Is Disney fully on board with plans for high-speed rail?

[CR Resort Fan 4 Life]

http://thedailydisney.com/blog/2010/05/is-disney-fully-on-board-with-plans-for-high-speed-rail/

 

[skiingfast]

I think the biggest interest that guests would have is going to port canaveral. It's not a cheap trip, and being able to go MCO to there every hour would be just fine. Going from Disney to there maybe less important.

More so I think Disney's interest would be getting visitors taking day trips from Tampa and Miami. Those are big population centers and it would let WDW have some of the guest advantages that DL does.

 

[Lewisc]

It sounds like Disney will give them the land for a station but the train will have to compete with DME for passengers from MCO.

 

[skiingfast]

This makes me think that as said the train would have to compete with DME that either DME would go and the train would be free. Or DME will add a fee.

 

[rwdavis2]

This project is a boondggle of the worst kind. High speed rail over that short of a distance is a huge waste of money.
BD

 

[doconeill]

Disney could possibly save money by dropping DME. The train would still bring them to Disney, and wherever the station is they can shuttle guests to their resorts and they would still be locked on property for the most part. Fewer buses would be needed to shuttle.

However, if Disney feels that they could somehow lose an advantage that DME gives, then it would remain, and Disney's "support" of the train would be limited.

 

[Micca]

Seems like Disney would love to have someone else responsible for the operation of a system designed to bring guests directly to them. Why would Disney want to continue the expense of owning, operating, maintaining those buses, hiring and training the drivers, and the insurance/legal exposure involved? As long as a direct stop at Universal Studios or Sea World isn't involved, what's not to like? Also, if the rail system is a success, won't we see it put into place in other cities as well? Atlanta anyone?

I realize it's probably not that simple, but a better informed person will be along shortly to set me straight.

 

[doconeill]

Disney already avoids most of that by outsourcing the operation to Mears...now, Mears is probably very much against the rail project

 

[skiingfast]

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2453952

Similar thread.

Doconeill, I don't just think Mears is against it. But possibly some regional airlines and greyhound.

 

[Lewisc]

DME dispatches buses every 15-20 minutes. A high speed train might run every hour. Disney would still need buses to take passengers from the train station to the resorts. I don't know how much time (if any) the train would save guests.

I read the article linked by the OP and articles referenced. It sounds like some knowledgeable people are convinced Disney will give the land but continue to run DME in competition with the train.

This is only specuilation but it's entirely possible the "wholesale" fare Disney is paying Mears to transport guests is less then retail fare for the train. The proposed station on I Drive near the convention center may have a lot more potential.

 

[skiingfast]

I don't know that the trains will be infrequent. The idea of upgrading the rail system is to make more usable and profitable runs. The only place the Us has this is the northeast. While the Acela Express which is by all indications what they aim to duplicate in other areas including florida.

The Acela though only has a handful of stops. It runs hourly. But it is supplemented by two more trains per hour making regional stops. Plus the standard long trip Amtraks.

If this does come to reality in California and Florida there appears to be two views of what will happen. One is the national view of people outside the actual areas. Where the trains will have long fast runs, rivaling airplanes. The local view is the trains will stop everywhere convienient and serve many small towns taking people into the cities.

It's a problem for Amtrak that it runs off the later model. It's not because of what people want it's a hold over from the time of steam locomotives. They needed more water and had to stop frequently. These little towns each got a station.

Look at the route of the Empire builder that runs from Chicago to Seatle. Between the two is only one city that supports a major league team, minneapolis. It travels across North Dakota and Montana, how many cites other than Helena and Fargo can you name in these states? Is it surprising that it stops in 6 other places in North Dakota and 12 times in Montana, and doesn't go through any of Montana's largest cities. Two states being served that have a combined population of less than greater orlando.

What stops in florida will consistently generate large passenger numbers?
Do they require a commuter train of high speed rail?

 

[Lewisc]

The Acela works because you have a lot of people who want to travel between BOS,NYC, PHL,Baltimore and Washington. A lot of business travelers. The time is competitive with flying when you consider the time it takes to get to the airport and go through security. Traffic in the NE is legendary.

I have no idea how many people go between Tampa and Orlando. I don't know how many people would rather take a train over driving. You need strong demand to support frequent (hourly) service. It won't work if the trains don't run when the passengers want to go.

It won't work if the number crunchers thinks 2 million DME passengers will be paying $30-$40 R/T for rail transportation from MCO to a station in WDW. Mears charges around $30 R/T and I wouldn't be surprised if a "bean counter" thinks customers will pay a premium price for rail. It won't work if Disney decides DME buses from MCO is a more efficient, and cheaper, way to go.

The R/T Acela fare between Washington and NYC is over $300. Families on a budget are still going to drive from Tampa to Orlando.

 

[skiingfast]

The Acela works because you have a lot of people who want to travel between BOS,NYC, PHL,Baltimore and Washington. A lot of business travelers. The time is competitive with flying when you consider the time it takes to get to the airport and go through security. Traffic in the NE is legendary.

I have no idea how many people go between Tampa and Orlando. I don't know how many people would rather take a train over driving. You need strong demand to support frequent (hourly) service. It won't work if the trains don't run when the passengers want to go.

It won't work if the number crunchers thinks 2 million DME passengers will be paying $30-$40 R/T for rail transportation from MCO to a station in WDW. Mears charges around $30 R/T and I wouldn't be surprised if a "bean counter" thinks customers will pay a premium price for rail. It won't work if Disney decides DME buses from MCO is a more efficient, and cheaper, way to go.

The R/T Acela fare between Washington and NYC is over $300. Families on a budget are still going to drive from Tampa to Orlando.

Tampa to Orlando I4 carries about a 274,000 vehicles per day. They hope the train will carry 10%. Sounds like fare a estimate to me. I imagine they can figure that by compairing track paralel to roads elsewhere in the US. The train is supposed to operate at speeds of 168mph the Acela trains go up to 150mph. The Acela trains carry about 300 passengers. 27000 one passengers(based on 1 per car now using train) / 300 seats per train = 90 trains a day that's about a train every 15 minutes.

The MCO to WDW with a station near Celebration is about 25 miles from MCO to it's Tamps 80 miles. A short run on the Northweat corridor New Haven, Ct into New York is 80 miles and cost $95 on Acela and $35 on the regional.

The Acela is a true high speed train, the regional is not. It only runs up to 125mph. The Acela though is a first class/business class only train raising the cost of travel.

While the trains in the northwest have the advatage of passing traditional bad traffic the Tampa/Orlando line is to bypass growing traffic. The train would run in place of adding on lanes to the freeway.

 

[seashoreCM]

Going to Disney, the train from the airport together with shuttle buses from Disney Station to resorts will be attractive. People will probably accept the perhaps half an hour greater travel time compared with a discontinued DME if the overall fare is noticeably lower than Mears' regular shuttle.

But going home, I am sure people will have to leave for the train station earlier compared with Magical Express.

 

[yitbos96bb]

This project is a boondggle of the worst kind. High speed rail over that short of a distance is a huge waste of money.
BD

No, its not. It actually makes a lot of sense and will be wonderful for the region. Plus as the high speed network expands, Eventually, the line will link all along most of the east coast with the Northern line and the Atlanta to DC line.

 

[skiingfast]

Train travel and freight for that matter is changing. Congress is going to essentially remove a speed limit by changing saftey regulations. Trains used to be faster in the US 100 years ago. The diesel engines that replaced the steam could now move faster all the time but are not allowed to.

Also the idea Amtrak uses to run trains in the Northeast with express and locals will be spreading as highspeed rail is built and reserved for express service.

A huge portain of the stimulus bill is being used to make over and under passes instead of road crossings.

Consider that it is 8B and Florida is getting a big piece of it at 1.25. They are only looking at setting up three high speed rail systems in the US. The rest of the money is to upgrade the low speed rail lines.

 

[rwdavis2]

No, its not. It actually makes a lot of sense and will be wonderful for the region. Plus as the high speed network expands, Eventually, the line will link all along most of the east coast with the Northern line and the Atlanta to DC line.

Sorry but I have to disagree. High (or low) speed rail over short distances makes no sense. If I understand the project correctly it's only from Tampa to Orlando. How much time are they going to cut off the travel time from Tampa to Orlando? A few minutes? Nothing that justifies the cost of the ticket or the huge expense of building it. You look at the cost of an Amtrak ticket lately. It's usually more than flying.

It may be wonderful for the region in construction jobs and infusion of $$ but it's a huge boondoggle for the those of us paying for it.

Long hauls say from DC to NY to Boston make sense as the travel times for air vs. rail in these corridors is comparable. (This includes the times wasted in airports and travel time to/from the airport. Rail usually gets you right to the middle of the cities).

But what's going to stop every Senator from demanding a stop in their state along the East Coast? Stopping every couple of hundred miles defeats the entire purpose.
Bob

 

[ambertides]

From what I've read, tickets are estimated to be around $20, one way from Tampa to Orlando. That's $80 for DH & I, round trip, plus whatever it costs to park in Tampa (we're about 20 minutes west). We pay $20 for gas, round trip, and it's about a 1.5 hour drive, that we take often enough that it doesn't seem very long at all. For the extra $60 we could toss a tent in the trunk and stay at FW and get two days out of it, plus not have the $28 in parking over two days.

So Tampa <-> Orlando is not very appealing to us, though if we had an older/less reliable car... maybe. But then we would not have APs, either, and it would be to replace renting a car for a single 3-4+ day trip, not 1-3 days a month.

Phase 2 is something we will use, when/if it comes about, and depending on which route they choose.

 

[rwdavis2]

From what I've read, tickets are estimated to be around $20, one way from Tampa to Orlando. That's $80 for DH & I, round trip, plus whatever it costs to park in Tampa (we're about 20 minutes west). We pay $20 for gas, round trip, and it's about a 1.5 hour drive, that we take often enough that it doesn't seem very long at all. For the extra $60 we could toss a tent in the trunk and stay at FW and get two days out of it, plus not have the $28 in parking over two days.

So Tampa <-> Orlando is not very appealing to us, though if we had an older/less reliable car... maybe. But then we would not have APs, either, and it would be to replace renting a car for a single 3-4+ day trip, not 1-3 days a month.

Phase 2 is something we will use, when/if it comes about, and depending on which route they choose.

I can see you understand the trade-offs. I used to work for a company in the heavy rail business. When there was lots of talk of MagLev projects in the early 90's the head of the company said he'd gladly take the work but said MagLev made no sense economically. Meaning that current train technology at the time could hit speeds about 1/3 less than MagLev and over the distances between destinations (mainly East Coast) the small time savings never justified the huge cost and experimental nature of MagLev.

It's the same for this project. The cost of taking rail over very short distance that don't get you exactly to your destination makes no sense. It works in NY City because of the good feeder system from outlying areas and the huge number of stations all across NYC.
BD

 

[skiingfast]

How much time are they going to cut off the travel time from Tampa to Orlando? A few minutes? Nothing that justifies the cost of the ticket or the huge expense of building it. You look at the cost of an Amtrak ticket lately. It's usually more than flying.
Bob

The DOT expects the travel time from Tampa to Orlando to be cut by just more than a third.