International Baccalaureate?

[mtemm]

is anybody familiar with this program in schools? would love any feedback/thoughts on it from those who are familiar with it!

 

[HM]

Not offered in our schools.
When visiting colleges this past fall, it seems they look very favorably on kids who attend them and do well in them.

 

[MoniqueU]

They offer it here and so far 2 of my kids have been invited. It is a great program and if they offered it at nicer school my kids probably would of done it. It is offered here at lesser performing schools. My DD has 2 friends that are in the program in Jr also at lesser performing schools. The girls are doing wonderfully but the mom said they feel segmented away from the other kids at teh school. Colleges will absolutely view it as favorable.

 

[shortbun]

These schools have a grading scale of 93-100 = A, 86-92 =B and so forth. tougher to get the A in other words and they also have more advanced classes after AP. Here, our only school is a magnate-lottery school. We are obviously 'Waiting For Superman.'

 

[terribm]

My son will be attending our IB magnet school next year. It might be kinda unusual but we have a middle school (6-10) that is dedicated to the IB program exclusively. I like the fact that everyone in the school is doing the same academic program. If a student wants to continue the program to receive the IB diploma, they have to attend a low performing HS where they would be a small minority of the school's population. It is a excellarated academic program that is looked at very positively from college admissions.

 

[Geoff_M]

OP, if you search on this forum, you'll find several past threads that talk about IB programs with lots of detail: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2329549

It is a excellarated academic program that is looked at very positively from college admissions.

I think you will find that this benefit is VERY oversold. Our personal experience and impressions from talking to other parents pointed to the main benefits being intangible. Namely, it may help your student develop study habits that will benefit them in college. While there are certainly some colleges and universities that recognize IB program graduates, no one we talked to had a child that benefited from it in terms of admission or advanced placement credit. It also have some downsides, such as a rigid curriculum that focuses on general course work and doesn't allow for preparing for specialty degrees in college such as those in the sciences.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

My son attends a middle school that has the IB's Middle Years Program. MYP, and the PYP (primary) are designed to be more inclusive of all abilities, and are sort of an overlay to the regular county wide program. In our area when MYP is offered it's school wide, not something you test into.

We also offer the IB program in our county. There are several magnet programs that kids can test into which expect kids to complete the entire IB program. Our local school offers IB school wide, and kids can take the entire program or can pick and choose. For example, a child might decide that they want to take IB Film and Chinese, on grade level math and history, and AP physics and Computer science.

My understanding is that many schools offer credit for IB exams on par with AP exams. The classes have slightly different content (e.g. AP English might be reading different books from IB classes, not harder or less hard but not neccessarily the same titles) and the IB has a reputation for having more analysis and application while AP has more memorization and factual knowledge.

I think that a college is going to look at a student with a lot of IB classes, the same way they'd look at a student with a lot of AP classes. They know it's challenging, and take that into account when analyzing grades etc . . . I don't think it's some kind of magic ticket to a top college, but I do think that if your kid goes to a school that offers one or the other or both, and don't take them the college will notice that and wonder why you didn't seek out the challenge. I also think that IB/AP are particularly important for kids coming from underperforming schools or very small schools as they can prove that their skills measure up on a national level.

 

[maddiel]

My daughter is in the last term of the IB program and it has been an excellent opportunity for her.

It's a two year program (although there are elementary and middle schools which follow a similar model) and schools hear offer a prep year in grade 10 (which is the first year of high school here) A little more than half of the kids who took IB prep with DD17 continued into the actual IB program and all but one or two are still in it and expected to graduate. A lot of the students who chose not to contiue it were trying to do a IB diploma and meet the requirements of a bilingual certificate which is a really hard combination.

You take six subjects - main language, secondary language, math, a social science, a science and a fine art - you can sub a science or social science for the fine art. Three courses are at Standard Level and three are at Higher level (which means about 40% more class time and more in depth study) You also take a philosopy class called Theory of Knowledge, (ToK) write an Extended Essay (EE) of @3500 words and must log 150 hours (combined) of Creativity, Action and Service (CAS)

DD17 takes HL English, HL History, HL Theatre, SL Biology, SL French and SL Math Studies.

The six courses are given marks from 1 to 7 and there are up to three bonus points that can be earned by your EE/ToK marks, for a total potential mark of 45. A pass is generally 28 points. Our school also gives an alternate percentage mark transcript for comparison purposes. So if she got a 79% in the course work in English, that might be an IB6 on her IB transcript but on her alternate transcript it is shown as a 92% (It's taken me over two years to get my head around this part of the program!) Ask at your child's school how they compare IB marks with non IB marks for rankings.

I think there's she's had more work than non-IB students at her school, but except for a few crunch periods, she really isn't overworked. She loves the way the courses are taught - lots of independence and lots of discussion. A perfectionist who expects marks in the upper nineties will find it very frustrating. I feel she is very well prepared for university. We need to double check when she gets her final marks but he school she plans to attend will give her 3 full course credits.

IB exams are written in November and May at the same time world wide and can be up to 85% of the final mark which you don't learn until early July. At her school, your predicted score as of April is actually what determines university entrance, scholarships and graduation.

University applications in Canada are WAY different than in the US so I cannot speak to that.

Hope this helps,

M.

 

[LIDisneyFan]

My daughter did IB, got accepted to every college she applied to (her SAT scores were just a little above average). Most colleges create with own GPA, and IB diplomas are weighter heavier due to the international standardization of grading.

What she loved about it was that she is so prepared for college-having 4 hours of HW every night and learning to manager her time has put her in the position where she can handle college better than many freshmen. Her style of learngin (self-taught rather than teacher led) suits University life very well.

She also has 19 college credits from the program.

 

[abdmom]

maddiel gave a great rundown of the IB diploma program, which I teach. So far, out of my 25 seniors, one has been accepted to Cambridge and one to MIT. They are very good students, but not superstars.

There is also the PYP (K-5) and MYP programs (6-10) which are school is just implementing now.

 

[Geoff_M]

My understanding is that many schools offer credit for IB exams on par with AP exams.

I think in reality very few colleges offer credit for standard IB exam results. Even though our daughter opted not to complete all of the IB courses for the diploma endorsement, she still took a couple of IB classes her Senior year and took the exams. When we took her to her university for the start of her Freshman year, we visited the Registrar's office to see about the process for getting her credit for her AP & IB exam results. The university staffer that we talked to had never heard of "International Baccalaureate". She had to go get the head of the Registrar's office to come talk to us. Her boss knew what "IB" was, but said that the university did not recognize IB exams for college credit. This is consistent with our daughter's friends' experiences at their schools, both Big 10 and well-known east coast schools. I'm sure some schools DO give credit for IB, but it appears that most don't.

 

[maddiel]

Go to www.ibo.org and search for university recognition. (The site was down when I just checked it.) They keep records on how different universities recognize IB course/diploma. Most universities we looked at give equivalent course credit for HL courses with at least a 5 but others offered more or less. Mount Allison, which would probably be the top small liberal arts university in Canada, gives a full year credit.

So it might make no difference or it might make a big difference - you need to look into it before you decide where to go.

M.

 

[brerrabbit]

Our district has one IB program and it is at an elementry school grades K through 4. I have looked at the program on several occasions and really have not found anything terribly great about it. It is a program that is highly touted and used in Europe and proponents sing it's praises and how it really helps students going to college. They point to acceptance rates from the European programs. Only problem is we don't have the same education system as Europe. Over there they offer the non college/ trades route of study starting in the equivilant of our 9th grade. So by default the number of students aspiring to go to college are considerably less because they weed/ opt out so many students to specialized vocational training in high school. Secondly while the program may have it's merits the reality is it takes specialized teachers who have been trained in the system and many, many districts simply cannot afford to support such a program in the current economic environment. Schools are facing huge budget shortfalls and dedicating that much of their resources to a program that benifits so few is just not fair. In our district when they used federal "No Child Left Behind" money to start the program, many including myself said that the NCLB money would evaporate at the first sign of economic problems and if we dedicated the district to pursuing it we would wind up footing the bill. They planned to take the program all the way through high school. Sure enough, federal dollars were cut off, cost was to big and now we have a K-4 program at one school and have announced it will go no further because there is no money.

It may be the greatsest program in the world for a few kids and if you have access to it and the child wants to do it, then go for it, but realize in the world we live in today many districts are having to deal with coming up with enough money just to keep the doors open, much less fund programs like these.

 

[Geoff_M]

Go to www.ibo.org and search for university recognition. (The site was down when I just checked it.) They keep records on how different universities recognize IB course/diploma. Most universities we looked at give equivalent course credit for HL courses with at least a 5 but others offered more or less. Mount Allison, which would probably be the top small liberal arts university in Canada, gives a full year credit.

So it might make no difference or it might make a big difference - you need to look into it before you decide where to go.

M.

maddiel, I was just looking at that list myself. Let me be clear, I'm not "anti-IB" nor am I one of the people that think it's some part of a UN "one world government" conspiracy. My problem is that I think the advantages of the program are oversold to parents. If you look at the list of colleges, you'll see that what's "recognized" are mostly the highest score on the higher level exams. So, at best, that puts them on par with our AP classes and exams. Colleges also make admissions selections long before students take their exams and complete their IB diplomas, so there's little reason to believe that just being enrolled in IB classes has much, if any, sway in admissions decisions compared to standardized test scores, GPA, class ranking, etc. at the time of admissions. Again, there's not much to be gained over traditional AP classes. As I said earlier, the coursework is also pretty rigid. Our daughter is a Chemical Engineering major in college. She wanted to take IB Chem and IB Physics in high school, but there was no way to do that and complete her IB diploma. Those were two very important areas of knowledge that she needed for her college coursework. So, she "dropped out" of the running for an IB diploma and was able to take them as a "non-IB" student.

Depending how you look at it, one other advantage/disadvantage of the IB program is the workload. They throw a ton of work at the students. Some kids can handle it just fine, and some others can't. If they can learn to cope with it, it'll probably help them come college time. Our daughter was more in the latter category, while she could have managed her time better in HS, her Junior year she often had to stay up until 2-3 AM to complete her work due the next day. It literally was zapping the fun out of her life. We were getting e-mails from her teachers expressing concern about her emotional well-being. She felt driven to keep with the IB program because all her friends were doing it. My wife and I had to talk her out of doing All-IB. Her Senior year she abandoned the IB diploma and opted for a mix of IB and non-IB classes... and she was happy again. She's now completed her 3rd semester at a though technical university and has a 3.98 GPA going at this point.

If IB works for a kid, then that's great. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of it. But for parents considering it, I'd recommend that they look at it closer to see if it's a fit for their kid's educational learning style, habits, and aspirations. I'd also recommend that those same parents forget about any hopes that an IB gold sticker on their child's diploma will give them a leg-up on getting into the college of their dreams or provide them extra college credit vs. other means.

 

[LisaR]

I know five kids that have attended our local IB program. The program is for middle school through high school.

Child #1 - Very smart boy. Did all of middle school and high school. Did not go onto college. Feels he is completely burned out from school. He has a web design business and a few other things in the works. He is smart and will probably make a decent living somehow.

Child #2 - Sister of the above boy. Also very smart. Went through 10th grade and transferred to public school. She is currently attending a well known college on a very good scholarship.

Child #3 - Brother of the two kids above. He is in his senior year of H.S. in the IB program. Like his brother, he does not want to go to college. He is very burned out and wishes he had transferred like his sister.

Child #4 - Not related to the above family! Very smart girl and also a great golfer. Started in the middle school IB program and went through 9th grade. She did not have enough time for golf plus the IB program. She transferred to the public school and is in her senior year and ranked #1. She has multiple full ride scholarship offers to some top universities. She has not decided yet where she will attend but said she is making her final decision within a few weeks.

Child #5 - Very smart girl that lacks social skills. Honestly, she is one of the smartest kids I have ever encountered and I imagine her IQ is quite high. She has all 5's on every AP test (and she took a bunch of them) and almost perfect SAT & ACT scores. She studies night and day and has gone between #1 and #2 ranking in the school. She will be attending our local state university. The same university that my daughter will attend.

I know my sampling is only five kids but I am really not impressed with the results. I had the option of sending my oldest there and I am very happy that we decided against it.

 

[golfgal]

They offer it here and so far 2 of my kids have been invited. It is a great program and if they offered it at nicer school my kids probably would of done it. It is offered here at lesser performing schools. My DD has 2 friends that are in the program in Jr also at lesser performing schools. The girls are doing wonderfully but the mom said they feel segmented away from the other kids at teh school. Colleges will absolutely view it as favorable.

Same here, program offered at underperforming schools as an option for some of the brighter kids to get away from the less motivated students. As for being favorable for colleges, no more or less so then AP or any post-secondary options offered at other schools. If you look at any college website they lump the IB programs in with AP, where they may give credit or not depending on the school.

These schools have a grading scale of 93-100 = A, 86-92 =B and so forth. tougher to get the A in other words and they also have more advanced classes after AP. Here, our only school is a magnate-lottery school. We are obviously 'Waiting For Superman.'

Well, tougher depending on your school and what the grading scale they use. There have been many threads about various grading scales at different schools and many have the bottom of an A at 94%, making it harder at those schools to get an A then in the IB program .

 

[MyManGoofy!]

My son was a part of his middle school's IB and then a semester of it in 9th grade. He dropped it after that 1st HS semester. It was too high pressure and too focused - he was one stressed out kid.

We did just as well if not better by taking all available AP courses and then dual enrollment once that opened up for his HS. He graduated from HS, 10 credits short of an AA.

Maybe you could look at AP and dual enrollment instead?

 

[maddiel]

maddiel, I was just looking at that list myself. Let me be clear, I'm not "anti-IB" nor am I one of the people that think it's some part of a UN "one world government" conspiracy. My problem is that I think the advantages of the program are oversold to parents.

I think that happens a lot. Our province went from 3 school offering IB to 12 just before my daughter started high school. We heard both over the top praise and dire warnings while we were thinking about it. She ended up in IB because a) she really wanted it and b) the grade 10 diploma prep was a chance to see if she was a fit for the program before she was in too deep. I'm curious - does your DD's school offer anything like that?

If you look at the list of colleges, you'll see that what's "recognized" are mostly the highest score on the higher level exams. So, at best, that puts them on par with our AP classes and exams. Colleges also make admissions selections long before students take their exams and complete their IB diplomas, so there's little reason to believe that just being enrolled in IB classes has much, if any, sway in admissions decisions compared to standardized test scores, GPA, class ranking, etc. at the time of admissions.

DD's acceptance was based sole on her most current predicted marks. What scholarships she gets will be based on her next set which will be very close to her final predicted marks. Like I said before, the whole university applications thing here and there are quite different.

Again, there's not much to be gained over traditional AP classes.

AP classes weren't an option for my DD at her high school. When I look at what DD17 has gotten from the program a lot of it is centred around the EE/ToK/CAS parts of the program and the internal assessments - the research, and the writing and the analyzing, and the presenting, etc. I think it's hard to really compare AP and IB because one is a menu and one is a package deal and that's a little like apples and oranges.

As I said earlier, the coursework is also pretty rigid. Our daughter is a Chemical Engineering major in college. She wanted to take IB Chem and IB Physics in high school, but there was no way to do that and complete her IB diploma. Those were two very important areas of knowledge that she needed for her college coursework. So, she "dropped out" of the running for an IB diploma and was able to take them as a "non-IB" student.

I really think this is is a school specific issue, not an IB issue. At DD's school over 80% of the IB students in her year are taking 2 sciences. The rest are in Theatre with DD (who would rather be in Geography or Economics or Art, but they aren't offered at her school.) I agree that more choice would be better, but I also like that they are forced to be well rounded and unfortunately they don't have the critical mass of students to offer much more choices. DD's school has the demand for more sciences but not for more arts/social sciences.

Depending how you look at it, one other advantage/disadvantage of the IB program is the workload. They throw a ton of work at the students. Some kids can handle it just fine, and some others can't. If they can learn to cope with it, it'll probably help them come college time. Our daughter was more in the latter category, while she could have managed her time better in HS, her Junior year she often had to stay up until 2-3 AM to complete her work due the next day. It literally was zapping the fun out of her life. We were getting e-mails from her teachers expressing concern about her emotional well-being. She felt driven to keep with the IB program because all her friends were doing it. My wife and I had to talk her out of doing All-IB. Her Senior year she abandoned the IB diploma and opted for a mix of IB and non-IB classes... and she was happy again. She's now completed her 3rd semester at a though technical university and has a 3.98 GPA going at this point.

It's too bad it didn't work out for her and I'm glad she was able to transition to something that worked better. DD10's current teacher's daughter was in the first crop of IB students at DD17s school and it was much harder on the students then than now. Trust me that DD17 is not super organized - it's just that the style of the work fits her.

If IB works for a kid, then that's great. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of it. But for parents considering it, I'd recommend that they look at it closer to see if it's a fit for their kid's educational learning style, habits, and aspirations.

Totally agree! I don't know if when DD10 gets to high school she'll want to do it or not - she's different kid than her sister. I'll probably encourage her to take the diploma prep and see how she finds it though. I know that DD17 would not be looking at the opportunities she is now if she hadn't tried it and decided to pursue it.

I'd also recommend that those same parents forget about any hopes that an IB gold sticker on their child's diploma will give them a leg-up on getting into the college of their dreams or provide them extra college credit vs. other means.

I think "forget any hopes" is a bit extreme. Be realistic about earning credit maybe? Credit for HL courses at a 5?/6/7 seems pretty standard

M.

(I hope you don't read this as argumentative - I found reading what you wrote very interesting and it gave me food for thought)

 

[mtemm]

thanks everyone! I am glad to see differing views and it has given me a lot of info, to go along with what I am reading online.

 

[Geoff_M]

maddiel, no I don't think you're being argumentative at all...

No, our kids' school doesn't offer any sort of 10th Grade sampling of the IB program. They offer "advanced" classes in many subjects, but none associated with the IB program or designed to be an "intro" to IB coursework. Their official response to that in their IB FAQ document is that their 9th and 10th grade curriculum is "aligned" with the IB program and will provide sufficient preparation. The school also has no prerequisites for entering the IB program.

And you're right, the Chem/Physics problem my daughter had may have been a local school issue... or, upon more thought, it might have been something like a decision to take both classes made during her Junior year that her class selection that year might not have allowed for both science classes come her Senior year. The bottom line was that she was told that she couldn't take both classes and complete the requirements for her IB diploma and she would have to choose one or the other. This was three years ago, and some of the finer details I may not be recalling.

I'll certainly agree that if your school doesn't offer another option like the AP classes that are pretty standard fare here in the US, then that certainly would affect the calculus of the situation. The bottom line for us was that after talking to parents of recent graduates of our IB program and finding out that they found that the IB diploma endorsement was a non-factor in their college admissions/scholarship process and none of them received any college credit from their IB work, and after talking to a number of the high school teachers (my wife is a teacher in the district, and teacher-to-teacher assessments are always less guarded) and hearing from them the same story, we asked ourselves "Why sit here and watch our daughter continue to go through this with no realistic additional benefit?"

We have two high schools in our city. One offers IB (ours) and the other one doesn't. Both offer AP classes. One of the criticisms of the IB program at our school is that it drains away resources that could be used for AP classes, and our school's AP program isn't as robust as it could be. Our school understandably likes to use its IB program to promote itself over "the other school" and their web site is peppered with such language to tout the IB program as one that "colleges and universities recognize the efforts and achievements of IB students" and they "award successful candidates college credit, waivers, or other benefits." It's this sort of rhetoric that I feel is overblown. However, I will give them partial credit in noting deep in the FAQ that "IB recognition varies widely among universities."