I'm insulted!

[TeresaNJ]

This is the first political thread I've posted on, but I just want to say that when I heard John Kerry make that comment about looking at the group and suspecting none of them made over $200,000, I was shocked that he said that and commented on it to my husband. I believe if Bush had said that, it would be all over the nightly news and newspapers. BTW, I'm a Republican voting for Bush and my husband is a Democrat voting for Kerry. Needless to say, we have very heated conversations at our house.

 

[Pugdog007]

I was also insulted by the comment. He is an ellitist, and any "common folk" voting for him, thinking he represents them, are simply naive.

And I DO NOT consider $200k/combined family income "rich."

 

[Island_Lauri]

Originally posted by Pugdog007
I was also insulted by the comment. He is an ellitist, and any "common folk" voting for him, thinking he represents them, are simply naive.

And I DO NOT consider $200k/combined family income "rich."

Be INSULTED if you want to but the truth of the matter is - from the US Census - http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/002484.html

"Real median household income remained unchanged between 2002 and 2003 in three of the four census regions — Northeast ($46,742), Midwest ($44,732) and West ($46,820). The exception was the South, where income declined 1.5 percent. The South continued to have the lowest median household income of all four regions ($39,823)."

"As defined by the Office of Management and Budget and updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index, the average poverty threshold for a family of four in 2003 was $18,810; for a family of three, $14,680; for a family of two, $12,015; and for unrelated individuals, $9,393."


The bottom line is if the median household income is $46K and the poverty threshold for a family of four is around $18K, then a family making $200K or more can at minimum be considered WELL OFF!

 

[septbride2002]

And you know, I think if a married couple files their taxes jointly, it's very common for two working middle aged adults to be in an income bracket of $200,000. I bet my parents are. I bet my in-laws were when they worked. One set was two elementary school teachers who had college degrees and worked to the top of their earnings bracket, and my father in law also did insurance adjusting on the side. My parents- my mom is a nurse manager and my dad works for the sewer district as a laborer. Nothing high brow, but hard working people in their 50's (or early 60's) who make decent money individually, but put together earn over that $200,000 mark. I would hardly call either set of parents "rich" but very middle class. Upper middle class I guess, but certainly not flashy millionaires!

I work in lending and do loans for people all over the United States, I also happen to live in St. Louis, MO and I can tell you we have one of the most affordabel cost of living anywhere. Due to the fact that we have lots of room, lots of housing, and a farily good job market it does not cost a lot to live here. And we also don't make a whole lot of money. MY dh and I are both in white collar jobs - he is a drafter and I'm in sales and we do not make $100,000 year combined here. My house in the Bay area or Southern California whould be worth $500,000 to $750,000. I paid around $150K for it here. Therefore I think it is safe to assume that the majority of the audience did not make an income of $200K per year. Therefore no one should feel insulted for them.

Now I am perfectly aware that you cannot figure how much someone makes by the way they dress - but unless Kerry was talking directly to you I don't see how you can feel insulted by his comment. Was it a smart comment - no. But he wasn't directing it at you.

I do consider making $200K per year rich here in St. Louis. Now out in CA, NY, or the New Englan States it probably isn't. But in St. Louis that is pretty dang good.

I look at tax returns of small business owners all the time. S-corps, partnerships, limited partnerships, sole proprietorships there are many many loopholes to help hide their income. As a mortgage lender working with self-employed people are the worse because they may make $100,000 per year but their taxes only show them making $22,000. Therefore I don't worry to much about those that are self-employed because they have ways to hide their money.

Disney Enthusiast - I have always enjoyed your post and I know you run a small company with your husband and you provide excellent work and health coverage - it sounds to me as though you run a very honest business. So please don't think I group you in with my comments on other business holders above. Not everyone is as honest.

~Amanda

 

[Pugdog007]

Originally posted by Island_Lauri
Be INSULTED if you want to but the truth of the matter is - from the US Census - http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/002484.html

"Real median household income remained unchanged between 2002 and 2003 in three of the four census regions — Northeast ($46,742), Midwest ($44,732) and West ($46,820). The exception was the South, where income declined 1.5 percent. The South continued to have the lowest median household income of all four regions ($39,823)."

"As defined by the Office of Management and Budget and updated for inflation using the Consumer Price Index, the average poverty threshold for a family of four in 2003 was $18,810; for a family of three, $14,680; for a family of two, $12,015; and for unrelated individuals, $9,393."


The bottom line is if the median household income is $46K and the poverty threshold for a family of four is around $18K, then a family making $200K or more can at minimum be considered WELL OFF!

Gee thanks for the info! I guess I'm rich then!
I wish I'd known this before. What should I do with all my money before my taxes spike??? Maybe a trip to Hawaii would hit the spot!

Or maybe I could just drive to downtown B'ham and throw money out the window of my car, which is essentially what would happen if Kerry is elected. If I want to support social programs like national healthcare, I'll check the appropriate box on my income tax return.

 

[Keli]

I think it was rude of Kerry to make this comment because I believe it's rude to comment on other's incomes. I don't care whether he was right or not, that's not the point. There are lots of things that are absolutely true and yet it's still rude to point it out. He should have got his point across with generalizations rather than being specific to the people in the room.

 

[CarolA]

There are five pages of this dribble. I don't care how much ANY of you make, how much your house cost or anything else. I find it AMAZING that people think the internet is that open and feel free to post this.


Do you really want the world to know all this about you? If you ever meet a fellow Dis Board member do you want them to turn to thier spouse and say... she makes $10,000 a year and lives in a trailer home?

 

[perdidobay]

What's worse than Kerry's comment is the US vs THEM game he and the democrats are playing...a classic game of class warfare.... ie.. all those rich old meanies who make $$$$$ and don't care about you, the little guy.
So what do we want to do in America?? Do we really want to tax to death the people who went without and lived below their means to have money for retirement and leave some money to their children and grandchildren?
What a way to encourage people to try to advance their careers and save money!
If someone works harder and makes more money than most people ( by the way, almost all millionaires in the USA are first generation rich, meaning THEY worked hard and saved all their life),
is it fair to take a larger % of their income, when just by the fact they make lots more in income they are already paying more into the system?
In my opinion, no. And I would venture a guess that those people in the lower and middle classes who work hard to get ahead for their families sake, lived frugally, and saved all their lives and ended up being one of those " wealthy" people, they would feel the same way.

 

[Disney Enthusiast]

Disney Enthusiast - I have always enjoyed your post and I know you run a small company with your husband and you provide excellent work and health coverage - it sounds to me as though you run a very honest business. So please don't think I group you in with my comments on other business holders above. Not everyone is as honest

Thanks Amanda, I appreciate you saying so.

We deal w/ so many small businesses and I see hard working entrepreneurs who work 70 and 80 hour work weeks just to stay afloat. We are in construction and work w/ lots of generals and subs who employ workers, provide health coverage, etc. We take pride in our work and maybe we surround ourselves w/ upstanding companies who convey the same values we do.

Some of our competition are gypsies who travel up and down the coast, pay under the table, pay no worker's comp, yet have children working on the site saying they are being home schooled, and work out of their trucks or homes so they have no overhead. It irks me so much to see those companies taking advantage of the system by paying no taxes or insurance, and yet reaping the benefits by getting the work at a cheaper price in which the legitimate companies cannot afford to give. So when I see that Kerry wants to increase taxes for those legitimate companies who are paying above board, give health insurance benefits, and who are providing work, and who are running a good business legally, I just get very defensive. And maybe that is why you are seeing so many dishonest sole propietors.... Maybe they are sick of the circumstances and are doing whatever they can to protect their hard earned money. Or maybe those dishonest business owners are the gypsies I mentioned above. Either way, I see the legitimate, honest business owners being hurt by this and ultimately the employees since the owners won't be able to afford healthcare and such.

Anyway, thanks Amanda for reaching out to me once again. I look forward to reading your posts in the future.

Edited to add: We are a corporation so Kerry's tax hike wouldn't affect our business taxes. Well at least not the tax over $200,000 personal income hike, but I am sure he'll hit us somewhere else. I was just mentioning small businesses because I realize how they will get hit and I see the benefits they are adding to our economy and hate to see them get hit so hard.

 

[Disney Enthusiast]

Businesses are taxed on their profit (after expenses) not on their gross or net income.

Really?!? Thanks for making that clear.

 

[ripleysmom]

"Really?!? Thanks for making that clear."

You're welcome.

 

[Disney Enthusiast]

Originally posted by perdidobay
What's worse than Kerry's comment is the US vs THEM game he and the democrats are playing...a classic game of class warfare.... ie.. all those rich old meanies who make $$$$$ and don't care about you, the little guy.
So what do we want to do in America?? Do we really want to tax to death the people who went without and lived below their means to have money for retirement and leave some money to their children and grandchildren?
What a way to encourage people to try to advance their careers and save money!
If someone works harder and makes more money than most people ( by the way, almost all millionaires in the USA are first generation rich, meaning THEY worked hard and saved all their life),
is it fair to take a larger % of their income, when just by the fact they make lots more in income they are already paying more into the system?
In my opinion, no. And I would venture a guess that those people in the lower and middle classes who work hard to get ahead for their families sake, lived frugally, and saved all their lives and ended up being one of those " wealthy" people, they would feel the same way.

Good point and you just reminded me of something. A small business owner rarely has 401K put aside or pension plans or such. The business owner must put that money aside for him/herself for retirement. The small business owner also usually pays for healthcare out of pocket. Whereas when you work for a company, you have a better chance of getting some type of retirement plan and healthcare provided. So the poor business owner must fend for him/herself and now the taxes will increase, which will leave less money for retirement, healthcare, and educations for the children. A business owner can't just retire when he/she turns 65. The business owner must keep working forever because there is no pension coming. The only way to retire is to put something aside for the future. There is no big company pay out to depend on. So taxing these people even more, will hinder their retirement plans IMHO.

 

[Island_Lauri]

Originally posted by Disney Enthusiast
Good point and you just reminded me of something. A small business owner rarely has 401K put aside or pension plans or such. The business owner must put that money aside for him/herself for retirement. The small business owner also usually pays for healthcare out of pocket. Whereas when you work for a company, you have a better chance of getting some type of retirement plan and healthcare provided. So the poor business owner must fend for him/herself and now the taxes will increase, which will leave less money for retirement, healthcare, and educations for the children. A business owner can't just retire when he/she turns 65. The business owner must keep working forever because there is no pension coming. The only way to retire is to put something aside for the future. There is no big company pay out to depend on. So taxing these people even more, will hinder their retirement plans IMHO.

Obviously I didn't make it clear enough for you. What you are not getting is that Kerry said he would only roll back the tax cut on those individuals making $200,000 or more. When you are talking about a small business being taxed, they would only be affected if their PROFIT was $200,000 or more and it was reported through their personal taxes - as in an "S" corporation or as a sole proprietor.

I run a small business with my husband. Our business gross income is about $500000. We pay our health insurance premium, our salaries, put money into our SIMPLE (retirement) account and pay all our other business expenses and THEN we pay tax on what is left - the profit.

From Factcheck.org:

"Bush once again claimed 900,000 "small businesses" would see a tax increase under Kerry's proposal to raise taxes only on persons making over $200,000 a year. As we showed earlier , that's an inflated number. The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center calculates that 471,000 small employers would see an increase in taxes."

"Actually, Kerry proposes no specific tax increase on small businesses at all, and in fact is proposing some targeted tax cuts for small businesses. What the Bush ad refers to is Kerry's proposal to raise taxes on individuals making more than $200,000 per year."

"Republicans count any individual as a "small business owner" who reports even as little as $1 of income from a sole proprietorship (reported on schedule "C" of federal income-tax returns), a partnership, or a "Subchapter S" corporation (one with fewer than 75 stockholders). In fact, the majority of those being counted as "small businesses" are really individuals who aren't primarily business owners, and a huge number have no employees."

"Who Would Not Be Affected

Bush's own Treasury Department estimates that a total of 33 million "small businesses" benefited from the Bush tax cuts on individuals, but most of them are in lower tax brackets. So -- even accepting the 900,000 figure used in the Bush ad -- that leaves more than 32 million "small businesses" not affected by an increase in the top rates on individuals.

It should also be noted that Kerry is proposing several tax cuts specifically targeted to small businesses, including a refundable tax credit aimed at reducing the cost of health-care benefits, eliminating capital-gains taxes for "long-term investments" held for five or more years in small businesses, and a "new jobs tax credit" for small businesses that add new jobs in 2005 and 2006. What Kerry is proposing for small business can be found on his website."

 

[Disney Enthusiast]

Originally posted by Island_Lauri
Obviously I didn't make it clear enough for you. " [/B]

There is no need to be rude w/ your fellow Disers.

I just don't have time to get into this with you. All I can do is speak from my experience on the matter. I am certainly no expert. But obviously, according to you, you are. Since I am not a sole propietorship I will have to give you a win on this one.

I will not be able to debate w/ you on this further as I am being beckoned by my children. But I do hope you have a nice evening and I'll see you again on the boards when I get more time.

 

[Island_Lauri]

Originally posted by Disney Enthusiast
There is no need to be rude w/ your fellow Disers.

I just don't have time to get into this with you. All I can do is speak from my experience on the matter. I am certainly no expert. But obviously, according to you, you are. Since I am not a sole propietorship I will have to give you a win on this one.

I will not be able to debate w/ you on this further as I am being beckoned by my children. But I do hope you have a nice evening and I'll see you again on the boards when I get more time.

I did not mean to come across as being rude to you. I was reacting to your "rolled eyes" remark in an earlier post which was directed at me. I am not claiming to be "an expert" - I am only trying to point out that the hysteria about rolling back the tax cuts on individuals making more than $200,000 a year is not going to affect the vast majority of small businesses. That is all.