricky.

While it's a hard pill to swallow for owners there, having a few very seasonal, poor quality and poorly run resorts fail is likely a good thing for the market as a whole.

 

[corpcomp]

We bought not because DVC was special, but because we were tired of staying in standard style hotel rooms regardless of the resort.

We realized that we would be coming there for many year and wanted to stay in a resort that we were more comfortable in and could walk to the parks, not to mention SAB.


DVC could build another hundred DVC resorts but we will still be comfortable in BCV - and the icing on the cake is:

1. Free internet coming
2. Free food - through our Visa points
3. Gellato!!
4. Eventually LCD TVs
5. Really comfortable beds
6. SAB

Buy at KT, not all that interested - we have enough points for two weeks a year.

What we would like to see:

1. A DVC deal with the airlines that would not cost more than $200 round trip from anywhere in the country. Chances of ever seeing that - nil
2. A federal tax deduction for vacation expenses - nil
3. All Disney products made in America - nil